Metal Gear Solid 4 - Guns of the Saucer Men From Mars

[Thyroid]

Oh Kroms you do need to lighten up when it comes to these industry figures.

Yeah, I know. Ego, large or not, doesn't really affect me. I just dislike that attitude that says "Even though I co-directed MGS4, I'm going to include my name only in the opening credits, and then, at the end credits, say 'directed by me' and later, co-directed by the other guy."

[Thrik]

I'm surprised you even notice stuff like that to be honest. Is it really a big deal? I mean this stuff goes right back to Ron Gilbert being on the box of MI1, I don't think anyone's reading into it too much. :~

Hell I'm sure Tim Schafer isn't as responsible for how his games turned out as we'd probably imagine, but there his name is on the box all by itself. It's just how most industries work, particularly film.

[Thyroid]

I'm usually okay with Schafer and Ron Gilbert because neither of them make ridiculous claims. As opposed to Molyneux, or David Cage comparing himself to Orson Welles.

But you're right, and even if it doesn't stop bothering me, I'll at least try and stop bringing it up. Cheers, Thrik.

[Cigol]

EDIT; ...I'm half asleep. I've just sat through MGS4's cutscenes.

[Garple]

It's just how most industries work, particularly film.

Yeah, it really gets to me that Tyler Perry puts his name in the title of all his stupid bullshit.

[ThunderPeel2001]

I'm usually okay with Schafer and Ron Gilbert because neither of them make ridiculous claims. As opposed to Molyneux, or David Cage comparing himself to Orson Welles.

But you're right, and even if it doesn't stop bothering me, I'll at least try and stop bringing it up. Cheers, Thrik.

It's worth noting that Kojima productions got serious death threats when Hideo said he wasn't going to be directing MGS4. The fact that his name is featured prominently might be a reaction to that.

"The staff heard about this and got very nervous," said Kojima. "We talk today as if it was a joke, but at the time, it was not a joke at all. It was serious."

[syntheticgerbil]

Alright, so finally got to this and man I kind of hate this game in so many ways. It's to the point where I feel a bit cheated after spending so much time with previous Metal Gear games. This will be spoiler ridden, so I'll try my best to hide essential points.

I know the gaming public says the abundance of cutscenes that have too many pauses and boring parts is the biggest problem, but in a way, it's almost the least of the game's problems. The content of many of the cutscenes alone is much more concerning.

My biggest issue is just the rampant and ridiculous sexism in this game that is so out of place when lined up with the previous games. Now that the term "male gaze" has been thrown about all year, I don't think I've ever seen so many out of place instances in one game. Yeah I know you find Meryl in her underwear if you want in MGS1 and you track her down by watching how her hips move, but that's all par for the course for me. It wasn't played up as more than what a typical dude like Solid Snake would be thinking (in my eyes I suppose), nor was it lingering. I'd say the same with the sexy lady posters and magazines that appear throughout the series, which is part of soldier culture anyway (it's usually more easter egg type anyway with non-sexy ladies when viewing). The most so far that I have played approaching the raunchiness of MGS4 is in the Acid series where you could unlock videos of Japanese models posing, which I found despicable but didn't ruin too much of an otherwise great game series as it was all optional hidden stuff.

Did MGS2 have anything like this? I can't specifically remember. MGS3 had a bunch of stuff with Eva and using FPV on her boobs, but to me that made perfect sense because it was within the motives of her character to seduce, plus she ended up genuinely liking Big Boss so her attitude somewhat changed. Sniper Wolf was similarly in character as well in my opinion. Then there is the contrast that has always been played up with Otacon and his ease of falling in love with the first sexy woman who pays him any attention (this is still played up in MGS4, which is cool) versus how Snake/Big Boss doesn't focus on women attempting to seduce him, at least not without a fight.

There have always female characters in MGS, but they have had a good variety in how they are portrayed. In MGS4, everyone except for Meryl

and again Eva, as she is still within her character,

are portrayed as eye candy for no reason. The camera shots looking straight up butts and peering down cleavage are just overwhelming. Why does Mei Ling have scenes like this?

Why is Johnny Sasaki, who we are supposed to like, suddenly uncharacteristically trying to grab Mei Ling's ass in front of Meryl in one cutscene? Sexual harassment played up for hilarity? I don't find that hilarious, and why does Meryl just not care much? I hate that scene so much.

