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I'm in the camp where the idea is that it's not even something we can prove or disprove if it's something that's supposed to exist outside the scope of our perception, so "agnostic". Maybe I'm wrong to think that not having proof a thing existing doesn't disprove it?

 

I guess I like to think that this thinking leaves my mind open, but I end up leading a pretty "atheist" life regardless.

 

EDIT: my Christian friend says that the religion he believes in doesn't hinge on the existence of God but the behavior that results from believing in it. He says that intellectually he's agnostic, and is of the mind that God's existence isn't something anyone can ever prove or disprove, so it's pointless to try empirically, so you might as well trick yourself into believing in something because there's a net benefit.

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In that case is there a commonly found word for both a non belief in gods and spirituality?

'Rationalist' feels just a bit too snobby for me to use consistently. I mean it feels rational to not believe in either of those things but I'm hardly a consistently rational person.

Edit: oh are you calling non-religious the alternative word? I don't exactly know the entemology there but to me 'non-religious' leaves the door open to spirituality. I guess I'll have to look into it.

 

irreligious or non-religious would be the word.

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I'm on that list with Bjorn and Nach as well. I like the idea of karma and all that, but can't believe in it. That said, people like to challenge me on the basis that I do meditate. The relaxation and tranquility is rewarding in and of itself and I don't associate anything spiritual with it though.

 

I meditate sometimes too, but even when studying Buddhism I thought it just had very real and mundane psychological benefits in terms of conscious processing of unconscious things (mindfulness of breathing) and trying to cultivate empathy (metta bhavana). Within a few months I started to occasionally have really vivid visions too, but nothing made me think they were more than psychological quirks/glitches/experiences; altered states don't have to hinge on some kind of outside power.

 

I can see how people might bring meditation up as "Aha you are spiritual" but that's how I'd answer them.

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I've experienced "spiritual" moments, which I find pleasant and/or interesting, but I entirely attribute them to the weird biology of our brain, and nothing more.

Edited to add: As an example, sitting in front of the ocean and feeling the energy of the waves washing over me is probably the closest I come to understanding spirituality.

 

I remember having a profound spiritual moment when I saw that Gamecubes were half off. God may work in mysterious ways but that seems a little too mysterious to me.

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'Skeptic' and 'secular' seem to be words that are the most encompassing of non-religious, non-"spiritual", atheistic worldviews, and the words with the least amount of baggage (although skeptic can also be used to refer to 'climate change skeptic' and other beliefs where such skepticism in the face of rigorous evidence is arguably unreasonable).

 

Just to be pedantic, 'agnostic' refers to the position that knowledge about "god" (or any other phenomena or concept) is unattainable, or at least currently not known. 'Agnostic theism', and 'agnostic atheism' are both valid positions since agnosticism only refers to knowledge, and not necessarily to belief. Popular usage of the word is much more fluid obviously, so whatever.

 

I'd argue that if something exists, then by definition it can be "known" to some degree however small and incomplete or inaccurately. If something is entirely and immutably outside the "scope of perception", then such a thing is meaningless and by definition does not "exist" (since following that line of thought allows for an infinite number of equally meaningless concepts to 'exist'). Genuine agnosticism would be a temporary phase one would have before evidence has been found to prove/disprove a belief, or in the case of something that is fundamentally 'unprovable' - a position that is indistinguishable from disbelief, though that's just me being a tediously literal prescriptivist, so continue using 'agnostic' and 'spiritual' however you like.

 

See also: theological noncognitivism, and Newton's Flaming Laser Sword by Mike Alder.

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irreligious or non-religious would be the word.

See I think those are both a step backward because religion and spirituality are two exclusive concepts and from what you're suggesting I would be using a word that wholly excludes religion explicitly while trying to read between lines or explain to people that it means that I reject spirituality as well.

 

At this point I wonder if Rationalist is really such a bad choice. It may be a loaded concept in that if one were to declare one as such they may be expected to strive more-often for rational behaviour. But not everyone that declares themselves religious or spiritualist become the most strident of followers.

 

However I guess I could warm to the usage of secular although in most contexts that I'm familiar with it it's used merely to separate the influence of a religious institution than to state that an individual does not believe in them.

I'd throw out the usage of skeptic for the reasons Bolegium described.

 

On the concept of spiritual experiences I'd agree with Nachimir in that our brains are wired to appreciate events that have been labelled spiritual by default previously.

Growing up I was brought up with my mother's families belief system which was fostered with the help of a new age philosophical institution which runs several primary schools around the world as well as taking adult classes. 

They taught scripture (from most dominant religions), classical philosophy, and new age philosophers such as Eckhart Tolle. What they were trying to say was that the hindu concept of the Atman was prevalent throughout all things, all religions, and was also every one of us.

Anyway because of this I was brought up in a context where at least once a week I spent my evening reflecting on spiritual matters or asking myself what is truth, beauty (etc.) and meditating. 

Looking back I think those experiences and reflections are valuable but a spiritual context is not necessary for obtaining meaningful value from them. 

Its been a while since I studied this but from what I remember parts of the human brain were only recently connected (for our evolutionary timescale). What the suspected implication of this was that messages from one side of the brain might be interpreted as messages from another being namely a God who spoke to everyone.

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parts of the human brain were only recently connected (for our evolutionary timescale). What the suspected implication of this was that messages from one side of the brain might be interpreted as messages from another being namely a God who spoke to everyone.

Oh shit, that sounds a lot like the Bicameral theory of mind/consciousness proposed by Julian Jaynes (and first brought to my attention by Neal Stephenson in 'Snow Crash'). Ultimately I don't expect the Bicameral theory to be particularly accurate, but i've been obsessed with the idea for many years, especially the notion that language is a necessary 'technological' development for 'consciousness' to emerge from, rather than the other way around.

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Oh shit, that sounds a lot like the Bicameral theory of mind/consciousness proposed by Julian Jaynes (and first brought to my attention by Neal Stephenson in 'Snow Crash'). Ultimately I don't expect the Bicameral theory to be particularly accurate, but i've been obsessed with the idea for many years, especially the notion that language is a necessary 'technological' development for 'consciousness' to emerge from, rather than the other way around.

 

I agree that it's a super interesting concept but I'd just like to say that it's been some time since I looked at it and I'd have to look through my old lab book (just finished browsing through my old lecture slides) to be certain.

As it stands the hemispheres of our brain being unconnected until recently was heavily passed around as fact in class but I've lost the ability to verify it.

 

In other news I read a random news story today and learned that one of the most amazing people I've ever known died today in a speeding and possibly alcohol related car accident. 

She will be remembered by the state as the first road death of the year but her friends will always remember her as the impossibly bubbly girl who was always the most fun person to be around.

 

This feels dorky to note but it's only the second death I've ever felt outside my family ties; part of me is starting to cry but I'm reminding myself that such an awesome person's death shouldn't be marked by sadness but with a celebration of her amazing life.

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Let me throw another wrench into this discussion: What if you don't believe in "heavy" spirituality such as karma, but more diffuse stuff such as fate, or even luck? Or what about the even smaller things, superstitions like knocking on wood or not stepping under ladders?

 

A norwegian sceptic writes a really good blog, taking to task everything from healers to vaccine and climate deniers, including the medias treatment of them. But he also wrote a post saying that even though he knows deep down it doesn't help, he does the little things we all do, like turning his laptop 5 degrees to the left because the wifi gets slightly better, or pushes the elevator button multiple times to make the doors close faster.

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Let me throw another wrench into this discussion: What if you don't believe in "heavy" spirituality such as karma, but more diffuse stuff such as fate, or even luck? Or what about the even smaller things, superstitions like knocking on wood or not stepping under ladders?

 

A norwegian sceptic writes a really good blog, taking to task everything from healers to vaccine and climate deniers, including the medias treatment of them. But he also wrote a post saying that even though he knows deep down it doesn't help, he does the little things we all do, like turning his laptop 5 degrees to the left because the wifi gets slightly better, or pushes the elevator button multiple times to make the doors close faster.

 

Not that I feel I have much interesting to contribute to this discussion, but I really think it's impossible to keep the human brain from seeing patterns everywhere and shaping its behavior accordingly. Even if one could somehow break the habit of making arbitrary and fallacious connections between things, I'm not sure it'd result in better mental health or a happier life, not unless perfect secular rationality is what really gets one's motor going.

 

 

I was also going to write something about the old "harmful/disruptive/dysfunctional" definition of mental disorders applying to my perception and treatment of other people's religious and spiritual beliefs, but I'm not terribly in love with what I wrote and not really sure I believe it all that much, anyway.

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Another aside, pushing the door close button often doesn't do anything at all. They're included just so people feel like they've done something but have no mechanical effect.

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This is a relatively long post about something rather boring, but it's also a PSA for UKers (and a good general reminder for everyone to keep their receipts and paperwork forever, even if it means scanning to save on space).

 

As I tweeted recently, if you're paying your council tax directly at the post office or whatever, rather than direct debit, make sure you keep the receipts forever.

 

Three and a half years ago, I rented a flat for 6 months. I paid my council tax at the post office because I knew I wouldn't be there long and I didn't want to set up a direct debit and end up overpaying or getting screwed by the council somehow.

 

This Christmas, I got a letter from a collections agency telling me that I owed the council £255 and that if I didn't pay within 14 days of the letter (never mind it being Christmas, a time when a lot of people are away and the council itself is closed for most of those 14 days) then PROCEEDINGS COURT BAILIFFS ETC. No correspondence from the council, just straight up threat letter from some independent company.

