Marek

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Don't suppose anyone's seen the latest dramabomb to hit Eve?

Goons persuaded a disgruntled BoB top level director to defect; he kicked all the corps out and dissolved the alliance. There has been fierce fighting in Delv for the suddenly sovereignty free systems for nearly 24 hours now.

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Don't suppose anyone's seen the latest dramabomb to hit Eve?

Goons persuaded a disgruntled BoB top level director to defect; he kicked all the corps out and dissolved the alliance. There has been fierce fighting in Delv for the suddenly sovereignty free systems for nearly 24 hours now.

When I heard about this I immediately thought of

. Perhaps you guys should talk about the unfolding EVE events on a future podcast.

*BRONSTRING. Marek Bronstring!

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Goons persuaded a disgruntled BoB top level director to defect; he kicked all the corps out and dissolved the alliance. There has been fierce fighting in Delv for the suddenly sovereignty free systems for nearly 24 hours now.

I'm consistently astonished at how genuinely epic the dramas Eve can create are.

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The question is, how much are you asking of the story?

Are you asking it to be so damn good that it beats World of Warcraft?

Are you asking it to be so good that it advances the entire concept of game storytelling in a new and awesome way?

Or are you just asking that it be a satisfying and important part of the game?

The way it works in Final Fantasy XI, the story bits are just entertaining cinemas that let you get to know major characters in the game world. The payoff is that they're well written, teach you about the game world, have nice cinematography, animations and music backing them up. It's not interesting because it represents how awesome of a roleplaying system it is, and how big of an effect I have on the game world, it's just inherently fun and interesting to watch.

In other words, it can be really nice to have well done story sequences that are polished, and that you enjoy. And it kind of makes sense to use story to differentiate the game, because you kind of choose your game based on the world it's in. I chose Final Fantasy because I like Final Fantasy. People will choose KOTOR because they like Star Wars.

Edited by blackboxme

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yeah I think people are being unnecessarily sceptical about The Old Republic. Sure, their spokesmen were a bit more dismissive of story in things like WoW than they should have been, but they doesn't invalidate their own efforts.

If anyone can add a bit more oomph to an MMO storyline, then it's Bioware.

So basically, shut up Spaff :P:fart:

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There are also a bunch of different traditions involved here: different forms of storytelling from different RPGs. There's the KOTOR/Mass Effect tradition, the Final Fantasy tradition, the Fallout tradition and so on.

Whether a story would work in an MMO depends a lot on what you like and what tradition it comes out of. For instance, in Final Fantasy, the story is often about characters that aren't in your party and are off doing big things in the world, and that works in an MMO, because you aren't the main dude, you're just a dude chasing the main dude.

As for KOTOR style, who knows? Bioware is pretty unique, so maybe they're doing something interesting.

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I don't think story is out of place in an MMO. It can definitely add texture to the world. But BioWare's PR-talk about story being the "The Fourth Pillar" or the final piece to finally solving the big MMO puzzle strikes me as misguided. Story has no business being the focal point of an MMO. There are tons and tons and tons of other things that MMOs need to leverage -- basically, the other three pillars aren't even fully built yet. There's so many wasted opportunities in terms of world building, social architecting, etc. that making a really big thing out of the story (a.k.a. the window dressing) makes me sad.

I don't know if I explained that well. I'm also possibly picking on The Old Republic for something that's happening across the board in MMO design, I dunno.

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I don't think story is out of place in an MMO. It can definitely add texture to the world. But BioWare's PR-talk about story being the "The Fourth Pillar" or the final piece to finally solving the big MMO puzzle strikes me as misguided. Story has no business being the focal point of an MMO. There are tons and tons and tons of other things that MMOs need to leverage -- basically, the other three pillars aren't even fully built yet. There's so many wasted opportunities in terms of world building, social architecting, etc. that making a really big thing out of the story (a.k.a. the window dressing) makes me sad.

I don't know if I explained that well. I'm also possibly picking on The Old Republic for something that's happening across the board in MMO design, I dunno.

Well, it seems like you might be deliberately misinterpreting "The Fourth Pillar" to be "The Only Pillar."

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I don't think story is out of place in an MMO. It can definitely add texture to the world. But BioWare's PR-talk about story being the "The Fourth Pillar" or the final piece to finally solving the big MMO puzzle strikes me as misguided. Story has no business being the focal point of an MMO. There are tons and tons and tons of other things that MMOs need to leverage -- basically, the other three pillars aren't even fully built yet. There's so many wasted opportunities in terms of world building, social architecting, etc. that making a really big thing out of the story (a.k.a. the window dressing) makes me sad.

I don't know if I explained that well. I'm also possibly picking on The Old Republic for something that's happening across the board in MMO design, I dunno.

That's Bioware for you: they're always disappointing somebody by aiming toward the mainstream.