Naomi suddenly has her breasts completely out when she used to be protrayed as more reserved. How they even stay in her shirt make no sense. Also, why is she hanging out with a young girl with her tits out? I think if I had a teacher, aunt, or mother hanging out with me as a child with her boobs out, I'd feel embarrassed and confused.

At a major point within the game where Naomi is revealed to have betrayed Otacon and Snake, Otacon has the Mk. II spying on her. Instead of paying attention to what anyone is saying, he's trying to peek up Naomi's skirt. How is that appropriate or even within context of the situation at hand?

It all just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Then the Beauties. First, the skin tight uniforms where you can see almost everything, enough said. Second, the cameras are all over their intimate bits constantly the second they are out of their shell. Third, there's easter eggs with each of them that involve tons of orgasming sounds and super provocative posing for the camera. Okay the latter part is something that's optional, even though I don't like that it exists, but twice I triggered orgasm land on accident as you get to them by simply running away.

The icing on the cake is that after you "cleanse" these women by shooting them dead as they act strange and write about in front of you, you are treated to the most awful bed time stories about murder, cannibalism, and infant killing that I think are supposed to provoke our pity or say something about PTSD. Ultimately they are just disgusting over the top tales that have never once been in a Metal Gear game.

The fact that this all has happened to the sex objects just put in front of us just adds another layer of disgust. I dreaded getting to all of those bosses every single time. Every time I beat one I took a break from playing. I don't think I've ever played something so embarrassing in front of my girlfriend. Just fuck.

Gameplay is just a mess of ideas without any kind of flow. I don't even know where to begin. The first two acts involve minor amounts of the sneaking and tranqing I love Metal Gear for, while the rest is of the time is spent taking out infinite spawning enemies to the point of extreme annoyance. Gun shots play non stop and there's a bunch of rebel soldiers you are supposed to help that you can't even identify as rebels half the time. If you disguise as a rebel soldier but get close enough to a PMC, an alert status instantly plays and suddenly tons of reinforcements are sent after you and you die as they all gang up on you. That doesn't even make any fucking sense if I'm supposed to be just another one of the 12 dudes standing around attacking them.

Act 3 has a similar disguise part that also makes no sense yet on the flip side it is extremely easy. Even though there's a curfew enacted where you can be terminated on site, if you just don't look like Snake, somehow no guards care you are walking around at night.

There's an on-the-rails biking part later in the act taken straight from MGS3, but I didn't really have to do anything to finish. There weren't any pauses to successfully aim or taking off time to pick off following enemies from behind like in MGS3, just stuff happening every few seconds in cutscene form. Before I knew it, it was all over and the next cutscene played out. Huh?

Stupid tiny bots in the hundreds exist in Act 4 that involve no sneaking strategy whatsoever. Whatever.

I guess these complaints can seem like nitpicks, but that is the majority of the gameplay right there.

I don't know if there's anything else that I'm mad at the game about. There are major parts I really do enjoy, but they are just taken from games before, not improved upon. The only new thing that was awesome was Octocamo. The more open areas in Act 2 that had patrolling guards as well as the tracking section was fun, but straight out of MGS3.

The Liquid fight was awesome, but again recycled. I suppose the major highlight in terms of gameplay was simply controlling a Metal Gear for once, and boy was it spectacular.

There was a lot of storyline parts that stuck out and I enjoyed, especially all of the trouble with Snake's aging

and Big Boss' reappearance at the end (even though that scene dragged).

Plus Drebin and his monkey were great every time they appeared. I liked the part Sunny's played a lot and Raiden was

more bearable and interesting this time with the light storyline between Rose and his son.

The wedding and Meryl romance could have been less dumb if Johnny wasn't a creepo in that one briefing and didn't take place outside of a plane, but I otherwise welcomed it.

I just really wish the bad parts weren't *so* bad this time.

Just ugh. Also OCD commands me to slog through 7 more playthroughs for trophies. I'm guessing I'll stretch that out the rest of the year.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Hmm. Troubling news indeed. I'm still working my way through Peacewalker before I jump into this one, but I don't like what you're saying (I haven't read your entire post for fear of spoilers).