 

I called the council today, and it turns out surprise surprise they have no record of me paying them £430. What they did have a record of was me being there two months longer than I actually was. Thankfully, partly because a friend of mine had the exact same thing happen to them and with no proof had to pay out hundreds of pounds they didn't owe, I had kept the receipts for three and a half years. So I told them that, and they said that I should email them the proof, and that £125 of that debt was a no-payment charge. A no-payment charge from a council who didn't contact me for three and a half years to ask for payment. Apparently I  should have paid less than £130 in total and it seems I am actually owed about £300. We'll see how quick they are to pay that back to me - perhaps I should send the bailiffs round to them. (Although I'm not confident that this is correct either - I suspect I paid around the correct amount and the person I spoke to was reading something wrong, which at least is a nice change from maliciously trying to con me out of hundreds of pounds.)

 

In summary - it seems to me that UK city councils will purposefully lose records and then wait for long enough that you're likely to have not kept yours, and then not only ask you to pay your tax a second time but also charge you £125 for absolutely nothing, indirectly through a thug company.

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I was forcibly raised as a devout Seventh Day Adventist and managed to come to my senses around the age of 17 or so (I'm 30 now). Having been immersed in that shit throughout my entire childhood I kind of tend to agree with some of the more militant atheists on the damage that religion does to society. The main problem I have with a lot of religions is the way they promote faith as the ultimate truth to everything. When you grow up being told that things will work out if you "just have faith" or that "faith is all you need", you end up with a fundamentally broken thought process and it is frustrating to see all these other poor kids being conditioned to not question things and accept them just because.

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Since it's being brought up again, I just want to say that my respect and amazement for people who have escaped childhood indoctrination knows no bounds. The fortitude and honesty required to do that is far more impressive and admirable than the lazy kind of disbelief I have.

 

Things like 'The Clergy Project' are far more inspiring than whatever arguments Dawkins comes up with (even if he didn't have terrible views about a bunch of topics).

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Hey, just to make this thread more depressing, I got an email from my mom:

 

Hi Tegan-
I want to wish you the best in this New Year and I hope we can move forward with some forgiveness and reconnection.  I know you are strong and can stand on your own two feet and I am proud of you.  I also know how harmful it is to oneself to hold on to a grudge.  I have done that in the past myself and found it hurts me as much as those I wish to keep out of my life.    I only want you to be happy.  We miss you and would like some contact with you.  Please think it over.
Love
Mom

 

Maybe I'm just pessimistic, but characterizing my leaving an abusive home and refusing to return as a "grudge" doesn't give me much hope for her having learned anything. I still have nightmares about these people.

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Well, it's not a grudge if you don't wish them any malice, you just want them to stay just over there and keep the aisles clear.

 

I've had a couple of years where I didn't speak to my parents, because I was having problems and I perceived them as making them worse, and I know it hurt Mum a lot because she read it as yet another person she loved abandoning her. I didn't have anything close to the history that you've had with your family, but I'd imagine that for any parent, that attachment to their child that forms over the first few years of life is hard to break. I imagine it's genuine loss she's feeling, but she is incapable of understanding what she did to you, and it's going to be difficult-to-impossible to bury the hatchet.

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It reads like there's not malign intent in that email, but you've talked about manipulative things she's done before and it seems like, even if she means well, a lot of her outlook and the conclusions she's already come to on you and your relationship are passively hostile to you if that even makes sense. If you're still having nightmares you probably still need space, and might always. No matter how well meaning she might be, you don't owe her contact, friendship, love, or anything like.

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I have to agree with the other guys. From what you've posted in this thread before, it's sounding like they want the same as before: Forgiveness for their own guilt, but without showing actual remorse. Of course, I don't know your parents or how they think, but based on what you said the last time you ended up meeting with her, I don't think you're being overly paranoid.

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I had a similar email from my Dad recently. My advice is don't go back; there's likely nothing to salvage except a fresh feeling of frustration and hurt.

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I went to the doctor today and got the news that my collarbone is healed enough that I can stop wearing a sling, I'm pretty happy about this :D

 

Also, my girlfriend and I adopted a doggy, a 4 year old girl we named Darcy.

CXwImXK.jpg

 

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Hey, just to make this thread more depressing, I got an email from my mom:

 

 

Maybe I'm just pessimistic, but characterizing my leaving an abusive home and refusing to return as a "grudge" doesn't give me much hope for her having learned anything. I still have nightmares about these people.

If parents can't see that they hurt you or believe that they did, they are not worth your time. Trust me as someone who lives 1000s of miles away from her mom and stepdad.

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To be honest, I feel like garbage. Things have just been so bad lately and I don't think they're going to get any better.

 

I've got no family, no job, I'm almost out of money, and I don't know what I'm doing with my life.

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Well, you did draw some pretty cool pokemon, so that's something.

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