ThunderPeel2001

Books, books, books...

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Instead of vomiting a pile of fantasy books you may or may not enjoy, I'll just give you these three;

The Lies of Locke Lamora, Scott Lynch

The Gardens of the Moon, Steven Erikson

The Name of the Wind, Patrick Rothfuss

I'm sure I've mentioned these in here somewhere before, but they really are just fantastic.

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So I invested in a Kindle. Since studying a BA in English Literature put me off reading anything longer than a New Yorker article for a couple of years, I want to get back into reading prose books.

In the last couple of years, apart from huge piles of comics, I have mostly been reading stuff by Dave Eggers and Tove Jansson. Oh, and The Road, Tom Bissell's book, The Story of Forgetting and Steve Martin's memoir.

I have almost finished the rather harrowing and quite brilliant book Room, and am looking for something to pick up next. But the Kindle store is unpredictable and frustratingly sparse - and sometimes the price just isn't worth it (damn VAT).

So, please suggest some things for me to check out. I might download/read them!

Oh, I have been through the thread and made a list. Couldya believe it, they have no Hunter S. Thompson, apart from Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas?

Yeah, the Kindle Store is a bit of an uneven experience... strangely varying prices, random availability, and such. However, I must say the sample system is really pretty great for random recommendations I see from places like these forums and such.

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I don't like Kindle. I love the idea of being able to buy hard-to-find books - say the works of Anthony Burgess - in a second, but they're not doing that. I like the idea of being able to pay for (what is essentially) a text file and a little more for a hard copy, simultaneously, but they're not doing that. Books are still expensive. Look at hardcovers: it's not the material they use that's worth the extra cost, it's the fact you're getting early access to this book. It's caused misunderstandings.

All I'm saying is, people are more likely to buy more if they had gigs and gigs of space to store their books in, and if the books were cheap (hell, make the pre-1923 books free), than if a book still costs $20 but is essentially a text file.

Or what do I know. Look at Steam.

</random ranting>

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Tom Bissell's book

Extra Lives, right? I actually just finished this book. It's...interesting. He brings up some good points on games and rehashes some common ones. I'm really not sure who that book was written for; it seems like he explains too much for people who have played those games and not enough for those who haven't. Also the ending was kinda weird and out of nowhere.

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All I'm saying is, people are more likely to buy more if they had gigs and gigs of space to store their books in,

The Kindle stores over 3500 books. Surely that's more than you're likely to read in your lifetime?

and if the books were cheap (hell, make the pre-1923 books free),

Pre-copyright books ARE free.

than if a book still costs $20 but is essentially a text file.

Yeah, this is one thing I agree with. The prices are not really that much cheaper.

My problem with the Kindle is this: I think it's going to bring about the end of quality books.

Here's why: For a time, the only way to hear music was to find a band and watch them play. Then someone managed to capture their sound on a storage device, and you could have that experience without a band. Then someone found a way of sharing that recording for free, with thousands of people, e.g. MP3 files and in the internet. It was almost the same experience people had enjoyed a hundred years ago with a band.

With books, it went like this: To read a book, you had to buy it. People found ways of sharing the text for free with thousands of people, but it didn't affect anything because nobody likes reading books on their monitor screen.

Then people came up with hardware equivalents to the book itself, where people liked reading using this device... and suddenly the words became devalued, in the same way music has been. The irreplaceable experience of reading an actual book can now be shared with thousands of people at the drop of a hat...

I honestly think that once people start sharing book files like MP3s that we're going to see the end of quality literature. A publisher will no longer be able to let an author spend 10 years crafting a book... because the profits are going to be so slight.

I really hope I'm wrong, of course, but one of the draws of Amazon is knowing that I'll be able easily grab books for free. (I don't own one, so I'm not engaged in piracy, but I know that's something that crosses my mind -- and I'm sure I'm not alone.)

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I think the barrier to entry on piracy for books is high enough that most people don't want to deal with it. The Kindle only supports unprotected PDFs as far as non-DRM file formats go (I believe) and I don't think there's some Napster-equivalent to hunt down PDFs that's even close to the public consciousness.

And beyond that, there's no stopping anyone from simply ignoring the digital format and going full analog. There's no simple way to convert a physical book unless you have some high dollar book scanning device. That leaves any independent publisher who wants to write a "quality book" a fair chance. Not to mention the fact that writers now have a direct channel to sell ebooks if they choose to do so, increasing margins due to a lack of middleman (which could make up for piracy).

