toblix

Mass Effect 2

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The pre-rendered cut scenes are done with the in game engine, I prefer that over renderings which bear no semblance to what you are actually seeing.

The thing is that a lot of the cut-scenes were spaceship stuff, and the engine was much better at rendering people than outer space stuff.

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I agree with Coldkill: I think Mass Effect was a groundbreaking game.

I can't think of any RPG where the player character was so directly in the game world. I felt like I could shape the main character's personality in a cool way. I'd tease Liara for being a nerd, and I'd hit on Kaidan and watch him squirm, and have Ashley as my wing-man at all times because I thought she was the coolest character. I really enjoyed the interaction with these three characters in particular.

I think a lot of people might have had less fun because Liara is such a nerd that it's no fun trying get romantically involved with her, but people just wanted to see the sex scene.

Then the combat: I really enjoyed it. It had all the things I like about shooters, but slowed down to the point where I could understand what was going on. That's a really good, mainstreamed RPG combat system. I played Vanguard by the way, which may be the funnest combat class, so maybe other people didn't play the same fights that I did.

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I have to agree about the character aspects. I think the game hit a perfect balance between Japanese RPG 'pre-rendered' player-character and western RPG 'blank slate' player-character. No silent protagonist problems, no unbelievable interactions, no disassociation. As blackboxme said, Shepherd really fits into the world just s much as the NPCs, but while still giving you control of him/her. Excellent dialogue scenes help this.

So yeah, I'd say it was groundbreaking in terms of game dialogue presentation and systems. Other areas were more flawed.

I recommend playing female renegade by the way, for the best voice acting, drama and internal logic.

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I have to agree about the character aspects. I think the game hit a perfect balance between Japanese RPG 'pre-rendered' player-character and western RPG 'blank slate' player-character. No silent protagonist problems, no unbelievable interactions, no disassociation. As blackboxme said, Shepherd really fits into the world just s much as the NPCs, but while still giving you control of him/her. Excellent dialogue scenes help this.

So yeah, I'd say it was groundbreaking in terms of game dialogue presentation and systems. Other areas were more flawed.

I recommend playing female renegade by the way, for the best voice acting, drama and internal logic.

Completely agreed, lady badass is the only way to play imo, I was really put off by the male Shepherd a lot of the time.

<monotone> Conservative hopefulness, I've had my fingers crossed for an Elcor companion since the first time I spoke to one at the Citadel.</monotone>

From the wiki - "The slow speed and immense size of the elcor makes them easy targets. Fortunately, their durable hide allows them to shrug off most incoming fire. Elcor warriors don't carry small arms; their broad shoulders serve as a stable platform for the same size of weapons typically mounted on Alliance fighting vehicles."

ME2 is getting bigger weapons than the first and having an Elcor buddy would be a kickass venue for a heavy weapons platform.

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Female Renegade was definitely the way to go. I LOVED the voice acting for the female Shepard - especially when she was being a cold, calculated bitch.

On my first playthrough - I went as the default male Shepard - just to get a sense of what the game designers intended. I played him pretty middle of the road, asshole with a heart of gold, Han Solo style. I really really enjoyed it.

But then, I made a vampy female protagonist and fucking loved it beyond measure. Definitely one of the most enjoyable game experiences of my lifetime. The character that I had created so perfectly fit the voice.

Taste is subjective. This experience was meaningful and enjoyable to me beyond many of the games being held up as "better" or more innovative games. That's fine if you think that those are better, and I'm certainly not going to try to convince you otherwise.

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Didn't like Fable, although that list is far too short!

What?! So your point was Mass Effect was "groundbreaking" (meaning "especially innovative") in the area of character development. I point out a list of games that came out before it with similar attributes... and you complain the list is too short?

Man, the internet can really get you down sometimes.

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But then, I made a vampy female protagonist and fucking loved it beyond measure. Definitely one of the most enjoyable game experiences of my lifetime. The character that I had created so perfectly fit the voice.

Wow, that's the power of voice acting for you! I had no idea! Makes me want to play it again...

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<monotone> Conservative hopefulness, I've had my fingers crossed for an Elcor companion since the first time I spoke to one at the Citadel.</monotone>

I see HK-47 sized potential in this idea

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In other games, a dialog tree is more like a computer terminal that you run queries on to get info or complete a quest. In Mass Effect, you can bust people's balls, make jokes, lend a sympathetic ear, yell at people, etc. just for the fun of interacting with the other characters.

