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Wrestlevania

Interactive cruelty

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With the artificial censorship of Manhunt 2 [PSP] having been hacked out within hours of release, we're now able to see just what all the fuss is about.

...and, as much as it pains me to do so, I'm inclined to agree on the side of censorship. This is plain cruel for the most part and serves as no valuable "improvement" on whatever Rockstar were trying to say with the original Manhunt. Having seen this now, I'm of the firm opinion that no sequel to Manhunt ever need have been produced--it serves no purpose except to generate buzz about Rockstar it would seem.

What do you lot think; genuine message and valuable interactive experience or bitterly cynical exercise in spin and cash generation?

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Do that many adults actually want to play these kind of games anyway?

I have always thought that games like Manhunt 2 are targeted to teens who think playing the most violent games or watching the goriest films somehow makes them really cool. Those who spend hours explaining how they watched Saw like, at least, ten times yesterday and then tried to kill as many hookers as possible in GTA, which is a cool game cause you can kill all kinds of stuff various ways, but the missions are like total crap.

Well, I guess adults can truly enjoy Manhunt 2 too, but it's clearly not for me. The violence seems very over the top and pointless, and I kind of agree with the rating board's decision.

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I'm having difficulties separating the game from my tastes. Though I'm not squeamish about anything like this, I hate it and it's not for me.

How far it's acceptable to go in simulating this kind of stuff? I have no idea.

In saying I agree with the censors, I feel like I'd merely be rationalising my preferences. I'd rather not do that, because I have a bunch of huge questions about effects of media content, ie:

Why do we censor anything at all?

How would media content harm people if we didn't?

How would/does seeing sex and violence harm kids?

Why are some adults able to deal with "upsetting images" on the news and others unable?

The questions tempt simple answers, but that won't do. I'm not asking these from some anti-censorship agenda, it's just that I've never, ever seen anyone give credible answers, or pretty much anyone try to.

I've never found the right people to ask about this stuff, and I suspect that's because noone has the answers yet. The palava around Manhunt and Manhunt 2 doesn't provide any, nor, it seems, do any of the people talking about it.

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I haven't played Manhunt 2 so I can not say but isn't putting together a video of all the kills without any of the context, no matter how loose it might be, kind of missing the point. I could put together a video of all the murders from "Man Bites Dog" and people would think it's the worst movie ever -- completely missing the whole point of the film. Now, I'm not saying that Manhunt 2 is on that level of complexity (probably not even CLOSE) but context is everything.

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I haven't played Manhunt 2 so I can not say but isn't putting together a video of all the kills without any of the context, no matter how loose it might be, kind of missing the point. I could put together a video of all the murders from "Man Bites Dog" and people would think it's the worst movie ever -- completely missing the whole point of the film. Now, I'm not saying that Manhunt 2 is on that level of complexity (probably not even CLOSE) but context is everything.

The context is this: if you approach any random NPC in a stealthy manner, you'll have the opportunity to kill them in a contextual way--usually dictated by the weapon you're currently holding. Occasionally, you'll be able to use the environment, such as beating that one man to death with the top off the ceramic toilet cistern.

But, to be clear, these are all just your common-or-garden level wandering NPCs. There's nothing special about any of them--you're just given the opportunity to dispatch each one in a particularly over-the-top manner again and again and again and again and...

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context is everything.

I agree - I think it influences how people understand things and the effect (if any) it might have on them.

I'd really like to see any pro- or anti-censorship people talking about that, but they don't.

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To be fair, censorship is usually based on the idea that there are some things that are wrong regardless of context (and they should therefore be censored). I don't agree with that, but ignoring context is sort of the point with censorship.

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As I said months ago, this is a very tricky issue. Having seen that reel now (after a few minutes I lost interest in seeing the rest; it's probably all the same), it's pretty obvious that it's trash, plain and simple. It's just an ultraviolent power-fantasy; an indulgence in sadism. The big question is, should it be censored? My liberal ideal informs me that everyone can do whatever the hell they want as long as nobody gets hurt; that something like this can easily be art (bad art, obviously) and that as long as there's regulation and protection of the impressionable youth, there's little wrong with unleashing cynical trash like this on the public.

But on the other hand, there is a keen sense that you are what you eat. How can you expect a culture and the people in it to become beautiful when they are fed garbage like this? Liberal principles are well and all, but the greater good might be restricting this stuff. The thing is, I just have no idea which side of the argument is the better one. Discreet censorship might not be a bad thing, as long as the balance tilts heavily in the favour of liberal ideas. And as ever, it's the conflict within this that keeps a society dynamic and healthy.

[ADDED] You know what? I think I'm actually completely OK with Manhunt being censored. The only reason I wouldn't be is out of principle. But I'll reserve my ammo for a game or expression that deserves fighting for. Principles are tedious anyway and they hinder this stuation in that they try to create a simple model out of life where none is possible. The solution is much simpler: Manhunt 2 I don't give a hoot about and I think it's a horrid game, so I don't care it being censored -or I even applaud it. As soon as something that I do care about is threatened, I'll jump on the barricades again. Censorship is not a bad thing if it filters out the meaningless ugliness in the world.

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I'll just echo most everyone else here and say that while I'm still not convinced censorship is a good thing, this time it's pretty fucking close. On the one hand it's good, in a way, that this is what it takes to spark debate, and not a work of art with any real value, censored for political or other reasons.