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I wish stores would pack in download codes with the books like Steamworks games do. For instance, Borders would pack in Kindle codes (since they're owned by Amazon) and Barnes in Noble would pack in their own codes for the Nook. Unfortunately it's probably all up to the discretion of the publishers, so that is unlikely to ever happen on a store-wide level.

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I wish stores would pack in download codes with the books like Steamworks games do. For instance, Borders would pack in Kindle codes (since they're owned by Amazon) and Barnes in Noble would pack in their own codes for the Nook. Unfortunately it's probably all up to the discretion of the publishers, so that is unlikely to ever happen on a store-wide level.

Borders is not owned by Amazon.

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My two cents, in general:

Mostly, the books are overpriced. And I'm not saying that because owning an e-reader is lowering the value of the written work, I am coming from the same perspective as with music. When you cut out much of the middle stages of production, publication and shipping, it should be cheaper. That's a kink they're still working out, especially as the machinations of the publishing industry haven't been shaken in the way the music one was before iTunes showed them a way out. (And self-publishing/releasing gave the creators an alternative - I know I'm more likely to pay more if it's a straight transaction with the artist.)

The thing with the price is that, for most of the expensive ebooks, the publishers are setting the price. Amazon are surprisingly cheeky about that, branding those book listings quite noticeably. I do think it's absurd that, for example, the Kindle edition of Franzen's Freedom is 99p more expensive than the (hardcover!) print edition. Astonishing.

I think one thing that Apple has taught us is that, if you give people easy and intuitive ways to get hold of their desired content, they will pay. And from my experience so far, the one-click Kindle store is great for that. You search, you order, bam - it's there on your Kindle. The only thing holding it back there is the price. I'm sure they'll start getting more App Store / Steam-y with the pricing and offers and so on once they get more of a foothold - and they've already done something like that (mostly with pretty dull looking books) as a 12 Days of Kindle offer.

I'd like to know more about the process. Like, when it comes to getting full bibliographies on there, is it going to be hard because - unlike in the music industry - authors don't always sign long-term contracts with single publishers? So I guess there's going to be a bit of time and negotiation to bring all those licences under the same roof. So with the example of Burgess, his novels are currently in print via (in the UK) Penguin, Vintage and a small publisher called Beautiful Books. I wonder how much it is just a case of getting the specific publisher on board, or if there are larger entanglements. Vintage, for example, have some great authors on their roster, but their support of Kindle is inconsistent, even within the same author's body of work. I wonder how much these publishing deals and contracts even cover digital distribution...

I'm not crowing too much about it. Thanks to the free pre-copyright books (which are in the Amazon store, handily), and both ebooks and PDFs I've downloaded from other sources (Gutenberg, journals like Five Dials, and Cory Doctorow's early books), I've prepared for a long drought if I can't justify buying many more. I realise I'm a relatively early adopter, but I'm a fan of the hardware and I'm willing to wait and see where it all goes.

And thanks for the rec's, Orvidos. I will check them out!

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I think the barrier to entry on piracy for books is high enough that most people don't want to deal with it. The Kindle only supports unprotected PDFs as far as non-DRM file formats go (I believe).

No, that's wrong. Plus there's plenty of ways to convert one format to another... (Plus, plus, PDF is really the last way you want to read a book on the Kindle.)

I can think of three Napster-like sites for books off the top of my head, and they've been going for years -- no idea how. Plus there's obviously countless torrents available on sites like Pirate Bay. As the popularity of eBook readers increase, so will word of mouth about these sites.

And beyond that, there's no stopping anyone from simply ignoring the digital format and going full analog. There's no simple way to convert a physical book unless you have some high dollar book scanning device. That leaves any independent publisher who wants to write a "quality book" a fair chance. Not to mention the fact that writers now have a direct channel to sell ebooks if they choose to do so, increasing margins due to a lack of middleman (which could make up for piracy).

Yes, there's no easy way to convert a book -- but pirates are doing it, and have been doing it, for years. I've no idea how. Plus, it's only going to get easier and cheaper. Hell, you can download a torrent featuring every week's comic releases. People are taking the time to do this(!). And as the market moves more towards being electronic, the idea of staying in analogue in order to avoid piracy will make less and less economic sense -- more people will be buying books online, and will expect them immediately. Refusing to move with the times does not seem a good way to beat piracy.