Also, I agree with you DanJW, about how it solves all those player character problems: it solves the Grand Theft Auto problem.

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What?! So your point was Mass Effect was "groundbreaking" (meaning "especially innovative") in the area of character development. I point out a list of games that came out before it with similar attributes... and you complain the list is too short?

Man, the internet can really get you down sometimes.

I think we're arguing that Mass Effect did it a bit differently from those games. IE, you could shape the character, but the character also has an inherent personality and history that's separate from the player. In most games, the character is more of a blank slate. When I look at my Shepherd, I know she's gone through some bad times that I don't know about. Maybe that's because she's well voice acted, and most times the player character isn't voice acted in games like this.

Never played planescape torment tho, so maybe that's similar.

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What?! So your point was Mass Effect was "groundbreaking" (meaning "especially innovative") in the area of character development. I point out a list of games that came out before it with similar attributes... and you complain the list is too short?

Man, the internet can really get you down sometimes.

Thank you for the list, I wasn't complaining at you, rather to developers that make games that are not on the list. ME was a very immersive game because it had a mixture of you being able to mould your character and their personality and then develop that through choices you made. Should all games not be like that?

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In other games, a dialog tree is more like a computer terminal that you run queries on to get info or complete a quest. In Mass Effect, you can bust people's balls, make jokes, lend a sympathetic ear, yell at people, etc. just for the fun of interacting with the other characters.

Correct me if I'm wrong - as I haven't played it recently so perhaps I've forgotten all the cool stuff you could do - but most, if not all, encounters with other characters were very stale history lessons where they lectured you repeatedly about stuff that would have been nice to have been introduced to subtly rather than hit over the head with... and when you did get to say something it was almost always in spite of your chosen selection. I can't remember how many times I selected one dialogue choice only to hear my player character say something completely different - sort of rendering my selection rather meaningless! In fact I did a couple of playthroughs and many of the options available actually end up going down the exact same path, which admittedly isn't unique to Mass Effect, but still happened more often than it should have given the limited responses available.

Like most Bioware games there were a couple of junctures were you could make some real decisions with real impact but they were few and far between - and again something we've seen done just as well, if not better in other games. I could hit that guy over the head, yeah, but it didn't mean anything - my NPC companians didn't object and leave, my good'ometer didn't suffer considerably and the world didn't react to me any differently. Taken in that context, and coupled with the scarcity with which you could make similar impactful decisions it didn't feel as though I was moulding a character or making important choices - but rather playing an interactive adventure with some middling combat and (stupid) vehicle sections thrown inbetween.

...as far as the player coming across as a genuine character I agree completely, but I never felt as though I had any real control over their personality or behavior. I like where Bioware are headed with this Mass Effect style of game, but I don't think it's fair to compare it to other games featuring dialgoue whilst ignoring the defecencies in comparison.

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most, if not all, encounters with other characters were very stale history lessons where they lectured you repeatedly about stuff that would have been nice to have been introduced to subtly rather than hit over the head with...

I ran into this a little bit, and here's how it breaks down

upper left - charisma

upper right - sympathy/paragon

left - backstory

right - all business

lower left - intimidation

lower right - ball busting/lone wolf

Going to the left too much turns shepherd into a nerd. Only choose left if you are genuinely interested in hearing backstory.

Yeah, most of the paths end up with similar results, but the important thing for me is that my Shepherd is a believable character. I had a lot of fun with that. With Wrex, I'd be a hard-ass because he obviously likes that; I'd tease Liara and Kaidan because they are nerds; I'd be bff's with with Ashley; and I'd occasionally yell at/hang up on the council when they were being dumb.

In other words, it's not the freedom to make "significant choices," it's about making social interaction more fun and more realistic.

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Yeah, you're not so much free to make decisions, as you are free to choose your own motivations and attitudes. I liked that, since in most games actual choice is an illusion anyway, and often the character motivations and attitudes don't make as much sense.

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most, if not all, encounters with other characters were very stale history lessons where they lectured you repeatedly about stuff that would have been nice to have been introduced to subtly rather than hit over the head with...
I ran into this a little bit, and here's how it breaks down
Just a little?... :hmph:

Sometimes you want to play the game, to learn a bit about the character, their situation or the errand they are sending you on, but instead of getting the fantastic range of responses that were present in other games like Fallout or Baldurs Gate they transformed instead into the exact same history school teacher and proceeded to lay it on thick and lecture me. I play the game, and the history lessons were disguised as a part of that game. I suffered through them but would have preferred more subtlety.