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Erm what, Chris? It seems like you might be deliberately misinterpreting my post. :shifty: Seriously that kind of one-liner comment is a bit annoying.

Bioware has - at least seemingly - directed a lot of attention towards story in The Old Republic as that's pretty much the only thing they've discussed, and the game is being pitched heavily as "hey you like MMOs? well guess what, the master storytellers have just arrived". While it's not the only pillar it is to them a pretty freaking massive pillar. So I don't think it's unfair for me to question the importance of storytelling in MMOs relative to other elements.

By the way, I think Bioware's games are generally wonderful. My skepticism towards The Old Republic has nothing to do with "going mainstream". I guess everyone missed the point of my post so perhaps I didn't explain it well at all then.

Edited by Marek

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Hmm, I think Chris's one-liner did cut to the problem for those of us that disagree with you. Bioware have pointed out that they are giving story equal footing with their four-pillar metaphor, and to be fair Bioware as a developer are all about story. It's only you who seem to be assuming that they will invariably do a disservice to the other pillars. I'm sure they will talk about gameplay/social systems etc more as the engine develops.

Really, a lot of sceptics are making assumptions when it is way too early in creation to tell. We've barely seen anything, yet, so there's no point in inventing hypothetical problems.

As I said, I really don't get people's problems with this game. It's an awesome announcement and people have been chanting its name for years prior to the official thumbs up. Now suddenly they announce it and there's a huge backlash. WTF people?

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If it helps, I was against it when it was in the rumours as well. Same reason I'm against WoW. The current games, in a formula I enjoy, have really got me invested in the series and mythology. Now I'll never see what comes next because they've decided they like subscription fees. Sigh.

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What comes next? The stories in the KotOR games were all wrapped up. In fact even the second game's plot felt very shoe-horned in.

So really, don't look at it as if you're losing something. Look at it as a chance to gain something (even if that something is only the awesome stories those of that play it will tell you).

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Erm what, Chris? It seems like you might be deliberately misinterpreting my post. :shifty: Seriously that kind of one-liner comment is a bit annoying.

Bioware has - at least seemingly - directed a lot of attention towards story in The Old Republic as that's pretty much the only thing they've discussed, and the game is being pitched heavily as "hey you like MMOs? well guess what, the master storytellers have just arrived". While it's not the only pillar it is to them a pretty freaking massive pillar. So I don't think it's unfair for me to question the importance of storytelling in MMOs relative to other elements.

By the way, I think Bioware's games are generally wonderful. My skepticism towards The Old Republic has nothing to do with "going mainstream". I guess everyone missed the point of my post so perhaps I didn't explain it well at all then.

Surely you could allow for the fairly likely possibility that the stuff they're heavily discussing in their public relations schedule does not perfectly map to the stuff they're actually focusing on in development. Whether or not it's a massive pillar, again I feel like you're just making assumptions about its relative weight compared to the others.

Also for what it's worth, I have plans to play this game at all and am not personally interested in it, so I'm not just trying to come to defense of my favorite game or anything like that.

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My skepticism towards The Old Republic has nothing to do with "going mainstream".

Sorry to derail the conversation, and I don't mean to say that you're an elitist or anything like that. It's just something that I've noticed in Bioware games starting with KOTOR.

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Also, my posts were mainly in response to the old argument against MMO stories: that the illusion of the story is broken by having everyone do the same quests.

I don't really buy that argument because I enjoyed FFXI's story quite a bit. That could be because of one of two reasons:

1) MMO stories can be structured so that there is no notion that you are some kind of singular hero character, but instead the main protagonists of the world are NPCs, and you reveal their story over time (as in FFXI and possibly KOTOR)

or

2) I am some kind of wapanese kid who will say he likes anything to do with Japan (as in FFXI)

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Don't suppose anyone's seen the latest dramabomb to hit Eve?

Goons persuaded a disgruntled BoB top level director to defect; he kicked all the corps out and dissolved the alliance. There has been fierce fighting in Delv for the suddenly sovereignty free systems for nearly 24 hours now.

Persuaded is hardly what happened. I am in BNC the corp that the defector came from and stole some stuff from. The guy basically said to goons 'hey I can do all this stuff, I'll do it if you accept me, hug me and be nice to me'.

As goons always eloquently put it, welp.

I actually really liked the guy who did it, he seems to have done a complete 180 in personality, but maybe not who knows. All we do know is that we're getting constant fights on our front door step and loving every second of it.

The best part is if we do win, goons (and not to mention 9/10ths of EVE) will have no excuses for not killing us. Only another week and a half to kick us out before Sov 3 ticks in and we get cyno jammed systems with our >9000 titans. Lots of fun yet to come.

*dons flame retardant suit*

e: sorry I'm late lulz

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.