Secondly, as more publishers move to eBooks, they're distributing these files, so there's no need for anyone to scan them anymore... just crack them.

That means that there'll be less fringe books being released by big publishers who can afford to give the authors a decent editor, and a meagre wage while they write their books. In the same way the music industry is investing in fewer "fringe" bands, and releasing less content each year. (And more "hobby" books, that are badly researched, poorly written, and are basically like blogs.)

Basically eBook readers have finally made it completely possible to pirate something previous unpiratable... And it really worries me -- much more so than with films, music and games. But, maybe I'm just being old fashioned... it's hard to believe the publishing industry would move behind something like this, unless they could see something I can't, but the way I see it, it will ultimately drive down the price of books as publishers compete by making it more convenient to download them legally (as with iTunes, Zune, Spotify, etc.).

I hope you're right about authors being able to release things for themselves, and that making up for it, but it doesn't seem to be working out that way in the music industry... without exposure, it seems you're just a drop in the ocean.

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No, that's wrong. Plus there's plenty of ways to convert one format to another... (Plus, plus, PDF is really the last way you want to read a book on the Kindle.)

As much as you can convert and whatnot, that list isn't REALLY that much more than PDF. But I see your point.

I can think of three Napster-like sites for books off the top of my head, and they've been going for years -- no idea how. Plus there's obviously countless torrents available on sites like Pirate Bay. As the popularity of eBook readers increase, so will word of mouth about these sites.

Yes, there's no easy way to convert a book -- but pirates are doing it, and have been doing it, for years. I've no idea how. Plus, it's only going to get easier and cheaper. Hell, you can download a torrent featuring every week's comic releases. People are taking the time to do this(!). And as the market moves more towards being electronic, the idea of staying in analogue in order to avoid piracy will make less and less economic sense -- more people will be buying books online, and will expect them immediately. Refusing to move with the times does not seem a good way to beat piracy.

Secondly, as more publishers move to eBooks, they're distributing these files, so there's no need for anyone to scan them anymore... just crack them.

I still don't think the penetration of piracy for ebooks will be that high. Music is always the quintessential example of this, but I don't really think it's analogous. Firstly, I doubt ereaders will ever be as widespread as iPods. You have to put this in perspective... the Kindle has sold 8 million units while the iPod has sold over 200 million units. Not to mention the fact that the consumption model is totally different too; music is digestible in quick bursts and thus is complementary to downloading massive quantities of it, whereas books take much longer to consume. Due to these things, I simply don't think that piracy will have even close to the same impact on the book industry as the music industry.

That means that there'll be less fringe books being released by big publishers who can afford to give the authors a decent editor, and a meagre wage while they write their books. In the same way the music industry is investing in fewer "fringe" bands, and releasing less content each year. (And more "hobby" books, that are badly researched, poorly written, and are basically like blogs.)

Basically eBook readers have finally made it completely possible to pirate something previous unpiratable... And it really worries me -- much more so than with films, music and games. But, maybe I'm just being old fashioned... it's hard to believe the publishing industry would move behind something like this, unless they could see something I can't, but the way I see it, it will ultimately drive down the price of books as publishers compete by making it more convenient to download them legally (as with iTunes, Zune, Spotify, etc.).

Shifting business models are absolutely necessary in the stage of technological development we're in. Just as video games are stuck in this one-foot-in-one-foot-out digital distribution stage, books are likely to see a weird shift where prices have to be played with and categories you might not have even considered will come into play (Think XBLA/XBLIG to boxed Xbox 360 games... 10 years ago, this would have been inconceivable).

I hope you're right about authors being able to release things for themselves, and that making up for it, but it doesn't seem to be working out that way in the music industry... without exposure, it seems you're just a drop in the ocean.

I hope this doesn't seem naive, but I just don't think "book consumers" have many of the same behaviors that "music consumers" have. Author/franchise loyalty seems to have far more value to the latter, which I think will help the independent marketplace in a way that music just can't hit. Hopefully, at least. :violin:

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I still don't think the penetration of piracy for ebooks will be that high. Music is always the quintessential example of this, but I don't really think it's analogous. Firstly, I doubt ereaders will ever be as widespread as iPods. You have to put this in perspective... the Kindle has sold 8 million units while the iPod has sold over 200 million units. Not to mention the fact that the consumption model is totally different too; music is digestible in quick bursts and thus is complementary to downloading massive quantities of it, whereas books take much longer to consume. Due to these things, I simply don't think that piracy will have even close to the same impact on the book industry as the music industry.

