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Woo, no worries, turns out I wasn't just paranoid: she just texted me saying it's over (Y) brb going to try and cry and not throw up everywhere

That sucks man. Feel better.

 

Maybe you can turn to SpeedyDesiato for comfort?

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Signed the contract on my first novel today, which makes me both very happy, and very anxious. Happy because I've been trying to publish this sucker for almost two years (it is an experimental piece of literary fiction, so not super easy to find a home for it), and anxious because they want to get it out relatively soon, which means that I'll be revising the book in the middle of a semester where I'm taking 3 classes and teaching two (a very, very full load for a PhD student), which should be a whole lot of fun. Still, this is the good kind of anxiety, I think.

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As I expected would happen at some point, my daughter came home from school the other day saying that her friend told her she was going to go to hell because she didn't believe in God. She then proceeded to tell her all about how there is a bunch of vampires and fire and scary shit in hell and that she needed to believe in God if she wanted to go to heaven when she died. So naturally, my daughter is saying she believes in God now because she is scared of going to hell.

 

So I have to now try to work on explaining to her how some people let fear run their lives and end up believing in some really silly made up stuff because they think they are going to be tortured for all of eternity if they don't. I know this is a very unpopular opinion but having been raised very religious, I think it is a form of abuse to raise your kids believing this shit. Teaching children to let fear run their lives makes for a pretty agonizing childhood.

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As I expected would happen at some point, my daughter came home from school the other day saying that her friend told her she was going to go to hell because she didn't believe in God. She then proceeded to tell her all about how there is a bunch of vampires and fire and scary shit in hell and that she needed to believe in God if she wanted to go to heaven when she died. So naturally, my daughter is saying she believes in God now because she is scared of going to hell.

 

So I have to now try to work on explaining to her how some people let fear run their lives and end up believing in some really silly made up stuff because they think they are going to be tortured for all of eternity if they don't. I know this is a very unpopular opinion but having been raised very religious, I think it is a form of abuse to raise your kids believing this shit. Teaching children to let fear run their lives makes for a pretty agonizing childhood.

Ug that is awful. In kindergarten I did the opposite to my best friend, told him there was no tooth fairy, no Santa, no Easter Bunny and no God. His mom was not happy.

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Wait, there are vampires in hell?

 

Didn't you know? God turned the Sadducees into vampires before sending them to Christian hell.

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I'd raise hell about it (well, first I'd have calm conversations, then I'd raise hell), both with the school and with the other kid's parents.  Your kid isn't the only one who will have that shit said to them by that kid, and your belief structure is as valid as anyone elses and should be given the same amount of respect. What would you think if that kid was telling a Jewish kid that his people murdered Jesus and are going to hell for it.  Or a Muslim kid that his people are all evil because they're all terrorists and so they're all going to hell.  It's a form of verbal bullying and should be treated as such (and if a Christian kid was being mocked and belittled for their belief by a little asshole atheist I'd say the same thing). 

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I'd raise hell about it (well, first I'd have calm conversations, then I'd raise hell), both with the school and with the other kid's parents.  Your kid isn't the only one who will have that shit said to them by that kid, and your belief structure is as valid as anyone elses and should be given the same amount of respect. What would you think if that kid was telling a Jewish kid that his people murdered Jesus and are going to hell for it.  Or a Muslim kid that his people are all evil because they're all terrorists and so they're all going to hell.  It's a form of verbal bullying and should be treated as such (and if a Christian kid was being mocked and belittled for their belief by a little asshole atheist I'd say the same thing). 

 

Totally agree. As much as I despise religion it is absolutely wrong to be shitty and disrespectful to other people on that basis. And that's what's so fucking gross about this stuff. A core part of so many religions involves trying to sucker other people into seeing the light and accepting Jesus or whatever other deity is in charge. And that usually involves saying some pretty shitty things to non-believers to scare them into signing up. I think we can all agree, whether we are atheist or religious, that an atheist is being an asshole when they mock and belittle someone for their beliefs. But when a Christian (or other religious person) does it, they are doing the lord's work in the eyes of religious people.

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You can't stop kids from saying that stuff to eachother. When you're young your life is just a perpetual stream of made up stuff being told to you by other kids. As long as you're not raising her to be religious I wouldn't worry about it more than someone telling her there are monsters at night or something. I'm no parent though.

edit: I guess the difference is that some kid being raised into a religion might have a greater conviction, but still, I'm sure you as her parent exert a greater influence on her.

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You can't stop kids from saying that stuff to eachother. When you're young your life is just a perpetual stream of made up stuff being told to you by other kids. As long as you're not raising her to be religious I wouldn't worry about it more than someone telling her there are monsters at night or something. I'm no parent though.

edit: I guess the difference is that some kid being raised into a religion might have a greater conviction, but still, I'm sure you as her parent exert a greater influence on her.

