Soo Star Wars The Old Republic tomorrow then eh?

[Spaff]

http://swtor.bioware.com/

http://www.planetyega.de/games/swtor/

There is both room for win and fail here, but then again that's true of everything.

I go totally gay over KoToR, but Mass effect, whilst an awesome universe etc, was a chore to actually play...

I wonder which it will be!

or is it all a hoax / fake / lie / not true at all shhh.

Thoughts?

[DanJW]

http://swtor.bioware.com/

Thoughts?

SPOOOOOOOOOOOOOGE!!!!!!

:clap::woohoo::tup::tup::worship::kiss::kiss:

[Spaff]

(((((()))))))

?

[Chris]

I will be there, as will Nick I assume. Hopefully there's no embargo, then we can talk about it on this week's episode.

[miffy495]

If it's an MMO, even a KOTOR one, I gotta say: "meh."

I just don't like the genre, and it keeps on irritating me to see worlds that I'm otherwise a big fan of (Warcraft, Dawn of War) being realized in a way that I'm simply not motivated to ever experience. I love KOTOR and want more of it, but single player please. I just can't seem to see the appeal of an MMO.

[Scrobbs]

What don't you like about them? I've tried to play the WoW and WAR - and packed them in within a matter of weeks - got bored with the grind - sure the spell chase was good for a while, but ultimately disappointing. I kind of want to like them - in fact I've started playing EVE this week, and so far I'm liking it. It's a lot more relaxing that the other kinds, mainly because you can 'level' without having to be logged in. That, and death kind of means something.

[DanJW]

I just can't seem to see the appeal of an MMO.

Really? It's one thing to say that it's not your cup of tea. It's another thing entirely to say that you can't see why ayone else would play them.

I mean, do you actually want us to explain the appeal to you?

[syntheticgerbil]

Wait, I thought this was supposed to be a Loom sequel...

[Erkki]

Gamespot has some info already (and a video):

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/starwarstheoldrepublic/news.html?sid=6199726&mode=news

[Erkki]

Wow... they claim TOR has more story content than ALL BioWare games put together (including the ones developed by Obsidian, and all the expansions). I don't play MMO's, but maybe I'll start once this gets released...

[n0wak]

What we're really doing is Knights of the Old Republic 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12-plus. We have that much content and that many stories...We really get to do a lot of things we really wouldn't get to do in [a] KOTOR 3."

[...]

"The biggest challenge for this game is the sheer amount of content you have to create," boasted Ohlen. "This is a HUGE game. Just to give you an idea of how huge this game is, we were taking a look at it, and it has more story content than every single other BioWare game that's come before put together.

OK, I'd like to give Bioware the benefit of the doubt, but to me that seems like the kind of over-hyping that is destined to fail. They said some pretty fucking ambitious things about Star Wars Galaxies too. Look where that got them.

[miffy495]

Really? It's one thing to say that it's not your cup of tea. It's another thing entirely to say that you can't see why ayone else would play them.

True. What I meant was that I can't really see anything about the genre that appeals to me. It seems like work. Like something that you have to finish before you can go play something fun. Even the best of online multiplayer games have yet to grab me for any more than the occasional round of co-op. I don't even "get" TF2, which is supposed to be the second coming. (sorry to bring it up again, Remo) I just don't see anything I find fun in MMOs, and it saddens me to see series that I love go that route and effectively exclude me from further entries.

I mean, do you actually want us to explain the appeal to you?

I'm good, thanks.

[DanJW]

Fair enough.

Having had a chance to read the available materials, I profess to be a tiny bit dissappointd by the setting. I was hoping for the same Jedi Civil War period as the KOTOR games, but they've bumped it 300 years on - so no Revan to give me jedi assassination orders .

In addition they seem to have pulled this Return of the True Sith thing out of Lucas' ass. Prior to this the expanded universe just hinted at the fact that the True Sith might still be waiting out there. Revan and the Exile left the galaxy to confront this mysterious possibility in some region of space which seemed to be intrinsically different in an unexplained way, and their legends were better for having no answer to it.

Now it turns out the True Sith did return actually, that one time that we didn't mention before, and they're just your basic empire like in the original trilogy (which is handy for evoking movie period in your game). No real mystery or menace there, just garden variety Evil Emporer lording over garden variety troopers.