I had enough trouble with certain choices not reflecting what was actually written to bother with this whole 'left = nerd' business.

Yeah, most of the paths end up with similar results, but the important thing for me is that my Shepherd is a believable character. I had a lot of fun with that. With Wrex, I'd be a hard-ass because he obviously likes that; I'd tease Liara and Kaidan because they are nerds; I'd be bff's with with Ashley; and I'd occasionally yell at/hang up on the council when they were being dumb.

You can do everything you've said in other games, even those with greater freedom and significance placed on your choices. As best as I can tell all you're really complimenting here is the strength of Biowares characters, which as anybody who's played their previous games is surely already aware. So I don't know, it just seems odd to me that in praising Mass Effect you are denigrating other games that did things differently, not worse.

In other words, it's not the freedom to make "significant choices," it's about making social interaction more fun and more realistic.

Ignoring how some of the dialogue choices you make end up translating into something completely different (and so far as I'm aware; Sheperd is not a social retard); how is it any more realistic and fun? The only thing I can think is because the character is fully voiced. It would make some sense as previous Bioware titles had similar strong characters and interaction between them - but also the silent protagonist problem Dan mentions;

"I have to agree about the character aspects. I think the game hit a perfect balance between Japanese RPG 'pre-rendered' player-character and western RPG 'blank slate' player-character. No silent protagonist problems, no unbelievable interactions, no disassociation. As blackboxme said, Shepherd really fits into the world just s much as the NPCs, but while still giving you control of him/her. Excellent dialogue scenes help this."

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So, let's get down to the nuts and bolts of this...

Are you looking for someone to talk you into enjoying this game, or are you trying to talk people out of enjoying it?

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:fart:

I think my point is pretty clear. I'm in a Mass Effect thread, I responded to a Mass Effect post, and I'm discussing Mass Effect. If I'm not joining in the revisionist love-in then that's simply because I don't see the benefit in championing the game over others whilst ignoring its flaws and deficiencies in comparison. I actually agree with what everyone has said, I just don't like the idea that other games which do things differently are somehow lesser for it - and I didn't like the way in which it was expressed; i.e with a description that works equally well for Fallout and Baldurs Gate as I already mentioned.

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Well, then it appears we've entered an infinite loop from which there can be no escape - as I refer you to my previous post :P

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Cigol: I think Shepherd is handled in an interesting way, and the social interaction was on a whole new level for me because my character was so well portrayed. If you disagree, that's fine, I haven't played every great PC RPG yet, and I might agree with you if I'd played some game or another.

In case you're wondering, Fallout 2 is my favorite RPG of all time.

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Anyways...how 'bout that there Mass Effect 2? GT just put up a dev interview and holy shit, spoilers be damned (we're talking end-game possibilities here, wow) it looks really good. It also has bonus rockin' dev-'stache action!

Looks like the dialogue "interrupt" system is juiced up, as in, "I don't like what you're sayin', hows about I kick you out this window". Mako exploration looks improved as well, you can scan planets for interesting or mineral rich environments before descending to explore them (looks like they addressed complaints in regards to boring random height-map planets, what is shown in the video looks quite interesting and scenic).

Feel free to return to Mass Effect 1 arguing mode if this doesn't interest you. :getmecoat

Edited by Shakesbeard

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Anyways...how 'bout that there Mass Effect 2? GT just put up a dev interview and holy shit, spoilers be damned (we're talking end-game possibilities here, wow) it looks really good. It also has bonus rockin' dev-'stache action!

When I saw that video, I just wanted to shout, "NERDS!"

Wasn't Mass Effect Bioware's first Next-Gen game? That's kind of crazy, since there's usually a big step up between the first and second game you do on a new console.

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Rather than digging up a much older thread, and since the discussion seems more skewed towards ME1, I'll add this here.

I downloaded and started playing the new Pinnacle Station DLC last night, and am enjoying it - because it's like hanging out with an old friend I haven't spoken to in a long while.

If you don't like the combat in Mass Effect, you won't like this at all. It's basically a high-scoreboard, arcade-y take on it - where the challenge is to beat NPC's time/score in VR missions. And that's about it.

But, like I said - I'm enjoying it.

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