360 in HD

[ThunderPeel2001]

Has anyone experienced this yet? I have no idea how popular HD TVs are, so everyone might already be old hands at this. I just moved into a new flat with a nice 42" HD TV. Last night we hooked up the XBox to see what it looked like.

With a SCART lead it was pretty damned ugly... no HD signal, but using a VGA we got it running looking beautiful at 1366x768... Except for one thing: The slow down.

What's going on?

Even XBox animated logo suffered from slow down! ? The "blades" look crystal clear, but they're a little less smooth than before. Running Mass Effect was surprising: There was considerable slowdown... playable, sure, but definitely jerkier with lots of tearing.

What's the point in touting "HD" if the machine itself can't handle it properly?

I feel pretty disappointed with my first experience of it.

We weren't even running 1080!

Does anyone have any experience of this? Can you offer any tips or tricks you might know? How do you feel about it? Is my XBox broken? What's a good "trade off" resolution? Is that the solution... even though it won't be native?

Confused

[Roderick]

That's disturbing to hear... I'm planning on buying an HD setup with the 360 in a few weeks, but if the machine can't even do 720 right, how can I expect it to run 1080 properly?

[Noyb]

I haven't owned an HD-tv yet. Aside from a few isolated instances (tiny, blurry text in Dead Rising, difficulty seeing camouflaged enemies in Halo 3), it hasn't really affected my gameplay, although I get the same feeling as when I have an inferior PC graphics card: a bitterness at not being able to see the game as it's meant to be seen and at having to download hi-res textures that my hardware is incapable of displaying well.

As for your problem, you might want to look into the tv's refresh rate? Maybe some reviews of that model to see if any gamers noted the same issues?

[n0wak]

I joined this HD-ERA three weeks ago (Sharp Aquos) and I've been nothing but stunned by it. No problems. No slowdown. Mass Effect ran just as shitty as before, nothing new there. But Call of Duty 4 runs fine and looks great for me. So it's not the XBox. It works fine. It's likely your TV's refresh rate. Are you unscaling? Does it have a "gamer mode"? What model? etc.

(PS. I'm connected via component cables)

[vimes]

On a related note, my roomates and I got a hold of a 720p LCD TV and I'm considering buying an Xbox 360. Which model should I get Arcade, Core or Premium ? Any cheap online store for the US ? Should I get it new, refurbished or second hand? I'm quite lost ... except the size of the HD, I don't really get what's the difference between the offers.

[Roderick]

Seeing as though we're all going to go HD in a matter of time, perhaps it's a good idea to post useful information here?

The set I'm considering is 37" Hitachi which features 1080 Full HD and is quite reasonably priced at 999 Euros. For the life of me I couldn't find anything on it anywhere on the internet, neither positive nor negative, so I gather it's a decent machine that doesn't do anything wrong.

So far I haven't seen anything sporting 1080p for anywhere near that price though, so there's a little alarmbell going off constantly proclaiming that there must be something wrong with the thing.

[vimes]

We got a refurbished VIZIO VX32L HDTV for 512,25$ on eBay... it's apparently a pretty decent choice; in fact the only one that would fit our budget. It should arrive tomorrow.

EDIT : and it was a pain in the ass to find a tv with a tuner... isn't it weird ?

[Roderick]

Good choice, it seems. At 32" and smaller it becomes increasingly irrelevant to take Full HD, unless you're literally with your nose on the screen. There's a nice graph somewhere showing the viewing distince you should have to take maximum advantage of your resolution and screen size.

Are second-hand tv's reliable, by the way? No guarantees, after all. In fact, I thought the market for second hand was as good as dead (at least, for non-HD sets anyway).

[vimes]

Good choice, it seems. At 32" and smaller it becomes increasingly irrelevant to take Full HD,

PLus from HDTV Ready ( 720p,1080i) to Full HD (1080p), there's a hug gap in terms of price ... and most Xbox 360 games are 1080i or 720p (CoD4 is one example)

Are second-hand tv's reliable, by the way? No guarantees, after all. In fact, I thought the market for second hand was as good as dead (at least, for non-HD sets anyway).

Not a second-hand TV, a refurbished one (sent back to the constructor, tested for quality test then put in box again) and you get a 90 days guarantee that you can extend to a 1 year guarantee for 60$ more.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Shouldn't a "Full HD" TV simply upscale a 1080i input to 1080p automatically? There's no extra information, afterall, it's just the difference between interlaced and progressive, right?

I joined this HD-ERA three weeks ago (Sharp Aquos) and I've been nothing but stunned by it. No problems. No slowdown. Mass Effect ran just as shitty as before, nothing new there. But Call of Duty 4 runs fine and looks great for me. So it's not the XBox. It works fine. It's likely your TV's refresh rate. Are you unscaling? Does it have a "gamer mode"? What model? etc.

This is good to hear! The strange thing is, though, is that I'm sure Mass Effect ran smoother when I turned the grain off. Hmm, no matter, it's great to hear that you're not experiencing any slow down!