Still, hopefully the fates of Revan and the Exile will be told through a quest line or three, and be done in such a way as to not be so anticlimactic.

[LOPcagney]

If it's an MMO, even a KOTOR one, I gotta say: "meh."

I just don't like the genre, and it keeps on irritating me to see worlds that I'm otherwise a big fan of (Warcraft, Dawn of War) being realized in a way that I'm simply not motivated to ever experience. I love KOTOR and want more of it, but single player please. I just can't seem to see the appeal of an MMO.

I'm with you. It's not that I don't see how people could have fun with an MMO, but I despise monthly charges. I don't think there's any game I would pay monthly to play. Going along with the whole craziness about Spore recently, when I buy something, I want to own it and be able to play it whenever I want on my own terms. Knowing I'd have to shell out $15 just to keep playing would stress me out.

[lobotomy42]

You know, I could get behind a persistent world. I could even get behind a monthly fee.

But interacting with other people - live people - is just too much. I don't want my Star Wars corrupted by talking to a bunch of my fellow nerds while I'm in the middle of it. It completely kills any suspension of disbelief! I play games to escape reality, not talk to more of it.

On the other hand, I *love* the KOTOR games. Seriously, they're among my all time favorite games. So the decision to go this route could not have annoyed me more.

In fact, it seems like *exactly* the kind of decision that came out of a board meeting. As if someone at Bioware suddenly decided "Hey, let's do a MMO!" and then everyone decided Star Wars was the safest route, IP-wise. I honestly can't imagine the writers of either KotOR 1 at Bioware or KotOR 2 at Obsidian would have wanted an MMO to wrap up the story...

Except they openly admitted that they aren't even going to bother attempting to wrap up the other games. Great. So it's not like "KotOR 3, 4,5 and 6" at all. It's just Yet Another MMO, this time in the pre-saga Star Wars universe.

Hmm. But part of me still has hope. Maybe I'll just buy it, play it for a month, and then cancel my subscription. And, you know, ignore all those obnoxious "players" during that time.

[DanJW]

Hmm. But part of me still has hope. Maybe I'll just buy it, play it for a month, and then cancel my subscription. And, you know, ignore all those obnoxious "players" during that time.

Chances are you can block all chat channels, and speech bubbles (with the exception of people on your friends list if you want). You can in WoW and other MMOs anyway. Then all those other players just become ambiance. The major story elements are likely to be instanced as well, so if you're not in a group then you will experience them solo (Han Solo... doh couldn't resist).

From what Bioware said in the interview they have been wanting to do an MMO "for almost ten years". And this is a good choice of IP for the project. So what? Dismissing it as "Bioware wouldn't have chosen to do this unless they had somehow been forced to" is a silly stance to take.

The weird thing about MMO haters, it seems to me, is not only do they not want to play them - which is fair enough - but they don't want anyone else to be allowed to enjoy them either

[thorn]

Speaking as someone who has never played an MMO or any Star Wars games (yeah, I know...), I'm imagining a gigantic universe where everyone is a jedi. How is that going to work?

[brkl]

The weird thing about MMO haters, it seems to me, is not only do they not want to play them - which is fair enough - but they don't want anyone else to be allowed to enjoy them either

It's of a bummer if you're a fan of RPGs for Bioware to be tied up doing something of zero interest to you for years.

[Scrobbs]

Speaking as someone who has never played an MMO or any Star Wars games (yeah, I know...), I'm imagining a gigantic universe where everyone is a jedi. How is that going to work?

Which is exactly what happened with Galaxies. At first it was hard to get the holocrons in order to train the jedi skillzzzz. Then they did a massive overhaul, and actually included a jedi as one of the classes to roll when you start the game. What was a fairly sub-standard MMO became fucking awful.

[DanJW]

Speaking as someone who has never played an MMO or any Star Wars games (yeah, I know...), I'm imagining a gigantic universe where everyone is a jedi. How is that going to work?

Well, the Old Republic setting helps. During that time period there were actually a lot of Jedi. Still, I expect they will outnumber non-jedi players a bit too much, and in general Jedi will probably be weaker than they should be due to balance issues.

It's of a bummer if you're a fan of RPGs for Bioware to be tied up doing something of zero interest to you for years.