Well, time will tell. I personally think tablets and eReaders will merge and become as commonplace as iPods. I think in the future, pretty much everyone will have one of these things... and they'll get better and better, too.

I think my main concern is that someone has made a way of pirating the unpiratable, and this will unquestionably have an impact on the industry. The question is how much.

I hope you're right!

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E-readers and piracy the end of great writing? Absolutely not. The need or basis to create stunning works of fiction emphatically does not come from money, it comes from the human urge to create something worthwhile. This will not, will never, go away.

In a way, the problem is even far less great than in, say, software development. To make a game you need the dedication of a team of people. Writing a book, though also taking time, can be done by a single person, in whatever time someone has. And you can bet Dollars to doughnuts that the best writers will still be paid. The actual book might not be the big money printing press anymore, but that's not the only source of revenue. There's movie deals, shows, signings, hell: human inventiveness will always find a way to monetize something of value.

So I honestly don't think this will change anything as regards the quality of books. The balance of good books versus bad books (say, 1 to 99) will remain :buyme:

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E-readers and piracy the end of great writing? Absolutely not. The need or basis to create stunning works of fiction emphatically does not come from money, it comes from the human urge to create something worthwhile. This will not, will never, go away.

If you can't afford to take the time to write a book, you can't afford to take the time to write a book.

In a way, the problem is even far less great than in, say, software development. To make a game you need the dedication of a team of people. Writing a book, though also taking time, can be done by a single person, in whatever time someone has. And you can bet Dollars to doughnuts that the best writers will still be paid. The actual book might not be the big money printing press anymore, but that's not the only source of revenue. There's movie deals, shows, signings, hell: human inventiveness will always find a way to monetize something of value.

Yes, so the JK Rowlings and Stephen Kings of the world will be set. They'll have a huge hit, but the fringe stuff will suffer. I'm not even sure Philip K Dick would survive today, let alone if the market becomes devalued.

So I honestly don't think this will change anything as regards the quality of books. The balance of good books versus bad books (say, 1 to 99) will remain :buyme:

But my concern is that certain books will not be written, because the market will be unable sustain the authors.

Edited by ThunderPeel2001

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The Kindle stores over 3500 books. Surely that's more than you're likely to read in your lifetime?

Haha. Well, nobody said anything about *reading* them. A lot of people just like *buying* them and telling themselves they'll read them later. Look at your own backlogs. :)

Pre-copyright books ARE free.

I saw the Complete Works of Charles Dickens being sold for $5.00 on Amazon Kindle. :/

Yeah, this is one thing I agree with. The prices are not really that much cheaper.

My problem with the Kindle is this: I think it's going to bring about the end of quality books.

I disagree. You make interesting points throughout the thread, but I think - if anything - it'll produce a lot more great writing. Oh, there'll be junk. But the day that widespread publishing becomes available to everyone is the day that truly risky and artistic artworks can be made. It's writing's answer to punk rock, except it doesn't cost a lot to make.

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Haha. Well, nobody said anything about *reading* them. A lot of people just like *buying* them and telling themselves they'll read them later. Look at your own backlogs. :)

Well I don't own 3500 books either :-/

I saw the Complete Works of Charles Dickens being sold for $5.00 on Amazon Kindle. :/

All of Dickens individual works are available for free on Kindle, but it seems that some collected editions or "special" editions cost a few dollars. (I suppose if there's any commentary, footnotes or special formatting, then the person who did that stuff would want to get paid).

But yeah, all copyright free works are available for free in the Kindle Store (I just looked). Personally I'd pay a $1 for an edition that was specially formatted for my Kindle, or that came with footnotes for those tricky references.

I disagree. You make interesting points throughout the thread, but I think - if anything - it'll produce a lot more great writing. Oh, there'll be junk. But the day that widespread publishing becomes available to everyone is the day that truly risky and artistic artworks can be made. It's writing's answer to punk rock, except it doesn't cost a lot to make.

