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I hope you feel better, ThunderPeel.

EDIT: I said some other stuff, but it probably wasn't appropriate.

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Then I think of my friend and her sleeping together and I feel physically sick. :P

It's weird how physical a reaction betrayal can evoke. When I think about it, my reaction doesn't make a great deal of sense to me, but I find myself even feeling vicariously terrible about other people's experiences, even fictional ones. Stupid brain.

Anyway, I hope you're feeling better. I have no advice beyond that already offered.

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That horrible slither in the bottom of your stomach and lower half of your spine? I hate that feeling.

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That horrible slither in the bottom of your stomach and lower half of your spine? I hate that feeling.

Yeah man, tapeworms really take it out of you

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I went to the inaugural meeting of the North FL Fountain Pen Club (unless we decide to call it a militia, which I thought would be funnier) this weekend. It was just like you'd imagine it: lots of pens, at least one George R. R. Martin body double, and at least one "mint, never removed from box" item.

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I found a new place to live! It's in the same city, but on the other side. I currently have more of a... Room. I'm upgrading to a 2 bedroom apartment. It's gonna be grand! I'll finally have room for that freezer and I'll be able to store ice cream!

It's the little things I'm looking forward to.

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Congrats! I know by experience how fucked up it is in the Netherlands to get proper housing, so good on you.

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Looking for a way to get a cheap XBox because I don't want to be 300 out bucks for the ability to play four games. Arghhhhhh.

On the other side of the equation of life, my February European excursion may not happen, as I wrenched my back when tripping on the stairs the other day. Disappointing, but it's nice to finally get the inevitable "aw fuck" out of the way, since it was bound to happen eventually. I'm glad it's this rather than say, being stuck in France with no accommodations for four days like I was last time I visited New York.

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Took my Probationary license test today, passed with one 'critical error'; I didn't do a headcheck when I changed lanes once. Took advantage of being able to drive myself by driving to a friend's house, it felt awesome.

Also I got into the Microsoft Flight Beta today, and that's about all I can say. The NDA is uber-mega-super strict.

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Also I got into the Microsoft Flight Beta today, and that's about all I can say. The NDA is uber-mega-super strict.

Did you hear that, guys? VTOL jetbike confirmed.

So... I've avoided doing this here so far, but let's talk about an honest to god squishy emotional problem of mine. From what I've seen, you guys tend to give semi-sensible advice, and I can't really talk to anyone else about the situation because it mostly involves people they know.

I have two friends, a guy and a girl. They're in a relationship. It's an open relationship. As a consequence of that, the guy has another girl... thing. Good word to use? Meanwhile, the girl has another guy... thing. The guything is me.

Yeah. I know. It was always going to be a bad idea. Here's the problem, though; I've been semi-in-love with her for at least seven years, on and off. I couldn't resist.

This situation has been going on for a number of months now, with varying degrees of comfort on my end. I definitely haven't been happy with it for a while, but as I'm friends with both of them it's hard to begrudge them their relationship, and it's not like I didn't know what the deal was. Beyond that, my last major relationship left me a bit adrift and other things in my life haven't been going great so I've somewhat unsure about whether I could actually successfully pursue a proper full-time relationship even if it was available.

However, recently it's come to a bit of a boiling point for me. Last time I saw the girl, it was tense and awkward and I was surly and when she left I was just acting like kind of an idiot. I called her the next day and tried to repair some damage, but the moral of the story is that shit is definitely complicated between us and my feelings have been coming to a head - I was on the verge of calling off seeing her today to try to figure out my own shit.

Meanwhile, the girl discovers that the guy has been lying to her about the other girlthing. The one rule of the open relationship was honesty, but he had arranged a somewhat expensive trip for him and the girlthing without telling the girl, and had apparently spent over £1000 on her recently, despite constantly complaining to the girl of money troubles and borrowing from her. As you can imagine, drama begins. According to her, they nearly break up then and there.