Well they have several projects on the go at once. I've been keeping up with Dragon Age for instance, which is ounding very promising. Plus Mass Effect 2 is in there somewhere. If you love KOTOR especially then perhaps this will be an incentive to give this particular MMO a try.

[lobotomy42]

From what Bioware said in the interview they have been wanting to do an MMO "for almost ten years". And this is a good choice of IP for the project. So what? Dismissing it as "Bioware wouldn't have chosen to do this unless they had somehow been forced to" is a silly stance to take.

That's fair - I don't *know* for sure that the interest on their part isn't genuine, but, likewise, you don't know that it is. My speculation was mostly based on my own preferences: If I wanted to build an MMO, I'd certainly want to start everything fresh in an original universe where it makes sense. But it seems Bioware feels differently.

It's of a bummer if you're a fan of RPGs for Bioware to be tied up doing something of zero interest to you for years.

Exactly. It's not that I have qualms with the existence of MMOs or people creating them and playing them. I just personally dislike them, and would rather see Bioware devote its resources to a KotOR 3, or any kind of attempt, really, to wrap up the loose ends of KotOR 2. An "Old Republic" MMO is fine, not necessarily my cup of tea, but fine. I just wish it didn't have to mean that I'll never get to see the game that I really wanted to see.

[lobotomy42]

Also, from here, about eight minutes in:

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/starwarstheoldrepublic/video/6199708

The big difference in what makes it so impactful, when people are playing and they realize, is you have no save button. One of the ways people have traditionally played Bioware games, a lot of people, is "Oh my god, that's huge. F10." [mimics hitting F10] Right? And then you reload it and you're like "Oh, that would've happened, that's exciting." Welp, guess what, you're however many dozens of hours into a massively multi-player online game. That decision is going to make huge ramifications, that is going to affect for hours and hours and hours, and you have to make it and you have to live with it. And it really puts an impact onto choices and storytelling that makes them much stronger than we've ever been able to do in a game.

(Note: This is just an observation about the game industry and gamers, and not really a criticism of Bioware or TOR.)

To me, this is something that could only possibly be a selling point in the games industry. They are advertising the fact that, after "dozens of hours" of playing, you can make a irreversible decision that might negatively affect your enjoyment if the story. As in, if ever want to do a second playthrough down a different path, you'll have to start a new character from scratch. ("Isn't it great? You can spend huge amounts of time developing your character and progressing through the game, only to make the wrong choice at a critical moment and regret it for the rest of the game! This is what makes your choices meaningful!")

If this were any other type of product besides a game, no one would dream of marketing how punishing it was. ("In this book, you can't turn back to a previous page! You can only start over from the first page!") Obviously, this isn't the first time a game developer has bragged about the difficulty of their product. Although it is a little perverse, I think, to take pride in how difficult and punishing your game is. (Or at least it is if you consider games solely as entertainment products.)

But, hey, everyone does it, and I have to admit - it does make me interested in the game. Ergo, gamers are all insane masochists.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Oh brother... I LOVED LOVED LOVED KOTOR. The only MMO I've ever played is Star Wars: Galaxies.

Finally, a decent Star Wars MMO?

Pants... getting tighter...

[DanJW]

Also, from here, about eight minutes in:

To me, this is something that could only possibly be a selling point in the games industry. They are advertising the fact that, after "dozens of hours" of playing, you can make a irreversible decision that might negatively affect your enjoyment if the story. As in, if ever want to do a second playthrough down a different path, you'll have to start a new character from scratch. ("Isn't it great? You can spend huge amounts of time developing your character and progressing through the game, only to make the wrong choice at a critical moment and regret it for the rest of the game! This is what makes your choices meaningful!")

I've been hanging out on the Bioware forums again recently, and from what Lead Writer David Gaider says, Bioware don't do negative affects for decisions.

That is, if you make a choice in good faith, you will never be punished for it. It's a design philosophy they adhere to. There may be different outcomes, but they are different stories rather than good or bad versions of the same thing.

So your concern is unfounded

Personally I think it's great. We've talked here on thumbs before about how difficult it is to stop people from metagaming, what with quicksaves and stuff. This is finally an answer (AN answer not THE answer) to that.