But... widespread publishing is available to everyone, thanks to the internet. For the first time in history I can write something, and immediately someone else on the planet can search for it and find it. Ideas are free-flowing, mostly uncensored and immediately distributed everywhere... Unfortunately I don't see the internet as a paradise of creativity, although there are undoubtedly wonderful things happening, and technically, little to no boundaries, as there's just so much shit on it. Lol.

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Well I don't own 3500 books either :-/

But this isn't the same. Cheap books, available to be stored on a device, not taking up space? Don't you buy games on Steam when they're dirt cheap? Even if you're not that interested?

But... widespread publishing is available to everyone, thanks to the internet. For the first time in history I can write something, and immediately someone else on the planet can search for it and find it.

Oh, certainly. But how many people would buy a text file of a short story or novel off of your website? Not many. But get one, trusted source like Amazon, and set the prices right (this is all just theory; I don't have any numbers), and people are more likely to buy your book, without need for publishers or anything of the sort. It hopefully wouldn't be that regulated, but it makes things so much easier.

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But this isn't the same. Cheap books, available to be stored on a device, not taking up space? Don't you buy games on Steam when they're dirt cheap? Even if you're not that interested?

Yup, I sure do. Those cheap games tend to get me. 3,500 still seems like a lot to me, though. Plus, maybe the fact that I'm low on money at the moment means I have a lot less impulse buys that I used to. Or maybe I should be reading more ;(

Oh, certainly. But how many people would buy a text file of a short story or novel off of your website? Not many. But get one, trusted source like Amazon, and set the prices right (this is all just theory; I don't have any numbers), and people are more likely to buy your book, without need for publishers or anything of the sort. It hopefully wouldn't be that regulated, but it makes things so much easier.

I see what you're saying, and I hope you're right. I think the system of finding quality goods would have to improve, though... I think the ratio of shit to good might slide... a lot, unless Amazon was careful to what it allowed to be sold (unlikely).

I have friends who have self-published books that are listed on Amazon, but the prices of self-published books tends to be higher than professional ones (or sometimes equal, but never less, it seems)... So maybe you're right, if the price was less...

But I still remain unconvinced -- a market of self-made books sold at a lower price through a vendor, just doesn't sound good to me.

Time will tell, I guess.

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My Kindle screen broke, so be careful with yours, Nevsky...

Thanks for the heads-up, brkl. How did it break? I have one of the Amazon-brand covers, which seem to be well cushioned.

Another point about the Kindle: so far it's really revolutionised my reading of long-form journalism. I hate reading on the computer screen, because I usually get distracted by something else, so I grabbed a Chrome extension that converts pages into ebooks. Very good for those longer articles on Gamasutra, or The New Yorker, or wherever.

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Thanks for the heads-up, brkl. How did it break? I have one of the Amazon-brand covers, which seem to be well cushioned.

Another point about the Kindle: so far it's really revolutionised my reading of long-form journalism. I hate reading on the computer screen, because I usually get distracted by something else, so I grabbed a Chrome extension that converts pages into ebooks. Very good for those longer articles on Gamasutra, or The New Yorker, or wherever.

What's the extension?

Just finished On Target, the sequel to Mark Greaney's The Gray Man. Really cool spy/assassin/CIA guy genre stuff. Working on Karen Traviss's first shot at a Gears of War novel... it's actually not too bad so far. I've liked her entries in the Star Wars: Extended Universe, so it's not too big of a surprise that she's wringing out some good GoW material.

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I actually use instapaper to accomplish this. I would inevitablly end up with a harddrive full of .mobi files I never bothered to sync onto my kindle otherwise.

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The Kindle 3 is god damn sexy and I want one. However, I'm miffed that there isn't really full support here in the Netherlands. I'd have to import one (I guess?) and then use whatever limited selection Amazon has chosen to bequeath to the feeble strap of land that is Europe.

Maybe I'll wait a few more generations. What do you make of the trend that e-reader manufacturers are now creating hybrid tablets in a bid to win over the iPad crowd? I'd prefer seeing them further developing the specific e-ink tech and keep the device focused on the reading of books, rather than diversifying into a losing battle against Apple.

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What do you make of the trend that e-reader manufacturers are now creating hybrid tablets in a bid to win over the iPad crowd? I'd prefer seeing them further developing the specific e-ink tech and keep the device focused on the reading of books, rather than diversifying into a losing battle against Apple.

Totally agree. I'd like an e-reader that had perfect e-ink over having Firefox installed (I'd only get distracted for one thing, lol).

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