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Man, Sal, you bring it HARD. With your blessing, I may PM you later with something on a related topic that's been bugging me but is a bit sensitive to put in a public thread.

Absolutely!

you do have a relationship with her, too. A weird one, true, but a relationship, non-the-less. And I'd hope there's some trust there... right?

Yes, but then this begs the following questions: why does it seem like "hey I love you for reals" is a Big Reveal that is dramatic and unacceptable? Is it because Gwardinen wants to be the primary? Because he wants a monogamous relationship with her? The way he's going about it gives me the feeling that he expects this to rock the boat. So, it would be wiser and more graceful to wait until the immediate primary problems are resolved or done away with, and in the meantime continue in the same role he is already (friend, but with benefits obvs).

My only concern is that you might be turning yourself into a martyr by trying to be a good "friend"... when really you have ulterior motives. If you can genuinely be her friend, then cool, but I worry that you'll slowly convince yourself that any deeper friendship that might develop is signs of her falling for you. That doesn't seem to me to be a good place to be.

This is an excellent point in general, but maybe not quite applicable in this situation, since his friend status is kind of more in the relationship area than entirely platonic. So the ulterior motives have kind of already been accomplished. I would like to clarify here that when I said to step back and be there for her, I don't mean to lose the intimacy you already have with her. Basically just keep doing what you're doing but don't get in the middle of the fight. Sorry if I was unclear because this is important!

We still need to know what Gwardinen wants the outcome to be, exactly.

I can't agree that he's not involved in this relationship. He's her regular second and friends with both of them. I'd say that's very involved! Granted, it's not a poly relationship that he's actually a member of, just an open one that he's connected to.

That's the tricky bit. He's in a relationship with Girl A. The relationship he is a part of is Girl A - Guy B. Relationship A-A does not involve him, so problems between A and A are not his to meddle with, just as Girl B should not meddle with A-A. The fact that Girl B sort of got in the middle between A-A by virtue of Guy A keeping a secret and messing with finances is what caused trouble in the first place.

What Gwardinen should be concerned with is only the feelings of himself and Girl A towards Gwardinen on an intimate level, and Guy A on a purely platonic friend level (to whatever capacity Gwardinen is comfortable with).

edit: \/\/\/ aahhh your cousin is adorable!

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Hmm, here are some recent stories that happened with my five year old cousin. I thought they might lighten the mood of some of you. Tomorrow I'll write-up a decent post on a funny and slightly sad love story that I went through recently.

Anyway, my five year old cousin spends a good percentage of her time hanging around me (their family live upstairs) We watch My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic together sometimes. Here are some choice quotes from our viewings. She drops so many good ones it's hard to remember them all, but here are some semi-recent ones.

--

"Woah," she says, "Rainbow Dash can fly? If I was a pony, I'd be her. Woah! Twilight can do magic! I'd be her! I'd also be her!" She points at one pony. "I'd be this pony! And that pony! And that pony!"

She suddenly stops, gets off my lap, and announces to no-one in particular: "If I was a pony, I would be all the ponies."

"You would be all the ponies?" I say.

She comes over to me, stands on my knees, looks me intently in the face, and nods before staring off into space again. "I would be all the ponies."

---

"When I grow-up, I'm gonna be a princess," she says.

This annoyed me. I've never liked how cartoons and media in general seem to tell boys they could be awesome engineers or scientists or Action Man soldiers or whatever, but girls always get stuck with the princess angle. So I started telling her how cool it would be to be a scientist, like Twilight Sparkle, or an artist, or something. This was a five minute talk that ended with her concluding: "Fine. When I grow-up, I'm gonna be a princess-scientist." I gave-up, figuring that was, at least, a start.

--

"Are you saying that Princess Celestia can fly and do magic? Woah, woah," she says, suddenly looking like her mind has been blown. "Woah."

---

Another moment that blew her mind: "Are you saying even the SUN talks? Woahhhhh."

---

"What's your favourite cartoon?" I say.

"My favourite cartoon is Jim Jam," she says.

"Jim Jam is a channel. What's your favourite show?" I say.

"I like all the cartoons on Jim Jam that have shooting in them," she says, looking annoyed, "and all the ones that don't have shooting in them."

--

Hopefully these are actually funny and not just to me.

Edited by Kroms

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"When I grow-up, I'm gonna be a princess," she says.