What were you outputting? 720 or 1080? I read on Wikipedia that only certain models have HDMI ability... But I don't understand if it means that they come with an extra output or just that you can buy a special XBox 360 HDMI cable and it will work.

Using VGA there's no sound output, so I really need to hook up my surround sound via an optical lead. Do HDMI and Component transfer sound?

The TV I'm using is a 42" LCD LG 42PC55 apparently.

[brkl]

HDMI has sound, Component does not. I think older 360s did not have a HDMI port at all.

[n0wak]

Yeah, I use component for the video and the old RCA for the audio until I get a proper sound setup. I want to use HDMI as my TV has three HDMI inputs, but as said above, older XBox 360s don't have HDMI inputs.

This was actually one of the selling points of the XBox 360 Elite but I think new regular models come with it now too, though you have to research a bit to find out which is which (it doesn't say on the box). WAY TO CONFUSE THINGS MICROSOFT. I love multiple SKUs!

What were you outputting? 720 or 1080?

It depends on the game, really. The dashboard does go 1080p though, I think. It's really hard to tell sometimes.

vimes: you really should go Premium. It's the best bargain (and I think core is being phased out?) and the hard-drive is really needed (you don't want to buy it later since it's such a rip-off price). I'd be wary of getting refurbished systems though... 360s aren't known for their reliability

[Nachimir]

So far I haven't seen anything sporting 1080p for anywhere near that price though, so there's a little alarmbell going off constantly proclaiming that there must be something wrong with the thing.

Go to a store and compare it with other panels of the same size; year on year there's a marked difference in quality. I was looking at two Samsung 37 inch panels side by side last week, both 720p, one was £450 and the other £600. The cheaper had awful colour compared to the more expensive one and couldn't handle any fast camera pans without making a shitload of artefacts.

My housemate runs a 360 on a HDTV at 720p. The only thing he's noticed any slowdown with was Oblivion, many other games have been fine.

[toblix]

If I were to buy a new HDTV I'd not make the mistakes of:

1. ...primarily focusing on 1080p. The resolution is maybe one of the least important factors in image quality. If you're only buying a 37"-40" television, I'd go with the higher-end 720p sets.
   
2. ...not buying a television based on viewing it in a store. Electronics stores are horribly well-lit environments most likely very different from where the TV'll end up. I also expect the sellers to adjust the sets according to commision rather than spending some time finding the best image settings for each.
   
3. ...not spending a shitload of time adjusting the picture after purchasing it. I'd say buying the television is one half of the job, image adjustments being the other. I've never heard of a LCD or plasma TV that has even half-good factory settings.
   
4. Profit!

[Roderick]

Based on what I've read and the distance I'll be viewing at, I'm better off with 1080, but you're right in essence. You're also very right, Toblix, about other settings mattering equally or more; like contrast, greyscale range, hertz, blahblah. The tough thing is, those things are rarely specified and I'm by no means knowledgeable enough to discover them adequately in the store.

I need a tv maven.

Do make an argument, by the way, why in those range of inches you'd rather go for a 720 setup?

Nachimir; that would be ideal if the store were to provide such setups, but the demo video they run on all tv's at the local chain is horribly encoded and 720i only, making all the tv's look like oversaturated shit. Perhaps I should visit a better store to find out which tv really kicks most ass.

[Thrik]

Anyone got/seen a Viera (plasma)? A review of the more recent models said they have superb black levels, which the LCD we have in this house certainly does not (a problem with most LCD televisions it seems, and even the shit backlight adjustment doesn't help much).

If you're getting general slowdown everywhere ThunderPeel2001 it sounds more like you have a hardware set-up issue. Various audio/visual set-ups get what I only know as display lag, where the display isn't properly synced for some reason or other and is constantly fucked with to try and keep up.

This could give the illusion of a bad frame rate I guess, as frames would be skipped. I'd have a good fiddle and Google to see if you can get to the bottom of it. If anything, it should be smoother as the 360 officially outputs at 60 frames per second as far as I'm aware, and this is a standard all games strive for.

As for the 1080i/1080p thing, yeah, a proper full HD television should definitely be capable of doing that. Although to correct you, 1080p does actually have twice the information of 1080i as 1080i takes out half the lines of each frame (every other line of each frame is gone, but it alternates which ones it takes out on a frame-by-frame basis). As long as it's moving this shouldn't be perceptible, and on a HD television there're loads of lines so it's even less perceptible.

[brkl]

The cheaper had awful colour compared to the more expensive one and couldn't handle any fast camera pans without making a shitload of artefacts.

Eh, artefacts on fast camera pans? Sounds like an encoding problem and not one to do with the actual TV.

[toblix]

Do make an argument, by the way, why in those range of inches you'd rather go for a 720 setup?

