Borderlands

[JonCole]

Money and ammo should automatically pick up, looting bodies is different. Weapons would probably be best if they did a quick pop up mentioning: value strength etc. I know not how it works in Borderlands and Don't feel the need to, with my hatred of the small amount of time I have played it.

There is a quick pop-up showing item descriptions, as you mentioned. And to be fair, you can pick up all the ammo and money on-screen at once if you hold down the pick up button for a couple seconds.

[Murdoc]

So just because Prince of Persia has black outlines and the texture has intense lighting contrast, does not mean it's cel shaded. No traditional cel animation has looked like that, so therefore it would not be a look they are trying to achieve.

I know my lengthy gibberish wasn't too clear, but most of my original point was that comparing it to traditional cel animation is pointless, since the term no longer reflects the origin it came from.

or many to just collectively take it upon themselves to redefine what cel shading means would make even less sense. If you want to include Team Fortress 2 and Prince of Persia in the definition, it's going to create confusion of what is a very clear cut look that is achieved by certain shading processes.

Agreed that it does create a bit of confusion, but I think a lot of that has to do with the nonacceptance of the societal use of the definition. This, specifically, might be a separate study on the English language, but if the majority of society is using a word, whether it's to the proper definition or not, then the definition in my eyes has changed.

This is the case for cel shading, I believe. Rather then make up 100 different terms for several little variations in shader properties, it's easier to use a blanket term and get most people on board with what you're trying to convey. So even if everyone gets on board with one definition, it's still a bit confusing since it's a blanket term; but what other way in human history is there? We need to categorize these things some how.

I don't understand why you are justifying making blanket definitions because artists can't be bothered to create new ones? How is even true to say artists can't be bothered as the reason? Just because we don't have a definition for the painterly/comic book style color that incorporates high contrast with heavy texture and detail, doesn't mean it should just be called cel shaded since there is no other term available. If anything, I would say to give these new combo 3D looks emerging a new term that doesn't incorporate references to cel animation at all.

Because it's easier to remember instead of memorizing jargon? I'll be less discriminatory in my comments and say people, not just artists can't/shouldn't be bothered.

It's like when people say painterly style or comic book style; what does this even mean? Is it Rapheal, Rembrandt, Van gogh, Sargent, or Rockwell style? Is it Kirby, Ross, McFarlane, Lee, or Miller style? They may use a similar medium, but the results are incredibly different, so we need to categorize it somehow or we'll go insane trying to remember everything.

Kind of see what I'm getting at here?

Also on a technical side, you might be overly simplifying what's going on with the shaders in some games by narrowing it down to contrast of colour and specular. While the output might look like that's what's going on, you can really delve deep into it and as I mentioned there are infinite possibilities with it. Again, see Valves GDC talk(their notes are posted up somewhere online) about TF2 to get a bit of an idea as it was a pretty tech heavy discussion.

If anything, I would say to give these new combo 3D looks emerging a new term that doesn't incorporate references to cel animation at all.

Somewhat disagree with this, most of the goals for a lot of games with the "new combo 3d look" are actually trying to mimic rules, processes, or general "look/feel" of already established methods used in illustration, painting, animation, etc...

So yeah, the attempt is going after something more then the origin of cel shading, but again, blanket term is easier, even if some people consider it incorrect.

First, it kind of pisses me off you are saying, "Disney's 2D look," when the shrewd businessman Walt Disney had nothing to do with the invention of how cartoons were to be drawn and shaded to efficiently create characters and their movements for the big screen

No arguments here. However, to defend my usage, Chris used the term Disney, so I was following an example to get everyone on board. Once again, a blanket term that helps convey a message most people can understand even if it is incorrect to the origin.

So what if someone created a 3D environment where half the world was textured one way with hard flat lighting and the other half was textured traditionally and realistically? Would you call it cel shading just because some elements are in there? If a painter incorporated comic book style panels on his large canvas illustration, would you call it a comic book?

Hard to say, but I bet it would end up being called a mix. As mentioned cel shading is just a valid blanket term as "comic book" style or painter style, so if a game could convincingly combine all these together you could call it a mix of cel shading, comic book, painter styles... but at that point maybe we could just use the word surreal.

On second thought maybe not; what would south park be called as a style? It uses all of those + live action video and/or photos.

It's true you can incorporate other shading effects within a cel shaded look, but you can start to lose the look of something traditionally animated really quick when you have gradient lighting or bump mapping going on. Cartoons just don't look like that.