 

That's different though. While kids do tell each other dumb stuff all the time the religious stuff is incredibly pervasive and she will be bombarded by that messaging all throughout her life. She will hear it from other kids, their parents, teachers, and all kinds of other people in positions of authority. That puts additional, unnecessary pressure on me to consistently put forward a convincing enough argument that she doesn't need to worry about that kind of stuff. Being told that you will burn for all of eternity and be in intense pain if you don't follow along with some stupid book that a huge percentage of the population follows can be very damaging to a developing mind. Much more damaging than kids just being dumb kids and making up stories about monsters.

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As I expected would happen at some point, my daughter came home from school the other day saying that her friend told her she was going to go to hell because she didn't believe in God. She then proceeded to tell her all about how there is a bunch of vampires and fire and scary shit in hell and that she needed to believe in God if she wanted to go to heaven when she died. So naturally, my daughter is saying she believes in God now because she is scared of going to hell.

 

So I have to now try to work on explaining to her how some people let fear run their lives and end up believing in some really silly made up stuff because they think they are going to be tortured for all of eternity if they don't. I know this is a very unpopular opinion but having been raised very religious, I think it is a form of abuse to raise your kids believing this shit. Teaching children to let fear run their lives makes for a pretty agonizing childhood.

 

I'm not gonna get into the situation because I'm not a parent and I can't really speak to how angry I would be (my guess: a whole fucking lot). But I will just say, on a different tact, it's probably not great to assume there are no religious people reading what you're saying on this forum and that you can just freely disrespect the concept of faith in any way you want. You're blowing off steam, I get it, but there's no need to be nasty.

 

And, to jump ahead of it, I'm an atheist. But religion (many different religions!) is a core part of the lives of many people who are very important to me, and it bothers me when people sneer at other people's faiths.

 

Anyway, this is all I'm going to say because the debate over the damaging effects of religion in this country and others is a sticky and complicated one that I don't want to get pulled into. If you believe faith in any religion boils down to silly made up stuff that people embrace due to fear and a history of child abuse, that's fine. I just think it's incredibly unkind and rude to belabor that point in public spaces where you don't know who believes in what.

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And I think that's kind of bullshit. There are so many ridiculous things that people believe in. Why isn't it fair game to state my opinion that it is silly for people to ignore logic and believe a lot of this stuff purely on the basis of faith.

 

Some people still believe the Earth is flat too. Do we have to tiptoe on eggshells around those people so we don't hurt their feelings for ignoring reality?

 

It's just ridiculous to me that we can't talk frankly about how we feel about this kind of stuff.

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I don't have a problem with describing certain kinds of religious upbringings as child abuse, particularly those which include heavy doses of things like going to hell.  I know too many people damaged by those things to think of a more appropriate word for it.  I've also had people get very angry at me for daring to say that, but that's not something that particularly bothers me. 

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I'm just saying, we do this all the time for all kinds of other things people believe in.

 

Whether its someone who's an MRA and believes feminists are ruining the world. Or people who believe in gamergator ideology. Or people that don't believe racism exists any more. Or any number of any other things.

 

If we can have frank discussions about how stupid we think those people are for their illogical beliefs that are harmful to others and aren't rooted in reality then why should religion be off limits?

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Yeah, I'm not getting more into it. I said that your characterization of the broad subject of religion bothered me, and would probably bother anyone else who has faith in one, whether they are an Evangelical Christian protesting an abortion clinic or a Buddhist who volunteers at homeless shelters. It's a sneering dismissal of a majority of the world's population.

 

If you don't care, I'm not going to try to hound you into caring. I just think it shows a lack of empathy and a myopic view of what religions are.

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I'm starting to get in deep into the occult, mysticism, alchemy, Kabbalh and the like. Just used some of my tax refund to get some books those subjects.

 

I also got these:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0500517789
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0500518106
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1937128482
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/3836549360

 

I'm so fucking excited to get them.

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I think you're taking Zeus in the worst possible light here, the context of his post in specifically about dealing with religion that teaches kids that if they, and everyone else, don't live and believe in specific ways, they will burn in fire for eternity.  That's not a condemnation of a Buddhist who volunteers at a homeless shelter, it's a condemnation of people who teach little kids about burning in hell.  Buddhists, as far as I know, don't do that. 

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I'm starting to get in deep into the occult, mysticism, alchemy, Kabbalh and the like. Just used some of my tax refund to get some books those subjects.

 

I also got these:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0500517789

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0500518106

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1937128482

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/3836549360

 

I'm so fucking excited to get them.

 

Ouroboros Press puts out some solid books on Western esotericism (or at least did when I went through that phase a few years ago).

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I've checked out some of their stuff, solid shit.

 

I've always had an interest in those subjects, but now I have some money and time to invest in them.