So she sends me a text saying she shouldn't come today because shit is going down and she needs to focus on her relationship, etc. I hardcore panic upon reading it, and realise within the 13 seconds between getting the text and her picking up the phone as I called her that I'm fairly solidly in love with her and definitely want to be with her. What that actually means in terms of the situation, I have no idea. On the phone things seem a little less like I'm being dropped like a bad habit, but basically she's still taking today with the guy to try to work things out.

So, here I sit, while the girl I love tries to fix her relationship with a guy who is theoretically my friend. I honestly don't know what to do going forward, but I'm trying to give her the space to figure things out for now. I hate not doing anything, because there's a roiling cloud of worry and not a small amount of anger in my chest and gut, but it seems like anything I did right now would be likely to make things worse.

Sorry for the wall of text, I still feel like I've had to be pretty sparse with information. Any thoughts appreciated - even if they're "get the fuck out of that shit NOW, noob!"

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I can't offer advice, but I can offer sympathy. That's a goddamn tough situation there, buddy.

I mean, you could try talking to her about it? Being completely honest and all that? That's what I like to think I'd do in that situation. Well, it's what I did in my situation, anyway. Life's easier when there's no confusion, in my opinion.

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So... "get the fuck out of that shit NOW, noob!"

You're doing well. :tup: This is really between them, kinda, you have nothing to do with it, kinda. Go with the flow and try not to fuck yourself over.

Is the dude, yer friend, very much in the wrong here? Is he sorry, or is he being a whiny bitch who refuses to admit that he did anything wrong? Does he really care about either lady? Maybe it might be a good idea to pick a side? Speak truth to power? I dunno. What do others think? Sal?

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Dear Princess Celestia,

Considering my own recent toils I'm probably the least qualified person to speak here, but the one thing I learned is that with relationships, complications are never a good thing. It might be better to wait until either this blows over and things become clear and unclouded, or migrate away from this and find love somewhere where it feels right in every way. Build a relationship on solid foundations, not on lingering side-feelings and complicated dual relationships.

Yours,

Twilight Sparkle

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Edit: everyone else's advice is better than mine. The essence is, chances are it'll turn to shit, so put up your emotional defenses and get some distance from it. I'd learn to row if I lived in Europe. Always wanted to row. No rivers here to row in.

Original post (sort of):

You need to start thinking that this won't work out at all for you - chances are, it really won't. Save yourself the heartbreak and try to start moving on emotionally. Get a hobby; hell, learn Russian or something. But begin putting up your shields and prepare for the worst. This might be the end of an era for you. It might hurt, but know it gets better and, with time, bittersweet.

I wish I had more practical advice apart from "Try very hard to not feel bad", but that's the best I can do. Good luck.

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That's a nasty one, and it's even nastier because of the "all above board" nature of it. I'e been a thing on the side too before and it sucks.

Logically and ethically open relations and polyamory and all that should work. 95% of the time it ends of hurting somebody, often several people.

What is the best case scenario? If it is that their relationship - and yours - continues as it has, you are slowly going to hurt more and more.

Or maybe the best case scenario is that they separate amicable and she ends up with you. Honestly this sounds unlikely. The one thing that might make it more likely is you telling the truth about your feelings for her. Don't make it an ultimatum "me or him" - that will be bad. Instead just say "this is how I feel, and for that reason I cannot keep doing this. Sorry". Either she will be really grateful for the honesty and matter-of-factness and keep things clean, helping you to move on; or she may decide that you are the person she would rather be with (the guy might be grateful for this too, given time, as it actually helps him move on to his new relationship without feeling like anyone is left hurt and alone) . That second outcome is the long shot, but either way the situation becomes resolved without you going slowly crazy. For now. She may still do that to you at a future date.

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You're doing well. :tup: This is really between them, kinda, you have nothing to do with it, kinda. Go with the flow and try not to fuck yourself over.

:tup:, especially that last part.

I think you're best off giving them some space at first, which is hard when your romantic feelings are probably urging you to do something do something now solve this. Trying to influence things, early on at least, is probably inviting trouble. Maybe just let her know you're there, you give a shit and you're not being neglectful. Definitely don't lay down any potentially pressure laden terms like "I love you"; I don't know what kind of person she is, but raising the stakes or making her feel more responsible for the way you feel will likely not help.