Sort of, but that depends what traditional animated look you intended it to look like; also besides my original point that I didn't get across that the term cel shading no longer means mimicking traditional cel animation.

Because the technical backup is unnecessary. I could go into 3DSMax right now and explain every technical detail describing my cel shading method and it wouldn't make a world of difference difference. I could sit here and argue with you that phong is not a good setting for cel shading at all, because it's more accustomed to shiny surfaces, and it would not make a difference to what defines cel shading. There is of course an Ink and Paint preset in Max that you can use for a cel shaded look or you could mess with the settings and create it yourself, but it's all about the cohesiveness of a look in the end.

It sort of actually is necessary and I have no intention of being rude or insulting when I say this, but I don't think if you've looked into the technical side of things enough based on your comics.

You could argue that phong is not a good setting for cel shading, but you would be wrong (I know that may have been an arbitrary example and I'm not taking it literally) but without looking at the underlying mathematical equations that fuels a shader, there is literally no difference in the output of a blinn, phong, lambert, or "cel" shader, only the inputs and values associated with them.

And just to define what I mean by "output" in that last paragraph, is what you call "the cohesiveness of the look in the end" there is absolutely no difference between the shaders if you go beyond the preset input and values; except in the back end (code).

Also, I'm not a programmer or a technical artist, so my understanding to achieve a final result (good looking game art) could be completely wrong and scewed; but the technical side to what we do is more then a job or hobby so I feel fairly confident in my answers being correct on the tech side of things.

As far as the "what's in a definition" that's mostly opinion on the English language, but also from my experience with other artists, teaching, and working between various engines and programs; definitions are a completely grey area in 3d right now.

***

Also I have started it up, finally, to play some more.

I've never really had a fps disorient me so much and make me feel wobbly(with the exception of stalker before I modded the headbob stuff) So I'm unsure if it's camera, fov or the style they went with.

Presentation wise it's pretty low brow and semi annoying, but I am enjoying the game and they aren't smashing me with boring details so I don't mind. As I described the starting to a friend

"So I'm in this bus with cousin roman listening to some crap rock from 1995 watching the credits like in gta4 when some live action photoshop filtered girl starts talking to me in a window, then I get off the bus to meet GIR from invader zim so he can give me a tutorial." (A bit harsh, but those were my first thoughts, honestly)

Also, I agree with everything toblix said; except the shooting part taking me back to R6 (never played it enough to remember)

However, it reminds me more of mass effect shooting since it has that rpg element to it; only this time it's a lot more frustrating since I can see exactly what is happening in first person.

Overall kind of liking it, but feel disoriented enough to not play for long periods of time right now.

[syntheticgerbil]

Sort of, but that depends what traditional animated look you intended it to look like; also besides my original point that I didn't get across that the term cel shading no longer means mimicking traditional cel animation.

I guess this is just my basic disagreement here. Besides naming new styles of 3D art mimicking what has already been created traditionally, I find it misleading to call any 3D technique cel shading when it is not actively trying to mimic the traditional cel art from the 1920s and on, all the technical aspects of texturing and shading that comprise the end result aside.

[Nachimir]

I like the art style, the technique reminds me of Crackdown, but more refined.

I've been utterly ensconced in this for a while, with a single player game as Mordecai and another playthrough as Brick in splitscreen with the girlfriend as Lilith. Once Brick has a few skill upgrades, an elemental power and a burst shield, running around while berserk and wailing on stuff becomes an insane amount of fun.

Also, gosh it's fun to burn things

[Murdoc]

I guess this is just my basic disagreement here. Besides naming new styles of 3D art mimicking what has already been created traditionally, I find it misleading to call any 3D technique cel shading when it is not actively trying to mimic the traditional cel art from the 1920s and on, all the technical aspects of texturing and shading that comprise the end result aside.

Nah I get ya and honestly agree with you more then my argument; it's just I tend to side with the language being used by most people even if I personally don't like it.

Hopefully with more games coming out with different techniques a new term will be used commonly.

***

Continuing to play, but something just isn't capturing me on this one. It's odd how a few mechanics I can accept in a game like Diablo or Torchlight but I just can't in a fps. Things like "barrels" with items in being respawned every time I log in (Like why does Dr.Ned keep filling his lockers full of stuff and allow me to walk in and take it?!) and the fact the world is so damn empty of civilians.

Got passed tutorial city (I was taking my time) and the driving is not fun at all, so playing short bursts at a time. The combat is getting more fun with different abilities and weapons, but it's the world that isn't getting me into it.