This annoyed me. I've never liked how cartoons and media in general seem to tell boys they could be awesome engineers or scientists or Action Man soldiers or whatever, but girls always get stuck with the princess angle. So I started telling her how cool it would be to be a scientist, like Twilight Sparkle, or an artist, or something. This was a five minute talk that ended with her concluding: "Fine. When I grow-up, I'm gonna be a princess-scientist." I gave-up, figuring that was, at least, a start.

So she's gonna be Princess Bubblegum, I can dig that. The all the ponies bit is definitely the best.

Marvelous.png

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I don't want to monopolise this thread for too much longer, but I do appreciate the advice I've heard so far. I'm going to add a little bit more information in case anyone still has any thoughts - you can PM me with them if you don't think they'd benefit from peer review here.

In the intervening time between posting and reading the more recent posts here (around three hours ago - ie. before I saw Sal screaming ABORT), I sent her a text asking if she'd spoken to him yet, whether she was all right and, though I didn't want to put pressure on her or her time, if she could let me know whether there's a time in the next few days when we would be able to speak face to face. She hasn't yet responded. I'm trying not to worry about what that might mean, if anything.

My "plan" for what I'm going to say if and when I see her is changing every time I think about it, but the current one is mostly to just ask questions. Ask how she feels at the moment, what she thinks about us, what she wants from us and her other relationship at the moment, and long term. I don't know if I'll really get any answers, but I feel like the first step to any meaningful decisions has to be understanding her mindset and desires. After that... I suppose I'll have to trust my instincts to try to figure out whether to talk more about my feelings for her.

For reference, I have actually already told her I love her, a number of times. She's even said it back, a number of times. The situation isn't even as simple as some sort of grand revelation... the only things I'm sure of are that I don't want to be without her, but the current situation makes me unhappy. Maybe there's a middle ground that could work for everyone but I honestly don't know what that would be. I'm trying to be reasonable, but I don't know how long I should realistically just accept unhappiness before at least trying to find another solution.

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I sent her a text asking if she'd spoken to him yet, whether she was all right and, though I didn't want to put pressure on her or her time, if she could let me know whether there's a time in the next few days when we would be able to speak face to face

My thought here: "She's not going to reply for a while, and when she does, it's going to be colder than usual."

She hasn't yet responded. I'm trying not to worry about what that might mean, if anything.

And my thought here was "Ah".

I know how you feel, but I wonder if you asking her questions will do more harm than good. There's a good chance she's starting to abort too, which is why

the only things I'm sure of are that I don't want to be without her,

is something you need to come to terms with, since you know that

but the current situation makes me unhappy.

is a fact.

Her having told you that she loves you is super weird, since she was in a relationship at the time. Maybe you misinterpreted that?

All that having been said, good luck dude. You do the right thing.

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My thought here: "She's not going to reply for a while, and when she does, it's going to be colder than usual."

Urgh. I hated the text as I was writing it but it was weird trying to figure out what to say. I don't know. I feel like trying to contact her again in any way today would be a mistake, so I'm just going to have to live with that for now. Miscommunication is horrible, which is why I want to speak to her face to face anyway. Being misunderstood in this situation is one of my top fears.

Her having told you that she loves you is super weird, since she was in a relationship at the time. Maybe you misinterpreted that?

It's happened on multiple occasions, in response to me saying I love her, while within intimate distance... so I'm pretty sure I haven't misinterpreted, but it might not have been particularly meaningful. She may be someone who says it easily, and she's probably someone who doesn't consider loving two people in what way simultaneously a problem.

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That last paragraph may be it.

I dunno. I've never been in an open relationship, so this goes a little beyond my scope. Good luck.

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Gwardinen, what is it about the current situation specifically that makes you unhappy? Is it the fact that you're not her primary, or is it that she has another guy at all? Or that you don't think she feels about you the same way you feel about her?

And then after you identify what makes you sad: what exactly would you change about the whole arrangement in order to be happy? Do you think she'd be happy as well?

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She may be someone who says it easily, and she's probably someone who doesn't consider loving two people in that way simultaneously a problem.

That exists and we are complete and utter jerks.

(I'm not good with relationship advice.)

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I don't think I'll ever really understand open relationships. The very idea makes me feel quite uneasy. How tediously possessive of me.

Kroms, all of those cousin anecdotes are excellent. Occasionally my similarly-aged nephew will come out with some verbal gold, but those are right up there among the best of his.

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If I was giving advice, I would be giving all the advice.