Logically and ethically open relations and polyamory and all that should work. 95% of the time it ends of hurting somebody, often several people.

Also true, I think. The motives that work within us around this stuff sometimes conflict, making it more complex (i.e. jealousy and desire can create insane double standards when it comes to non-monogamous behaviour, and attraction doesn't really respect attachment or loyalty). Social species with a 50/50ish gender ratio seem to stabilise around pairs and/or serial monogamy. Culturally and individually, I don't think a lot of people are equipped to deal well with anything else. There are lots of ways we could exist sexually, but culturally monogamy has a lot of inertia, and is often sufficient.

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Thanks for the thoughts so far. I'm still interested if others want to chime in. Perhaps crowdsourcing my relationships will work out for me.

I know you've been going through some stuff where you've had to go hands off the hard way recently, Speedy, so thanks, I may be right there with you soon.

Kroms's desire to learn to row put a smile on my face, as well.

I think you're best off giving them some space at first, which is hard when your romantic feelings are probably urging you to do something do something now solve this.

This. All the fucking time. Trying not to talk to her today has been awful. I really need to have a full sit down talk with her soon, ask her exactly how she feels and thinks, short term and long, about him and me and everything. I also get the feeling, from what you guys have said and one of my few friends I could turn to who doesn't know the couple agrees, that I need to put across my feelings for her in really, really plain terms. As Dan said, I hate the idea of an ultimatum, but at the very least I need to tell her how I feel and how much this situation is bothering me.

God, I hate leaving them alone right now. One way or another this situation is going sideways, and I hate not even trying to do anything about it. I'm not even sure when it would be a good move to contact her to ask about times we could talk soon.

tl;dr Relationship drama leads to a lot of unproductive overthinking.

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tl;dr Relationship drama leads to a lot of unproductive overthinking.

Hah! Oh goodness, isn't that the truth. Trust me, if you do pick up a sport, do a social one. Swimming at 7 this morning was painful. Keeping your face underwater gives you a lot of time for thinking :P

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I need to put across my feelings for her in really, really plain terms. As Dan said, I hate the idea of an ultimatum, but at the very least I need to tell her how I feel and how much this situation is bothering me.

Yeah, though I mentioned not making her feel emotionally pressured, I totally understand. Sometimes you really need to voice that stuff. Probably the best advice I can give on it is that, while voicing your feelings, make sure to take hers into account too, and show it.

I'm not even sure when it would be a good move to contact her to ask about times we could talk soon.

Start small by finding out how she is after a day or two.

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My advice runs similar to everyone else's, especially Nach's most recent post. I think it would be a good idea to tell her you've developed feelings for her (really, it would have been a good idea to disclose this before any of the primary guy's dishonesty, to avoid complications and stick to the one rule of any working open relationship, which you've already cited). Let her know whatever happens you'll be there to give her support if she needs it. Also, I would advise you to do this asap. No waiting for days to call to arrange to speak to her at some point in the future. Just speak to her. It'll help her to have all the info on the table. Then step back and let her sort everything out, and prepare yourself for the possibility that she might sort things out with her primary and stop seeing you because your feelings might cause complications. If she does this, try to see it as a good thing, because hiding your feelings would have fucked things up at some point. Other possibilities that you should consider the correct reaction to are:

- she gets back together with him but still wants you as a second. (If everyone, including him, knows the deal and is fine with it, this might be do-able. But it's high-risk for you.)

- she breaks up with him, but doesn't want to continue anything with you. (Bummer, but again it's less messy than what might have happened.)

- she breaks up with him and wants to start something with you. (Make sure you're both in it for the right reasons, and both being honest with each other!)

The only other thing is that I don't think this has anything to do with it being an open relationship. They work just as well as any other kind of relationship, as long as everyone's being honest (which this guy wasn't, obviously) and getting what they want/need.

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Maybe it might be a good idea to pick a side? Speak truth to power? I dunno. What do others think? Sal?

Whoooa no. No, hell no.

:tup:, especially that last part.