[toblix]

Okay, either I'm dumb as plumb, or Gearbox are. Where do I disable that I have to click OK for every ammo purchase I make?

[liquid]

I've acquired this on the PC. GameSpy is [GWJ]liquid, will be available in 2-3 days, anyone still playing low level characters?

[Korax]

AW SHIT, SON

MCWJUSulnro

For some reason, I'm reminded of Illbleed...

[racingfreak92]

For some reason, I'm reminded of Illbleed...

I like how with the promotion for the first game they legitimately thought having a billion guns was cool and now they are trying to play it off as an ironic-extreme thing.

[Justin Leego]

I like how one of the characters is called Zerzero.

[Twig]

I like how wub-wub-wub-wub-wub-wub-

[Irishjohn]

I really want it to be possible to type in "wub wub" in the PC game and get all the guns in the game.

But then have them taken away somehow, because I would have then ruined the game for myself.

[Sno]

Now that this has a confirmed release window, i feel even more need to go and play that last Borderlands DLC.

[Tommy Gun]

The only achievements/missions I have left are 3 for Mad Moxxi. It's just so long!

[Korax]

The only achievements/missions I have left are 3 for Mad Moxxi. It's just so long!

The only reason I have those is because I had a weekend with absolutely no motivation to do anything of worth. Those arenas are terrible.

[elmuerte]

Mad Moxxi is just arena stuff. I hate that more than orange/teal.

[TheLastBaron]

Was anyone here at PAX? I went to the Gearbox panel on the last day and Randy handed out cards to everyone who attended with codes for Borderlands 2. Needless to say I am excited for this game (well I already was) and I have much love for the guy.

[empika]

Just started this on PS3 as it's free on playstation plus. I like what i've played of it so far ... but maaaaaaaaaaaaaan. WTF up is up with those vehicle controls!?!? Seriously dumb

[Sno]

Just the feel of the shoddy physics? Yeah, dude. The vehicles in Borderlands suck.

In other news: I picked up the game again, started co-oping through Knoxx and Robot Revolution and then remembered that Borderlands is really kind of a pain in the ass to organize. Trying to figure out who had the least amount of progress and thus who should be host because of the inane quest ineligibility system, and realizing that having your characters more than a couple levels apart turns the game into a brutal, savage slog. (With exp auto-correcting only in a most, most gradual fashion.)

So, so glad to hear Gearbox making promises of improvements on some of those things in BL2.

[youmeyou]

I've had some hilarious arguments with my roommate when he wanted to play but I wasn't around so I requested that he only kill trash mobs and not complete any missions objectives if he absolutely had to play otherwise it would throw our whole game out of whack.

[empika]

This game seems really weirdly balanced too. anyone else find that? I've found that a bunch of the missions, i'm just not leveled up enough. Should I be grinding in between the main missions with just a bunch of those rat things or something?

[Justin Leego]

Where are you up to? There's a pretty steep grinding curve at the Bonehead mission, which is Borderlands' way of making the passive-aggressive suggestion that you go pick some cloudberries and enjoy sidequesting it up for a while.

[Sno]

This game seems really weirdly balanced too. anyone else find that? I've found that a bunch of the missions, i'm just not leveled up enough. Should I be grinding in between the main missions with just a bunch of those rat things or something?

In the early parts of the game there are some quests that are significantly harder than they apparently should be, so there's a few you should avoid until a little later in the game. (Beware the Mothrakk, do not start that quest until you are over the recommended level.)

I've had some hilarious arguments with my roommate when he wanted to play but I wasn't around so I requested that he only kill trash mobs and not complete any missions objectives if he absolutely had to play otherwise it would throw our whole game out of whack.

I ended up just running different characters for solo and for co-op.

[Sno]

So I'm just about done catching up on the DLC, and I think they're probably some of my favorite add-ons from this generation. Moxxi was a piece of shit, but the Zombie, Knoxx, and Robot Revolution packs were all really fantastic. (Robot Revolution was the only one i hadn't played, and i had some left-overs in Knoxx.)

Gearbox really did a ton of great stuff supporting this game, if you can remember how buggy and messed up the original release was. They've really convincingly stretched out the progression too, introducing a ton of new modifiers and parts into the procedural weapon creation system, and rebalancing absolutely everything to support play up to the expanded level cap.

[electricblue]

I was really slogging through this for awhile but after getting the Mine Key I feel much better about the game. I'm level 14 I think if anyone wants to play co-op, i'm electricblue on steam