Chris

Idle Thumbs 13: Manipulated Through Time

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I'm generally on the side of PC, but the podcast definitely reminded me that people are more likely to prefer whichever they learned first. I'd say the mouse probably has a steeper learning curve at the beginning, but ultimately gives more precise control. You are more able actualise your intent, as they current jargon goes.

Scribl, the jerking the thumbstick thing is not something I've tried. I think that might be a more advanced technique - most people have to hold the thumbstick to the side until the view reaches where they want. Is tapping it an intended gross control mechanic, or is that just your personal style? Things like the analogue speed, trigger and control scheme are good points. 'Weight' has been simulated on PC with things like weapon drag.

Soupface has it right about the mouse giving both gross and fine control at the same time. rather than tapping and then using fine movements, you can turn and aim in a single movement.

Halo is indeed designed for consoles, and was the first game to do that properly, which is why it became so popular. But a console FPS can be ported to PC and still be playable, whilst going the other way requires more tweaks to allow for slower reactions.

But yeah both platforms are totally justified. I always get my arse kicked on console shooters, whereas I can hold my own on PC. It's just what I have more experience with.

One other interesting thing; I was playing CoD4 with my teenage cousin over christmas and he had the edge over me. What I found most frustrating was that my sense of navigation was dulled. I felt less immersed and had less awareness of my surroundings than when I play on PC. I'm not sure, but I think it might be that on PC I can flick my view around anywhere in the sphere, much in the same way we flick our eyes around in real life without even being aware of it.

What this did though was make me think more strategically. Not being able to rely on twitch skills I started thinking ahead, causing diversions and throwing grenades at where I predicted my cousin would run to in reaction to them. Once I started playing cat-and-mouse mind games with him I started winning more, and perhaps this is something the slower pace of console FPS encourages.

Edited by DanJW

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All that said, I can't get enough of L4D on PC. I tried the demo on 360 first, but seeing the Valve logo on a TV screen freaked me out.

It's funny how many times I've heard that cited (and I agree!).

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Halo is indeed designed for consoles, and was the first game to do that properly, which is why it became so popular.

Halo is an excellent game, but to credit it as the first successful, comfortable-on-consoles first-person shooter is to overlook GoldenEye on the Nintendo 64. That game did a lot of things well, made excellent use of the console controller, and sold 8 million copies (whereas Halo sold 5 million, according to Wikipedia).

I played a lot of Halo split-screen in high-school, but probably not half as much as I did GoldenEye.

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Scribl, the jerking the thumbstick thing is not something I've tried. I think that might be a more advanced technique - most people have to hold the thumbstick to the side until the view reaches where they want. Is tapping it an intended gross control mechanic, or is that just your personal style?

I'm not sure. It's something I wasn't even conscious of until my friends pointed it out while watching me play Halo 3. I do play on a higher sensitivity than the default, so that might play a part too.

@Soupface

The difference is that Halo is still playable today. >_>

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Yeah, Goldeneye is a mess now.

I actually learnt to play with a mouse and keyboard first but it is a style that I never grew accustomed to. In recent chats with a friend who suffers from RSI he pointed something out that I had never thought of that fits perfectly in to why I prefer controllers over K+M.

He said that while using a controller he is in a much more relaxed and comfortable state, both from body posture and hand postion (the main reason he suffered from RSI was largely due to typing on a keyboard). I thought about it and also my disposition towards gaming and I just find PC gaming more stressful. I mean, I like challenging games but the way I'm forced to pose when playing PC games feels unnatural.

If I was playing games competively, going to tournaments, there is no way I could advocate a controller as the peripheral of choice but I don't and therefore prefer the slouchy, relaxed feel of melting into a chair approach of consoles.

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The bit about the Prince of Persia's awful storytelling skills had me stifling hysterics. Unless that's a contradiction, in which case I was just stifling enthusiastic laughter. Wait, that's not how it happened. What I actually said was much more witty.

On the subject of the new Prince of Persia, my problem with it is not the difficulty (lack thereof) or the rescue mechanic in particular, but rather the larger feeling of distance from the character and the world he's in. At the risk of being another tit going on about "immersion", I didn't find myself at all invested in the whole experience. Of course, the lack of consequence for any of my actions played into this: if death becomes meaningless, staying alive is similarly less meaningful (like the end of another game I'll try to avoid spoiling, but maybe I already have), but the whole game seemed to have very little interest in getting me involved. The first thing I noticed, and for me the biggest problem, is the environment. It just doesn't make any sense. You could accuse a lot of games of being a sequence of gameplay scenarios with a thin veneer of fictional context thrown over them, but Prince of Persia has passed out of the fairly generous reaches of my suspension of disbelief. Apart from being made from fitting materials, the whole place, other than the occasional pillar or balustrade is just a bunch of meaningless shapes and jump pads. Coupled with the ubiquitous metal hoops and the scratch marks mentioned on the podcast, you're left with a series of very loosely themed obstacle courses. I'm OK fantasy settings, as long as there's some sort of coherent fiction to it. I thought the scenery in the distance was pretty cool. I'm fine with the platforms suspended by balloons and the huge towers balancing on impossibly thin spires of rock; the problem emerges once you get close to things. Sure, the castle in Sands of Time was pretty ridiculous, with all its traps and levers, but at least I could imagine some sort of purpose to some of the stuff. In the new game it all just seems abstract. It felt empty, but not for the lack of enemies. I guess I'd have to call it a soulless environment. I suppose the original Prince of Persia was an unrepentant of collection of platforms and traps, but I think the standards I hold 2D games to must be different than those for 3D games. By analogy, I'm totally OK with Sonic running through loop-the-loops and weird geometric-yet-grassy scenery in 2D, but as soon as you put it in 3D it all seems ridiculous (which isn't to say that realism is a better route for the Sonic games to take by any means). I guess I just think about the two formats differently.