[Salacious Snake]

My biggest issue is just the major and ridiculous sexism in this game that is so out of place and out of sync with the previous games that it is just embarrassing and disgusting.

Having recently finished Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake, a bit of dialog from the closing scene comes to mind in relation to this observation:

Holly: Ugh... that uniform was too tight in
 the chest... Ahh, I feel much better
 now.

 Here, I stole this gun from the
 enemy. You can have it.

Snake: Yeah... I can see how it'd be hard
 for a woman to use. Thanks.

I was pretty surprised by that. I think there were some other questionable comments earlier in the game.

[syntheticgerbil]

I don't remember that quote at all. Good point. Konami's localizers would have done that more recently and they could have just as well rewritten it if it were in the original Japanese dialogue like that.

It's still not as over the top bothersome to me as much as Metal Gear Solid 4 is.

Also Thunderpeel, is this to mean Peacewalker is a breath of fresh air? I know there's the whole 16 year old girl thing in her underwear at the beginning but how much worse does it get?

[manny_c44]

Peacewalker is like the opposite of MGS4: there is lots of sneaking gameplay, the cutscenes are hand drawn and awesome, there is base management, there is no wierd vibe as you described above (which I also noticed, I just stopped playing MGS4 because it was too gross, over-the-top and pointless).

[ThunderPeel2001]

Peacewalker seems good to me!

[syntheticgerbil]

Phew! Because I'm still looking forward to playing Peacewalker co-op with a good pal of mine

[Thrik]

You big girl's blouses. You need to man up and stop bitching about this series' casual sexism.

[I_smell]

I don't know what this thread's doing up so recent, but jus wanted to say I laughed at the name.

Hell I'm sure Tim Schafer isn't as responsible for how his games turned out as we'd probably imagine, but there his name is on the box all by itself. It's just how most industries work, particularly film.

In a double-interview with Double Fine on Polygon.com recently, Tim said he didn't like being the big name of Double Fine and being on the box, so he's really happy with how all the Amnesia Fortnight stuff has put the rest of DF in the spotlight.

But I guess when you wrote that post, this hadn't happened yet.

[ThunderPeel2001]

You big girl's blouses. You need to man up and stop bitching about this series' casual sexism.

I don't think the series is really all that sexist. MG2 was probably very poorly translated, but who knows...

MGS3 is by far the most "sexist" MGS I've played, but then it's also a huge nod to 60s Bond, which is exactly how those movies were... It seemed very knowing, and very tongue-in-cheek to me.

(Slightly related: In MGS2 you get to control a nude MAN! The gall of Hideo Kojima! Doesn't he know that nude men make us male gamers feel uncomfortable? -- Actually I thought it was a hilarious moment in the game and I'm amazed that anyone felt uncomfortable because of it! Yet every time you see the game mentioned (apart from here) you see someone complain about how "gay" it was. Ha! Also, sometimes the men are sexualised, too, which is a refreshing change for Video games.)

[Thrik]

When you think about it, a lot of Japanese games are sexist. Just look at the state of Bayonetta, and even Mario is pushing it a bit with the recurring theme for the past 25 years being rescuing a hapless, blonde bimbo. It's probably fair to say that as a rule of thumb Japanese game developers are intolerant dudes who love to generalise.

[Thrik]

I agree with TP's point. I don't think MGS is sexist as such, I think it's more a case of Kojima loving to fuck with people. There's plenty of stuff in there to make guys feel uncomfortable too; for every 'Eva has her cleavage sticking out' there's a 'villain turns out to be gay and literally grabs the balls of the main character'. It's all fun and games, really.

[syntheticgerbil]

(Slightly related: In MGS2 you get to control a nude MAN! The gall of Hideo Kojima! Doesn't he know that nude men make us male gamers feel uncomfortable? -- Actually I thought it was a hilarious moment in the game and I'm amazed that anyone felt uncomfortable because of it! Yet every time you see the game mentioned (apart from here) you see someone complain about how "gay" it was. Ha! Also, sometimes the men are sexualised, too, which is a refreshing change for Video games.)

Haha I've seen that opinion around too, but I think the Raiden nude part was one of the most defining moments of the game. The VR Mission where you dash around nude again is even better.