But seriously, i'm woefully under qualified for this. :getmecoat

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Well, you can't control what your heart feels, right?

The heart is just a chunk of muscle. It's the brain and the hormones that are to blame.

To blame for me being a complete ass.

(That reminds me, I need to re-read A Certain Chemistry.)

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Spoke to the girl. Didn't go well. She didn't say it in these words but my basic take away is that she fears upsetting her current relationship in any way more than she wants to be with me. It's a harsh way to put it but it seems like that's what it boils down to.

I don't know what to do now. I'll have to figure out if there's a lesser situation that I can handle, or whether I'll have to try to figure out a way to be just friends, or if this means I need to not see her at all. I hate all of the above at this moment in time, so I wish I could stop thinking about them. At least for a while.

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I'm not sure if you can be "just friends" if you feel about her this way now. You'd need a break from her for a while, but when you start hanging out again, there is a very large chance you'll just fall for her all over again. It'd require you to really move on before you can be just friends, in my experience.

And if you want to stop thinking for a while, just buy some pot and go watch a fun movie with friends. You'll sleep like a baby! :grin: Which reminds me: Hanging out with friends is often a huge help to get your mind of things too, be it playing some online games or just hanging out in person. Take a break, let things settle down for a while and then make your choice. I tend to really regret my life choices when I make them in a sad mood.

Bitter situation, man.

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(HUGGGGGGS)

Also: you probably need some time away from her, or time to not think about her. If you have any chums who are not wrapped up in this, ask them to keep you entertained for a while - tell them you need to keep yourself occupied and you're up for anything.

(NB: I AM DRUNK RIGHT NOW SO I MAY NOT BE GOOD AT ADVICE.)

P.S. DEAR THUMBS, MY FAT CAT IS THROWING UP AND SEEMS DEPRESSED. COULD HE HAVE AN EATING DISORDER?

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All good advice. Gwardinen, try your best to move on. This is going nowhere for the foreseeable future and it might even be better (probably) to give up on her in total. Squish any lingering hope of it ever working out between you. I know this because I did the opposite, I held out hope, and it got me nowhere for years.

Talk it over with friends, deal with your emotions and then get on with your new life.

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P.S. DEAR THUMBS, MY FAT CAT IS THROWING UP AND SEEMS DEPRESSED. COULD HE HAVE AN EATING DISORDER?

Hmmmm.

BugsBunny-DrKillPatient-ElmerFudd.jpg

Sheems like tetanus to mhee. Yeeeesh.

/faux-german

(Consider this my, I'm not going to give actual advice in these matters because I got lucky with the one woman I wanted, post. And look how that went. Everything before that was butchery and lies. Emotional butchery, I mean.)

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P.S. DEAR THUMBS, MY FAT CAT IS THROWING UP AND SEEMS DEPRESSED. COULD HE HAVE AN EATING DISORDER?

Have you tried confusing him?

B2Je1CEPkUM

Gwardinen; I'm with the others: take you mind off it, have a good time with friends, put some distance between you, and then when you next cross paths things will be much easier.

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Spoke to the girl. Didn't go well. She didn't say it in these words but my basic take away is that she fears upsetting her current relationship in any way more than she wants to be with me. It's a harsh way to put it but it seems like that's what it boils down to.

I don't know what to do now. I'll have to figure out if there's a lesser situation that I can handle, or whether I'll have to try to figure out a way to be just friends, or if this means I need to not see her at all. I hate all of the above at this moment in time, so I wish I could stop thinking about them. At least for a while.

Dude!

This girl is ass, and so is the situation. There's one very important thing to remember, and that is that no matter how much you think you're in love with her, you'll love someone else one day far times more, because they'll be a right match for you and in the right situation.

You need to stop seeing her and move on, it will suck and feel unreal and horrible at first but it will open up a door to a much happier future.

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Thanks for the advice, guys. I'm still not totally sure what I'm going to do, but I'm going to at least try to bear in mind the opinions of people who are totally divorced from the situation. I know that distance often makes things clearer, and I've been frustrated by friends' inability to see what's clear to me while inside a situation before now.

I was wondering whether trying distraction tactics on myself was a good idea. One part of me says I need to bull through this, figure it out NOW and then put something into action, but I do wonder if you're all right. Maybe right now I need to back off this, even in my own head, and just let the back of my brain do a little processing.

Perhaps PiratePoo is right, decisions made while in the grip of sadness may well not be the most trustworthy.

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