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That's different though. While kids do tell each other dumb stuff all the time the religious stuff is incredibly pervasive and she will be bombarded by that messaging all throughout her life. She will hear it from other kids, their parents, teachers, and all kinds of other people in positions of authority. That puts additional, unnecessary pressure on me to consistently put forward a convincing enough argument that she doesn't need to worry about that kind of stuff. Being told that you will burn for all of eternity and be in intense pain if you don't follow along with some stupid book that a huge percentage of the population follows can be very damaging to a developing mind. Much more damaging than kids just being dumb kids and making up stories about monsters.

You're probably right. I'm fortunate enough to live in a society where religion isn't present in that way, so I guess I don't think about it like that.

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Pabosher/Speedy, I'm sorry to hear that. At least she had the decency to not leave you hanging any longer than she already had.

 

Woohoo! I don't think I ever asked this, but what subjects do you teach Miffy?

 

I'm a generalist in the 5th grade, which means I teach Language Arts, Social Studies, Math, and Science to 10 year olds, as well as being responsible for an elective course (French). I'm the only member of my team that isn't specialized, due to that being what was needed two years ago when the school was hiring. It means twice as many meetings and less ability to actually get involved with anything as I'd really want to, but it's a foot in the door. A few years down the line, I'd like to specialize Math/Science and maybe look at a higher grade as well (my school is grades 5 - 9, and I think the older kids could be pretty fun to work with).

 

I'm not gonna get into the situation because I'm not a parent and I can't really speak to how angry I would be (my guess: a whole fucking lot). But I will just say, on a different tact, it's probably not great to assume there are no religious people reading what you're saying on this forum and that you can just freely disrespect the concept of faith in any way you want. You're blowing off steam, I get it, but there's no need to be nasty.

 

And, to jump ahead of it, I'm an atheist. But religion (many different religions!) is a core part of the lives of many people who are very important to me, and it bothers me when people sneer at other people's faiths.

 

Anyway, this is all I'm going to say because the debate over the damaging effects of religion in this country and others is a sticky and complicated one that I don't want to get pulled into. If you believe faith in any religion boils down to silly made up stuff that people embrace due to fear and a history of child abuse, that's fine. I just think it's incredibly unkind and rude to belabor that point in public spaces where you don't know who believes in what.

 

I feel like you're reading what Zeus said pretty uncharitably. I don't think that he said anything about raising your child to believe in a higher power being anywhere near child abuse, and would very much agree with him that raising a child to constantly live in fear of being sent to hell for any slight should be considered as such. There are enough real things to be neurotic about without adding old-testament style bullshit to the mix. When you work with kids, it tends to come up a lot. I don't hide my atheism from my students, and encourage them to correct me if I ever misrepresent something that they believe. I like to learn about all of the different traditions, whether they make sense to me or not. I also make it perfectly clear that anyone pushing their beliefs on someone who doesn't share them isn't welcome in my classroom, and I would categorize what happened to Zeus' daughter as such. It makes me very sad, and I would absolutely raise hell (heh) were I in his position.

 

In North America (and completely anecdotally, mind you) belief is so normalized in schools that I personally find it kind of distressing. As non-believing teacher, I've had two reactions from parents. Very devout parents of various religions give me a bit of a side-eye but don't say anything. Atheist parents have come up and thanked me for being an example to their children and showing non-belief as something to neither be ashamed of nor obnoxiously proud of. A parent volunteer once came up and shook my hand after an artist-in-residence helped my grade 3 class paint eggs in traditional style when my response to a student who asked why I don't paint eggs at home was a non-chalant and matter-of-fact "Well, because I'm not a Christian." I'd say that 90% of the teachers I know are, which is incredibly disproportionate to other groups I know.

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I'm going to be taking on a bunch of teaching roles soon. Specifically university students 21+. I'm actually terrified. Every time I've been given that responsibility so far, I've been extremely stand-offish and laissez-faire in my approach, resulting in the student being taken off my hands because I wasn't doing anything anyway. Other people are super good at dealing with students, I just don't understand where they get their drive from, to me it feels like a chore. It's been tolerated because I've had a huge work load, and taking students has always been a favour rather than an obligation, but I get the feeling in a more formal role, my general approach of not actually doing anything won't go down well. 

 

This sounds bad, even in my head, but how do you make yourself care about a student's progress? I never signed up to be a teacher, it's just a responsibility that comes with my field that I don't really want to do, but have to. So I feel like I need to change my mind set so I can actually do ok at the job.

 

I usually go into things with the attitude of "If I'm going to do this, I'm going to put 100% into it and try to be the best." I just don't feel that way about helping students. Especially as anything they do is entirely inconsequential. If I can't make myself care, what do I do? 

 

The thing is, I love helping my coworkers and PhD students. It's more like giving advice, rather than teaching. Closer to two peers aiding each other, rather than a teacher-student relationship which I find really weird anyway. I can never seem to have friendly relationships with any student I've had. I just say: "do X,Y & Z, ask me if you're stuck and I'll figure out what you did wrong."

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Pabosher/Speedy, I'm sorry to hear that. At least she had the decency to not leave you hanging any longer than she already had.

 

Thanks pal. Hurts like a mofo though!

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