As for the gameplay itself, it wasn't so much the easiness as the lack of control that bothered me. On arriving at a juncture, the player takes a quick look around, sees the two or three obvious paths that can be taken, picks one, and from then on pretty much just has to press buttons to keep the prince moving along a pre-defined path. I've heard it being compared to a rhythm game on a couple of occasions, but the window for each button press is far too broad for it to even be that. Which isn't to say that I didn't "die" a lot, but the fact that I did is probably at least as much to do with the fact that nothing in the game really mattered to me as much as anything else. And it's also not to say that I'd rather the game was punishing with its timing; the opposite, in fact. One of the things that was great about the original Prince of Persia was that it operated according to a visible grid, and that after a bit of playing you learnt how far the prince could jump from a standstill, or from a running start, and whether he would land on his feet or grab the ledge with his hands, and as long as you pressed jump within the last square or two before an edge, he would wait until the last second before jumping. The game helped you do things more skilled and impressive-looking than you might otherwise have managed, but it was still you in the driver's seat. In the new game, you pretty much just pick a direction and say "go". I don't really feel like I'm in much control at all. It's like the prince is doing his thing, and I'm shouting "Jump! Grab that ring! Slide down that wall! Don't fall to your death!" from the sidelines, putting me one step further removed from what's actually going on. I, too, would like to enter a room, survey its contents, and work out what I need to do to get where.

Also, it might just be me, but the prince seemed to be a little bit too capable, probably because of his claw. While I can't deny the coolness of being able to run along ceilings (something which I think would be a very cool once-or-twice moment in a better game), his ability to jump indefinitely between wall-runs and slide down walls for as long as he liked seemed like too much. I was OK with using banners to descend, so I don't know if it's a matter of realism or constraint or what. It may even be the timing. When I first did a wall-run in the new game, it felt all wrong. I got used to it, but it never had the sense that all that was carrying the prince was pure momentum, and that he might fall down at any moment.

The next point wasn't a particularly major deal to me, because I'm used to the writing in games ranging from bad to bizarre, but the pair's banter does a good job at deflating any sense of grandeur or mystery the game might have been trying to develop.

I thought I had more to say, but I'm drawing a blank at the moment, so that'll have to be the end of my thrilling rant. Despite all this, I didn't hate the game. I took the time to finish it. I just didn't feel much at all about the whole experience. I may also be romanticizing the older games. Still, I think the essence of what I've said stands. I'd also like to say that hunting for light seeds was one of the better parts of the game for me. It encouraged exploration, and occasionally a small amount of deviation from the very obvious tracks set out for you.

Sorry, that was a bit long. Should it have gone in another thread?

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skip (of 1up fame) said that the Idle Thumb podcast was a good listen, so i decided to try it out. Very impressed with it and I am now a subscriber.

:tup:

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Yeah, I've really been enjoying the podcast as well. Idle Thumbs and the Brainy Gamer are really the only (electronic) game-related podcasts I listen to anymore.

The discussion early in this episode about weird post-play sensory issues reminded me of a strange little episode I had a few years ago, when "Young Hearts Be Free Tonight" by Rod Stewart came on the radio, and I found myself reminiscing fondly about listening to it one night while driving through the mountains in the rain... until half a second later, when I realized that was only something that had happened while playing GTA: San Andreas.

Edited by HFL99

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Oh yeah, the challenge rooms in Bionic Commando kind of fucked my vision up for a while after I stopped. I spent a day of playing those and doing very little else. That's a good way to feel worthless in at least two ways. But the scrolling backgrounds made it seem like the whole world was sliding past my eyes.

My friend John got obsessed with playing Tetris on his phone once. I was talking to him in a pub garden, and he seemed distant. He was peering over my shoulder. Eventually he explained that he really wanted a T block so that he could slot it between the roofs of the two buildings over the road.

I find it's often puzzle games or games with simple repetitive graphics that leave a lasting impression on the mind or the eyes in that sense. On the other hand, my sister, who doesn't play games much, got really into Mario 64, and told me that while walking down the corridors at school she felt as though she could duck and then launch into a long jump in order to get down there quicker, and actually had to restrain herself from jumping on our cats' heads.