I think you're best off giving them some space at first, which is hard when your romantic feelings are probably urging you to do something do something now solve this. Trying to influence things, early on at least, is probably inviting trouble. Maybe just let her know you're there, you give a shit and you're not being neglectful. Definitely don't lay down any potentially pressure laden terms like "I love you"; I don't know what kind of person she is, but raising the stakes or making her feel more responsible for the way you feel will likely not help.

Yes. Yes, this exactly.

I really need to have a full sit down talk with her soon, ask her exactly how she feels and thinks, short term and long, about him and me and everything. I also get the feeling, from what you guys have said and one of my few friends I could turn to who doesn't know the couple agrees, that I need to put across my feelings for her in really, really plain terms. As Dan said, I hate the idea of an ultimatum, but at the very least I need to tell her how I feel and how much this situation is bothering me.

NOPE NOPE NOPE ABORT.

I know it's hard to leave the situation alone, because you feel so deeply invested in it, but although it seems counterintuitive to think so, it really has nothing to do with you. I know, right? It's crazy! But it involves a relationship that does not involve you, only Girl A and Guy A (you are Guy B, for future reference). Now is not a good time to lay your feelings out there, because Girl A currently has a full plate of shit to deal with from Guy A. Talking to her about your needs will divest the weight from your shoulders, but it will put it all on her.

My suggestion is you distance yourself for a little bit while this all sorts itself out. Be there for her, and for him, as a friend. Offer to do friend-things for her, like, I dunno, invite her out for coffee or something. If she wants to talk, she will talk. If she doesn't, don't force her, and definitely don't pile your problems on.

As for your own situation, I don't think you're in a very good place. Consider that, even if her relationship with Guy A dissolves, she is still polyamorous. If she decides to enter into a relationship with you, this is most likely not going to change. You have to really examine your feelings about it: would you be okay with that? Do you accept this part of her, or are you just suffering through it to be with her? While you wait for them to sort their things out, think about your own priorities and needs. Think about whether being in an open relationship is something you want, or something you tolerate. If it's the latter, then it's probably not all that good for you.

Also keep in mind this other thing you said:

unsure about whether I could actually successfully pursue a proper full-time relationship even if it was available.

So, if you were to tell this girl how you feel, what would you even want the answer to be?

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Man, Sal, you bring it HARD. With your blessing, I may PM you later with something on a related topic that's been bugging me but is a bit sensitive to put in a public thread.

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Sal wins, most likely... but I'd probably find myself telling her. Yes, the current problems are about a relationship you're not involved with (as painful as that must be to admit), but you do have a relationship with her, too. A weird one, true, but a relationship, non-the-less. And I'd hope there's some trust there... right?

Of course, as I said, Sal is most right when she says that heaping more shit onto Girl A's plate will most likely just ruin everything.

So... DO NOT FOLLOW MY ADVICE! :tup:

Seriously.

My only concern is that you might be turning yourself into a martyr by trying to be a good "friend"... when really you have ulterior motives. If you can genuinely be her friend, then cool, but I worry that you'll slowly convince yourself that any deeper friendship that might develop is signs of her falling for you. That doesn't seem to me to be a good place to be.

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I can't agree that he's not involved in this relationship. He's her regular second and friends with both of them. I'd say that's very involved! Granted, it's not a poly relationship that he's actually a member of, just an open one that he's connected to.

To clarify a little further, I think it's a good idea to say something now because I think you definitely need to say something at some point. If they sort things out, and everything goes back to the way it was before, you're still going to have to let her know about your feelings because otherwise you'll fuck yourself up. So I think it's better to tell her now (I agree, no "I love you"s or anything that presents expectations, just the basic info that your feelings are getting stronger) while she/they are redefining/fixing things, then step back.

With fuck buddies/open relationships/etc, there's always a risk of someone starting to get attached, but as long as that gets flagged as soon as it happens, it doesn't have to cause problems. (Obviously that's not what happened here, but I'm saying that if she's experienced at this stuff, she hopefully won't be shocked or angry at you for what you feel, and will appreciate being told in a non-problematic way.)

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