Well, I was really thinking about televisions 42" and down, and only because from what I've seen and heard, there's no perceptible difference between the two resolutions on televisions that "small". Of course, that's based on two assumptions I didn't mention:

1. This is of course dependent on viewing distance. I was basing my comment on the viewing distance I have here and will have in my apartment.
   
2. If you're going to use the screen as a computer monitor, web surfing, whatever, you'll appreciate a higher resolution more.

Also, the 42 inches isn't a magical exact dimension, just one I pulled out of my ass, sort of.

Also, I'd argue that even if you do see a difference between the two resolutions on a given screen size at a given distance, you should still seriously consider image quality a hell of a lot more as long as the lower resolution isn't annoying in any way.

Eh, artefacts on fast camera pans? Sounds like an encoding problem and not one to do with the actual TV.

Could be just poor motion enhancement.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Hurrah! I'm pleased to announce that changing the output resolution from x768 to x1080 fixed all the problems. No more slow down! Although it is a bit blurrier than it was before, it still looks nice.

Thanks for the attempts at dianosing the problem... something along the line didn't like the output resolution. No idea why. Oddly enough I tried outputting x720 and the TV flat out refused to take it. Very strange.

Mass Effect still has some tearing that I don't recall seeing in SD, but it felt much smoother... I think!

Mine is an older 360 so no HDMI port According to Wikipedia all 360s made after August 2007 come with it as standard now. Ah well. You can tell by the line number or something, which is visible without opening the box, I believe.

If you're going to buy a new TV set, listen to Toblix: Don't judge in the store, do some research and calibrate it when you get it home! It makes a HUGE difference.

If I were buy a TV there's only one way I'd go: Pioneer Kuro. Leaves all others in its wake. Black levels are *amazing* apparently.

Thrik: I see what you mean, but I meant an in picture detail... 1080i is just another way of showing 1080p, right? In terms of bandwidth per milisecond or whatever, 1080p is double 1080i, but there's no extra picture detail?

[vimes]

1080i is just another way of showing 1080p, right?

1080i is another way of showing 720p if I'm not mistaken.

[Roderick]

Vimes; that's not right. 720p shows 720 horizontal lines progressively (30 fps), 1080i shows 1080 horizontal lines interlaces (60 fps).

Toblix; thanks. Though it is VERY difficult to judge anything in the stores, since their contrast is usually cranked all the way up, there's little information on anything but the resolution and contrast ratio (which is hugely tampered with because of weird double standard tests), and you can't expect stores to appreciate youwatching your own stuff and carefully examining all tv's. Of course you should do internet research, but with all the tv's coming out it's often difficult to find anything, and it still doesn't show you the true picture quality.

And if you have to wait until you've already bought it and calibrated the tv... well, then you've already bought it, haven't you?

[toblix]

And if you have to wait until you've already bought it and calibrated the tv... well, then you've already bought it, haven't you?

Well, you could always just return it if you're not satisfied, if the store or your country's consumer laws allows it.

[Nachimir]

Nachimir; that would be ideal if the store were to provide such setups, but the demo video they run on all tv's at the local chain is horribly encoded and 720i only, making all the tv's look like oversaturated shit. Perhaps I should visit a better store to find out which tv really kicks most ass.

Alas :-(

The screens where I looked were all showing a football (soccer) match, it seemed to be an okay thing to compare across panels because of all the movement.

That appears to be some shit hot awesome advice from Toblix, BTW.

If you want HDTV in some kind of perspective, there's a visual comparison of screen sizes here.

What you say above about frame rates isn't particularly accurate - there are 1080p setups that go up to 60 frames, i and p are simply about the way the image is processed rather than frame rate (Also, most image sources won't supply 60FPS - DVD will be 24 for instance). 1080p will technically give a better image than 1080i, as the interlacing on 1080i can apparently generate artefacts.

[miffy495]

Am I the only one here who runs their HD gaming system through a computer monitor? I've got a 3-ish year old Dell 24 inch widescreen (native 1920x1200) monitor which I've been using for my 360 any time I'm playing something single player. The size would be a bit of an issue if it weren't a computer monitor and thus something you're usually really close to anyway. My bed is about 4 feet from the monitor, I swivel it so I can see the image, and I'm off to enjoy EDF, Crackdown, or whatever. Rock Band I just set the drums or guitar up a bit beside my bed and it's perfect. Aside from a little bit of letterboxing (16x9 things on a 16x10 screen. Whatever...) I have no worries whatsoever. When I'm playing multi, I'll cart the box out to the main room and hook it up to the larger SD screen. I love this setup. If I was suddenly struck with the urge to play Assassin's Creed in the middle of a post, I'd simply turn on the 360, cycle through 3 other inputs (monitor has 5) and play. Nothing like having your work desk also be your primary game center for all things geeky.

[n0wak]

Here's that chart that someone mentioned about resolution vs tv distance/size

http://www.carltonbale.com/2006/11/1080p-does-matter/

(Mine's 46 inch and I'm about 6-7 feet away, so I'm right near that supposed sweet spot)