The best part is if we do win, goons (and not to mention 9/10ths of EVE) will have no excuses for not killing us. Only another week and a half to kick us out before Sov 3 ticks in and we get cyno jammed systems with our >9000 titans. Lots of fun yet to come.

That whole section made me feel so very, very old, and alone.

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Six - I presume reports of the amount stolen were wildly exaggerated?

KenZoku have done really well out of this, and the Goons (which I am assuming is true to form) achieved a quick victory at the expense of...well a great deal it seems.

So you guys have pretty much recaptured most of your systems back, Sov 3 is about to tick in with no real large scale challenge likely to be mounted before then.

The Goons, on the other hand, gained 4 systems from yourselves at the expense of losing 40.

I have been told (I'm still a newcomer to eve really) that BoB traditionally are at their best in a crisis, and that said crises tend to bring the old vets out of hiding who are otherwise bored with Eve...hence they are getting some lovely fights out of it.

Over in the South east we are getting stuck into CVA pets, and one of them is starting to crumble.

Iced teas all round :P

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I got the gist. Sounds like some spectacular "PEW PEW PEW!" shit going down out there. I sort of feel like I'm missing out. On the other hand, a large part of me is sort of relieved there's at least one kind of geek jargon I don't understand.

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I guess what I'm saying is not really about The Old Republic, and it's my mistake to use that game as some kind of poster child for my personal issues with the MMO genre. Having worked at an MMO company I have a lot of pent-up frustration with how pretty much all MMOs are designed, and I'm taking it out on this particular game because, at least on first impression, it seems to venture furthest in the opposite direction of where the genre as a whole has the most to gain.

To be clear I don't think Bioware will do a disservice to the other pillars. I'm expecting them to do a very competent job with it and I know they're going to discuss them in the future. I'm definitely planning to play The Old Republic, and I believe it has the potential to de-throne WoW as the most popular MMO experience. I just think that across the board there are much more fundamental issues with MMOs that should be addressed, whereas storytelling is of relatively minor importance in advancing the genre of massively online games beyond what is already offered by current MMOs or singleplayer games.

Blackboxme: OK I see, that's cool. :) I don't follow the Bioware fan community, but I can imagine that "going mainstream" or "dumbing down" have been recurring issues there ever since they started making games for consoles as well. I didn't mean to make a connection with that. I'm just ranting on a seperate path.

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Marek - was it you that used to work at NCSoft? I presume you used to work on Tabula Rasa?

I played that for a while, but it was a carbon copy of WoW but in space, and since I didn't like WoW, I didn't resub after a month or two.

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Six - I presume reports of the amount stolen were wildly exaggerated?

KenZoku have done really well out of this, and the Goons (which I am assuming is true to form) achieved a quick victory at the expense of...well a great deal it seems.

So you guys have pretty much recaptured most of your systems back, Sov 3 is about to tick in with no real large scale challenge likely to be mounted before then.

The Goons, on the other hand, gained 4 systems from yourselves at the expense of losing 40.

I have been told (I'm still a newcomer to eve really) that BoB traditionally are at their best in a crisis, and that said crises tend to bring the old vets out of hiding who are otherwise bored with Eve...hence they are getting some lovely fights out of it.

Over in the South east we are getting stuck into CVA pets, and one of them is starting to crumble.

Iced teas all round :P

Uhh, well ISK wise no, BNC lost about 15 Dreads and a few bil, the executor corp lost like 8 bil. So ~40-50 bil - long, long, long way from the largest heist in EVE history, and the dreads are very replaceable.

The biggest hit was the drop in all our sov. I wouldn't say Sov 3 is around the corner - we have a very very long week and a half ahead of us to hold on to most of our systems. Several are very hotly contested and I think they hold POS superiority in one system with all moons covered (PL holds the towers).

I don't know about the goons gaining x amount of systems. Their plan is to make their new home in delve and in order to try to avoid what happened last time they did this they are burning all bridges behind them so goons won't just go back to the safety of their home systems in detroid or tenerifis and mine and rat all day instead of being at the front. This is a huge gamble and a play I actually admire. Too bad their goons :fart:

I'm still not sure where you're getting the numbers. I guess we have lost several systems if you count Querious and Period Basis, although we're still hanging on to Period Basis afaik. Not much has been going on there, most is directed at Delve. The north is planting towers (again) in Querious which they will quickly lose (again) if we hold onto Delve (again).

One thing that's always impressed me with BoB/TAFKAB (The Alliance Formerly Known As BoB) is how awesome they are under pressure, and I'm still impressed being inside for 9 months now. Molle on TS is just as fucking cool and calm as you can get in even the most tense of situations, it's really great.

Anyways, we should probably stop derailing this thread. I'd make a new post, but I think there's a good chance you and I are the only ones that would care about it lol!

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