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Oh yeah, the challenge rooms in Bionic Commando kind of fucked my vision up for a while after I stopped. I spent a day of playing those and doing very little else. That's a good way to feel worthless in at least two ways. But the scrolling backgrounds made it seem like the whole world was sliding past my eyes.

My friend John got obsessed with playing Tetris on his phone once. I was talking to him in a pub garden, and he seemed distant. He was peering over my shoulder. Eventually he explained that he really wanted a T block so that he could slot it between the roofs of the two buildings over the road.

I find it's often puzzle games or games with simple repetitive graphics that leave a lasting impression on the mind or the eyes in that sense. On the other hand, my sister, who doesn't play games much, got really into Mario 64, and told me that while walking down the corridors at school she felt as though she could duck and then launch into a long jump in order to get down there quicker, and actually had to restrain herself from jumping on our cats' heads.

I remember reading a letter in a magazine from a guy that played too much GTA. He and a friend came out of a pub, but their lift was nowhere to be seen, so he just said "Hold on a sec, I'll just steal a car and we can-"

I went through the same thing with those challenge rooms, I sat and played them until 3 AM one night and it was all I thought about the next day.

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Once I played GTA: Vice City for several hours and then immediately afterwards went to my driving lessons. DON'T DO THIS. I had to focus VERY HARD on the fact that this was no longer GTA, and even then I was super overconfident and caused my teacher to shit bricks at least once.

Video games. Not affecting life.

This other time I played lots of Pizza Tycoon and then over the next couple of days I randomly started a pizza restaurant, invented several new pizzas that were unheard of before (and were particularly popular amongst white collar workers for some reason?) and then sold the restaurant at great profit.

Wait, no, that didn't happen.

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Sounds like fun, I haven't bothered to start driving yet, but when I do I'll definitely play Burnout or Ridge Racer beforehand :tup:

More anecdotes:

When I played Shenmue for the first time I began mixing up in game time and real time. Almost went to my bed at noon.

When I was about eight or nine I became totally obsessed by Ocarina of Time, by the time I got to Ganon's Castle it was all I could think about and I spent literally hours of school time that could have been spent doing work daydreaming about it. A similar thing happened with Banjo-Kazooie, I even did a piece of creative writing that employed fairly liberal use of "inspiration", i.e. nicking the whole world and characters.

Also, one time I played Puzzle Fighter so much and for such extended periods of time that I nearly went totally mental from the music playing in my head. After a few days I felt like drop kicking (drop-kick, dropkick?) a child in the forehead to ease the frustration.

Those aren't as thrilling as some, but it happens to all of us to some degree I'm sure.

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Once I played GTA: Vice City for several hours and then immediately afterwards went to my driving lessons. DON'T DO THIS. I had to focus VERY HARD on the fact that this was no longer GTA, and even then I was super overconfident and caused my teacher to shit bricks at least once.

Video games. Not affecting life.

Yeah, just after I'd passed my test I had to avoid playing Wipeout 2097 or Destruction Derby 2 before going out in the car, or I'd be a super-aggressive driver and speed everywhere.

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Once I played GTA: Vice City for several hours and then immediately afterwards went to my driving lessons. DON'T DO THIS. I had to focus VERY HARD on the fact that this was no longer GTA, and even then I was super overconfident and caused my teacher to shit bricks at least once.

I had sort of a similar experience once. I was playing a lot of Hot Pursuit 2 against a friend. Pretty much right after it we drove to something with my friend driving. After a couple of seconds he noticed he was going 80+kmph on a 50 road (just wide enough for 2 cars passing at a low speed, and soft curbs). But it wasn't a busy street.

I think the cause was that he sort of got used to the high speeds, engine sound, etc. I also think his awareness and reaction performance was heightened. Anyway.... in real life there is no "reset" button. Traffic rules don't make the road safe, it's the drivers/traffic participants that make the road safe.

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I think Sonic the Hedgehog had a major influence in getting me to draw a lot, which later turned into a job. I'd spend hours in the 1st and 2nd grade drawing Sonic, Knuckles, and Tails going on half assed adventures being manipulated through time.

It was different to draw Sonic back in 1991-1993, as there was none of this weird furry baggage shit going along with it, and there were no anime storylines.

A lot of my comics ended with Kirby swallowing everyone as my Deus ex machina device ending.

But that's it... I don't have any hilarious stories about me playing a ton of Pipe Dream and then rearranging the school plumbing on accident or something.

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These podcast things are neato. :tup: They're like a substitute for conversation about Video Games for those of us who have no* corporeal friends who play games.

___

*Practically. I have no idea how this came to be.

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Hey Kingz! Zivanadivniodncviic!

Okay, half the forum is probably wondering what's going on here. Kingzjester: forum veteran, also wrote and did art for Idle Thumbs, in fact the logo was drawn by him.

Nice to see you posting again. :tup:

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