I guess that's part of the thing, in general Metal Gear games seem very balanced in terms of the characters on their stage, but I guess Metal Gear Solid 4 didn't do that for me.

But on that point Thrik, as I said, I don't think Eva was a problem, as Thunderpeel said, she was very much within the theme of the game. The big problem with MGS4 is the Beauties are prominent parts of the game that are completely hollow and useless. They make no absolutely no driving impact within the storyline whatsoever nor do they expose any major plot points of the series as a whole. They aren't even characters as there's no personality you can even put your finger on. It's just women in wet skin tight shoots babbling about nothing in particular while the camera is pointed up their crotch.

I don't know if just wrapping it up in the package of this being a Japanese game is easy enough. In my mind, no game in the series has been this gross and over the top as a main element of the game until MGS4.

[jeremywc]

I agree with TP's point. I don't think MGS is sexist as such, I think it's more a case of Kojima loving to fuck with people. There's plenty of stuff in there to make guys feel uncomfortable too; for every 'Eva has her cleavage sticking out' there's a 'villain turns out to be gay and literally grabs the balls of the main character'. It's all fun and games, really.

Haven't played the game, but that sounds another example of weird sexism to me. It's promoting this idea that you need to avoid out gay guys because all they want to do is grab your balls.

[Thrik]

Haven't played the game, but that sounds another example of weird sexism to me. It's promoting this idea that you need to avoid out gay guys because all they want to do is grab your balls.

It doesn't quite play out like that. The fact that he's gay is made known earlier and you basically disguise yourself as his lover to get around the base. Unfortunately you bump into him and after a quick fondle he realises what's up.

I wouldn't say any kind of statement was being made nor was there any huge deal made about it, it's just one of many slightly awkward things that happen in the MGS games. As I say, I think Kojima just enjoys weirding people out and making them uncomfortable, which is kind of odd but I guess it adds to whatever it is that makes MGS so enduringly well-loved — and not just by guys.

[syntheticgerbil]

That and the ball grabber, Volgin who is actually bisexual, is a violent dude to both women and men in terms of his sexual desires and this is noted within context of the story. He's the second bisexual villian after Vamp, which again is another uncommon thing Hideo Kojima just inserts.

Actually I think Volgin is a good example of what changed in MGS4 if I contrast him to Johnny.

Johnny has traditionally been played up every game as doofy incompetent dude with diarrhea all the way up until

he removes his mask and saves Meryl and comically becomes some kind of pretty boy.

Suddenly Act 5's briefing begins and there's two instances where he's trying to grab Mei Ling's butt even though the woman he's about to propose to is right next to him. Why's he suddenly slimy for this brief moment? I guess the MGS4 team thought it was hilarious, but it seems to either exist as a poorly executed joke scene with no sense of continuity within character or simply a poorly handled scenario with the end goal of having a bent over camera shot so we could check out the finely sculpted behind of next gen Mei Ling. If that latter had to be the case, I would feel much better had they just done a Mei Ling ass shot without a dude we are supposed to like reaching out for it. I mean to be fair here, I was treated to a few ridiculous ass shots of Snake throughout main cutscenes.

Volgin is portrayed as an angry, power driven sadist in MGS3 who takes pleasure in sleeping with Sokolov's wife

(Who is Eva)

as well as shocking her at the same time. Multiple instances of Volgin acting out of control really doesn't show crotch grabbing as either sexist or out of character. None of this plays out with camera views right up Raikov/Snake's crotch or really comically for that matter. In fact upon rewatching it just now, it's a pretty fucking frightening scene which led up to one of the tensest cutscenes I've ever seen in a MGS game.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Volgin is portrayed as an angry, power driven sadist in MGS3 who takes pleasure in sleeping with Sokolov's wife

(Who is Eva)

Eh, what now?

Eva pretended to be Tatyana... Sokolov's lover. She was never his wife, was she...?

[Thrik]

She was considered by Volgon, Ocelot, etc to be his wife— they say as such in the helicopter cutscenes where she's introduced.

It's been a while so I can't remember if it was clarified whether she actually was his wife or simply took on the role.

[ThunderPeel2001]

She was considered by Volgon, Ocelot, etc to be his wife— they say as such in the helicopter cutscenes where she's introduced.

Nope: