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Jake

Idle News Podblast - 06/18/09: With Cheese Plate

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the shambling remains of two separate recordings present... this blast! to your face

"With Cheese Plate"

Where we come from the games beat themseles. There's a shaved Muppet around every corner, and Samus Aran can't shut up. It will please you, with a depth that might surprise you. Featuring Steve Gaynor as Mr. Dream.

Games Discussed: Cryostasis, Shadowgrounds, Penumbra: Overture, Blueberry Garden, Dead Space: Extraction, Peggle (iPhone), Doom 3, Nintendo Help

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Edited by Jake

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I got Cryostasis a while back (Dave Snider gave it a positive review on Giant Bomb, and I was pretty much won over by a single very striking screenshot), and played an hour or two of it. It had its faults, but had some fantastic atmosphere to it. Just before I left it, though, there had been a flashback cutscene that appeared to be elaborating on the plot. I haven't got as far as any explanations about the psychic powers yet, but that sounds like a further disappointment. I really like the eerie near-silence you occupy when wandering the ship, juxtaposed with the chaos happening in the flashback. It gives a really good sense of the unsettling calm after a cataclysmic event, and is a really efficient way of describing an event without resorting to verbally communicating it. I don't have a problem with wordy plot stuff, but I think there's room for other methods of storytelling, and kind of wish those paths were explored more thoroughly. I think games are uniquely capable of keeping long periods without dialogue interesting; one of the main things I loved about Shadow of the Colossus was that it felt like a story that couldn't have been told in that format in any other medium. Perhaps that's overstating my case a little -- you could probably make a really good film that follows its format pretty closely if you were willing to sink masses of money into an art house project (not Shadow and the Colossus) -- but I do feel like the method of delivery actually had some influence on how I felt about the story.

Anyway, I liked what I played of Cryostasis, and I really need to come back and play more, but I definitely agree with THE REMO about wanting developers having a bit more faith in their audience and possibly themselves, and daring to be a bit more minimal about things.

And yeah, I love the whole not-quite-knowing-what-it-is-you're-experiencing thing, too.

Speaking more generally, I kind of wish some developers would be willing to let go a bit more in general. For example, I think the GTA games would be improved if Rockstar weren't determined for you to experience all the stuff they've designed for a particular mission. By all means, include all the trucks dropping logs in front of me during chase sequences and so on, but if I find a way to kill the guy before the chase has even begun, let that happen too. I know some people argue for the opposite. For example, I listened to a podcast in which Garnett Lee was getting really wound up about accidentally missing a bunch of quests in Fallout 3 because he happened to talk to the right/wrong person in Rivet City. His stance was "well that must mean that they don't care about any of that content". I can understand that (I have on occasion tried to consume everything single thing a game has to offer), but that stance is incompatible with truly open gameplay. In GTA, the world might be open, but the story essentially is not. Which I suppose is fine, but I'd like to feel a bit more like I'm making my own way.

That has barely anything to do with this podcast. Sorry.

Incidentally, are you aware of the technical problems some people have been having with it? Apparently it only utilizes a single core of multiple-core processors or something. That seems pretty dumb, but it ran OK for me.

Great blast, by the way.

Edited by JamesM

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Great blast, but I don't understand the criticism of Nintendo's new help feature. I believe such a feature should have been in every game for a long time.

Just to give you one example of its use: My sister loves jump'n'run games and she's not really bad at playing them... but not great either. So every time she got stuck (which happens a lot), she's had only two choices so far -- either wait a month or so and ask me to help her out. Or stop playing the game altogether, even if she had spend 60 bucks on it and was only able to see the first five levels. None of these choices are resonable, are they? Can you imagine a movie stop working because you didn't get the plot twist at the end of act one? Course you can't but isn't it almost the same?

And I do believe that the absence of such a feature keeps many "casual gamers" from playing more difficult games. My mother owns a DS but hasn't used it for much except Brain Age and a few puzzle games. She likes adventure games too but when I ask her if she doesn't wanna play one, she tells me she won't be able to finish it anyway. Obviously, she could visit GameFAQs for hints but even if I showed her, she wouldn't do it, and I understand why. It's stupid and it makes you feel stupid.

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Ahaha holy crap I love the time warp/dream sequence audio coming out of the steak clip.

Nintendo: Top Ghosts for Everyone

I think I was listening to the Giant Bombcast and they made a good point about the help feature, being that the difficulty in platformers is gradually scaled up over time and skipping over portions might be subtly depriving you of the skills you'll be needing later in the game. Personally I think it could go either way at this point, we don't really know much of anything in regards to implementation or whatever but I have to agree with Sloane, I have no problem with this. I don't care if we get more "crappy" casual games if it means more people play video games. I think that's a worthy cause.

That being said, I would use Nintendo's Help feature all the time if it was accompanied by a snarky robotic voice.

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Everybody should once in a while grind a sweet ghost.

Now on the "I can't get pas that goomba because there is no tutorial" this is the third time I hear that this week (I read it in an article about trial and error in games and a game designer friend went on a rant lately against tutorials in games).

We all need to remember that you had one button only in mario (at the beginning). ONE so you press the button and see that mario jumps, you go forward and see the goomba, press B to fire a rocket... nothing happens so you try to dodge it.

When you meet the goomba you're likely to be under the first block line so you realize that :

1) you break blocks with your head

2)it shortens the jump so that if you wanted to dodge it, you're very very very likely to fall on it's head and discover the rest of the game's mechanics... Tada, if there is one mechanic, you can make the tutorial exploratory, for more... see the manual or insert a tutorial ^.^

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I think tutorials are probably a good thing, as I think most of us are past reading manuals, but I prefer it when they're done subtly, with minimal pop-ups and breaking of the fourth wall. I'd never really thought about it, but OssK points out that Mario did a pretty good job of conveying several of the game's few mechanics in one minute slice of gameplay. If possible, I think players should be able to learn stuff by natural experimentation. This is trickier with current games, not least because the third dimension requires mechanisms (or metaphors or whatever you want to call them) less obvious and literal than simply pushing a compass point to travel in that direction.

I was by no means new to games, but I think Portal did a pretty good job of easing the player in without being too explicit about it. You get a few button prompts, and beyond that you're introduced to ideas such that initially they're completely obvious, and gradually you come upon situations where you have to recall the techniques you've previously been using. I suppose its puzzle nature separates it somewhat from action games, but I think the principle can be applied elsewhere, and to lesser or greater degrees, it is. It's jarring to have a dialogue window pop up over the action, and possibly even pause it, although I can see why, for example, inFamous can't demonstrate a concept as abstract as the morality mechanic through gameplay alone, particularly since the meter has several components to it. Nevertheless, I kind of feel like if it was just impressed upon the player that moral choices had practical effects on your character and the world, players could observe the finer points for themselves. Perhaps I'm assuming too much intuition for this sort of thing -- I think the main dividing line between the technologically literate and illiterate is not specific knowledge, but an intuition for the conventions of interface design and so on (my mother has on several occasions asked me how I remember how to do all the things that come naturally to a computer user, when in fact I probably don't; I just work it out as I go along) -- but on the other hand I think wordy explanations are pretty intimidating to a novice user. When you lay everything out in words, it looks like there's an awful lot of stuff to remember.

Sorry, I never got around to the actual Nintendo thing, and now I have to go.

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this is a comment

(just letting you know I watched while listening to the show)

wait... that's not how it happened...

rewinding all the way back to episode #7, where that joke was also made numerous times

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haha. the ending is brilliant.

but you totally failed in talking about Penumbra.

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I want to share your skepticism of Metroid: Other M. The first promotional screenshot showed Samus bodyslamming a lizard, of all things. The Other M trailer looks story-heavy, and Samus's soliloquies from Metroid Fusion were the weakest part of that game.

But I used up all of my Metroid skepticism on the Metroid Prime series. I ignored all of those games when they were released---I didn't want a first person shooter! But so many people have reported that the Prime series gets the exploration right---that it "feels" like Metroid---that I feel I must give the games their due. I plan on buying the Trilogy in August.

Other M has a completely separate set of issues that turn me off, but instead of jaundiced skepticism, I will treat this game with cautious optimism.

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I admit, the Other M trailer got me very excited. I know there's a faction of purists out there who didn't want any parts in the Prime series because it went first person, some of those are proclaiming that this is the return to what made Metroid great. This Poochy guy seems a little crazy to me.

I on the other hand never had a problem with the transition to 3D, I just like Metroid games, so I'll be there when the new game (hopes for a name change) comes out. The only thing I worry about is the follow up: "Extreme Samus Beach Volleyball" with 1 to 1 jiggling. :buyme:

About the help thing. I swear that I read something to this effect a while ago.

Basically, the help feature will play through the game for you only to demonstrate the technique needed to advance. You wouldn't be able to save what the computer did. Basically, you'd be shown what to do and then have to actually complete the task yourself to advance. Does anybody else remember that bit of info, I'd love to link to it, but for all I know it was a dream I had and I'm just totally :fart:.

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I'd suggest picking up the Shooter Pack that's on STEAM right now for $20. It has Alien Shooter and Zombie Shooter, they're almost the exact same game, but they're worth the money - and they're both the isometric robotron controls. Visually they're a throwback to Diablo 2, mostly sprite, but mostly sprite, and the nice thing about that is the persistence of gore, and some of the levels have over 1000 monsters in it, and they die quite nicely. Most of the levels are wall to wall red by the time you're done.

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I admit, the Other M trailer got me very excited. I know there's a faction of purists out there who didn't want any parts in the Prime series because it went first person, some of those are proclaiming that this is the return to what made Metroid great. This Poochy guy seems a little crazy to me.

I on the other hand never had a problem with the transition to 3D, I just like Metroid games, so I'll be there when the new game (hopes for a name change) comes out. The only thing I worry about is the follow up: "Extreme Samus Beach Volleyball" with 1 to 1 jiggling. :buyme:

About the help thing. I swear that I read something to this effect a while ago.

Basically, the help feature will play through the game for you only to demonstrate the technique needed to advance. You wouldn't be able to save what the computer did. Basically, you'd be shown what to do and then have to actually complete the task yourself to advance. Does anybody else remember that bit of info, I'd love to link to it, but for all I know it was a dream I had and I'm just totally :fart:.

Yeah, I remember that. I heard they were considering it for the next Zelda, but if it comes up early, whatever. It's not like they're forcing me to use it.

I'm not really sure about Other M personally. Cautious optimism seems like a good frame of mind for it. I was secretly hoping for more Prime or maybe a new DS one, but this also looks rad.

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Yeah, I remember that. I heard they were considering it for the next Zelda, but if it comes up early, whatever. It's not like they're forcing me to use it.

Haha, that's funny, because on the secret Pirate board Telltale opened for TOMI, David Grossman just got done saying Zelda does a good job of holding your hand.

EDIT: I forgot my standard, "No worthwhile comments, but what a great episode!" Really though, these just get better and better every week. It's a highlight of my workweek, although I don't know if that makes me pathetic.

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I'm not actually sure what that bombcast thing referred to is. Always sometimes never? Anyone have a link?

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Cool that you're enjoying Cryostasis. I had quite the emotional ride with it myself, and actually did a little piece on it(plug, plug, plug).

I agree that I like games that actually give the player the benefit of the doubt instead of handholding them like an idiot. Valve does that to some extent with their level design, but most games don't even bother.

While I do enjoy these East European oddities like Cryostasis, Boiling Point, King's Bounty, STALKER, etc. especially for them taking interesting risks and having a more old school hardcore PC gaming feel then most mainstream titles think they can get away with, I also fret that I enjoy them despite their inevitable performance issues and bugs and translation oddities (although Cryostasis is shocking well translated and acted, all things considered).

While I'm impressed that their ambition always goes beyond their budget, I also acknowledge that most people are understandably not patient enough to accept the technical problems and outdated design choices. Even The Witcher took a year to give it's game an acceptable level of polish, and that was only because the game had a surprising amount of success. I guess I wonder if things will improve as these small Eastern Bloc countries, primarily Russia, become more used to the developing tools and make progress, or if things will get worse as sales continue to be low but bigger budgets are required to compete. Right now, it's looking like they may be the saviours of traditional PC gaming so I hope it'll be the former.

Also, you can save the cow's life!

Incidentally, are you aware of the technical problems some people have been having with it? Apparently it only utilizes a single core of multiple-core processors or something. That seems pretty dumb, but it ran OK for me.

It certainly is a resource hog, no doubt about it. But it utilizes multi-core processors just fine according to several sites that tested it. I wouldn't take much stock from those claims, they come from the same people who thought the "special PhysX patch only recommended for high-end Nvidia cards" was just being discriminatory and unfair, then found it somewhere other then the Nvidia site and installed it, and then complained about how it was clearly a bad patch for making performance worse for them and their mid-range ATI cards.

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Great cast guys! Thoroughly enjoyable, I listened twice.

Scoops' Cryostasis cow story reminded me of the cow launch in the first level of Earthworm Jim, mostly because it's another random inclusion of a cow in a video game. In Earthworm Jim didn't the cow come back during the last boss fight? I haven't played Cryostasis but imagine an elaborate side-quest where you can in fact save the cow from its grim fate.

On Blueberry Garden:

I played a bunch of this and liked it quite a bit. I agree with Chris that at first glance, or in a trailer, this game appears to be totally aimless and weird much like Noby Noby Boy. Upon playing the game however, actual gameplay objectives become readily apparent after not long and any resemblance to Noby Noby Boy's "toybox" model disappears. I now find the game more akin to something like Knytt, which is also a kind of 2D collect-a-thon with interesting environments and a central starting point. If you haven't played it, it's free to download here: http://nifflas.ni2.se/ (the site is currently down).

On Metroid Other M:

I'm not holding my breath. I can't help but think this will be nothing more than Ninja Gaiden with a Metroid skin, right down to the terrible first-person shooting mechanics and groan-worthy dialogue and cutscenes. Even the title screams "bad anime".

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I too fall into the Steam discount trap. I have both Freedom Force games and the three Penumbra games on my laptop, and I'll probably never get around to really spending time with any of them.

I'll play Penumbra - and I really am interested in Chris's thoughts on those games - but I'll probably never get around to Freedom Force because I remember how slow its early stages are.

It sounds like Jake, Chris, and I are sharing classic cases of buyer's remorse, which is particularly acute because these games are so cheap and disposable. $1 for Peggle or Super Monkey Ball? Sure! $5 for the three Penumbra games? Sure again! Who cares that I really don't have time to play any of them? They're as expensive as a footlong sandwich from Subway!

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Regarding today's blast: I don't hate you Jake, regardless of how much you suck

Edited by JamesM

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I think it should be called a "Pod Splatter", because it's not a single blast, but multiple smaller blasts.

And I think the worst company name must be "EDGE Games". Although "Thatgamecompany" is also a terrible name.

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Regarding today's blast: I don't hate you Jake, regardless of how much you suck

Jake is the best, he and Vinny (of GiantBomb fame, who actually kinda has a similar voice...) are two of my favorite game podcast people for reasons that will remain a mystery.

But to be honest, disembodied robot jerk voice is rising through the ranks fairly quickly...

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