On the other hand, I feel the entire principle of free speech is sullied by having to defend this. By the way, this isn't written based on the montage alone, since taking it out of context like that is in many ways pointless. But no matter what context you put these sequences in there's no way this has any substance in and of itself worth arguing for, and I'm disappointed by Rockstar for using their name on this trash, having enjoyed the GTA games so much. It's obvious a lot of people have been hard at work making this game, and I wonder what they're all thinking. I wonder what kind of mood or spirit is prevalent in the offices of people animating the finishing moves, texturing the bloody bashed neck stumps, programming the blood spray effects and recording the gurgling sounds of all these sequences. It must be exhausting.

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After watching that short video clip I can't say I was impressed. Not because it was disgusting, because it seems it's just blood splatters to me and nothing really else, but because it seems there is nothing else but the senseless killing.

If one of the features of the game is being able to walk up to random NPCs and bludgeon them to death with an assortment of tools then that doesn't make for a fun game in my opinion.

That being said, censorship is bad in most cases but echoing what's being said in this thread, I believe that in this game it is a good thing. There is nothing extra gained from watching those scenes except to show people how the murder actually occurred in quite graphic detail. That is something that can leave an impression on people, especially the young.

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That being said, censorship is bad in most cases but echoing what's being said in this thread, I believe that in this game it is a good thing. There is nothing extra gained from watching those scenes except to show people how the murder actually occurred in quite graphic detail. That is something that can leave an impression on people, especially the young.

But the point is that young people shouldn't be playing this in the first place. You can debate the effectiveness of the ESRB ratings and how easy it is for kids to get at these games, but that's another argument altogether. Fact is, it's not a game that's designed for those impressionable minors. Hell, I'd be more concerned if the scenes didn't leave an impression. Would you rather sterilize everything to the point of dullness? A game like Medal of Honor, with its no blood, no gore depiction of a bloody, gory scene (Normandy) is equally offensive to me.

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No I wouldn't censor MoH, but that's where the effects add to the experience of the game and show, or at least attempt to, how it was to be in that event. From what I saw in that video clip, the murder scenes are merely showing how to kill the person and not adding to the depth of the game.

The main question I would ask is does the gore in Manhunt add to the depth of the game? Does it make it more enjoyable to choke a person to death using a plastic bag when you see his blood splatter around the room? In my opinion it doesn't. Whereas in MoH or in Company of Heroes (the opening scene at least) where the blood and gore show what it was like to be in the scene portrayed, in that situation it adds to the depth of the game and the immersion it provides for players.

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I'm dead inside.

This game must be boring as hell. Doing the same thing over and over and over again. The enormous amount of these "gruesome" killings degrades their "magic".

I think censorship is simply wrong. Freedom of expression also means allowing things you don't agree on, or don't like

ESRB/PEGI/... ratings are there for parental guidance. Not as something to be enforced. If stores want to use them to limit sales to minors then its their right to do so (well, actually it's age discrimination, but that ok for minors since only their parents can object to that stuff). But it shouldn't be enforced by law. It's not the government's duty to raise children, that what the parents are for.

Why shouldn't young people play this game? Will it scar them for life? Will they become mass murderers?

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You can debate the effectiveness of the ESRB ratings and how easy it is for kids to get at these games, but that's another argument altogether.

I've been hearing this here and there, and I'm beginning to think that this doesn't really make sense: yes, rhetorically, it IS another argument altogether, but deep down, I guess it's always about wondering if there is a proper and safe way to deliver a game to its intended 'market' or proper viewership. If one could do this in the traditional retail chain, there would be no reason to ban it in the first place.

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Easy enough if you make it so it can only be bought with a credit card or something of the like. Can't get one unless you're 18. Problem solved. (ish, I'm assuming that if the parent gives their child their card to make that purchase, they're aware of it.) It's like someone said over on the TF2 beta thread when the game launched. Awaiting and dreading the flood of minors who didn't get in the beta because you had to preorder by credit card.

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Except that owning a credit card isn't a normal thing in the rest of the world, besides, it's not that difficult to find your parent credit card.

If kids can find their parent's gun collection they could also find their credit card.

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If kids can find their parent's gun collection they could also find their credit card.

No amount of censorship - or any other kind of sanctioned meddling - will ever get around that problem though. :fart:

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Does it make it more enjoyable to choke a person to death using a plastic bag when you see his blood splatter around the room?

More enjoyable? I thought you were talking about depth. The saving grace of a game like this would be that the killings are not even meant to be enjoyable, but rather they show the brutality and horror of violence.

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That's true but there are other titles where the horror of violence and death can be witnessed. Here it is just senseless killing for the sake of killing. Yes it shows that violence can be brutal but does showing off the killing and exactly how the person was killed really add to the depth of a game which encourages you to kill random people for no reason?

Censorship is a bad thing yes and it's probably not very effective but the question is still, does seeing the killing of people add to the depth of the entire game when the game is very shallow to begin with?

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[Does] seeing the killing of people add to the depth of the entire game when the game is very shallow to begin with?

No--it's a cheap hook.

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Depends on the How, When and Why.

And it's also a number game, killing a few can add meaning. Killing a lot just keeps it shallow. And Manhunt 2 looks like very shallow killing. It's like the special moves in an average final fantasy game, they are great the first few times you see them. After that it's just an annoyance. Performing a slow kill as shown manhunt 2 is "fun" the first few times. But after you've seen enough various moves they will simply get in your way. Well.. that my POV anyway.

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That's true but there are other titles where the horror of violence and death can be witnessed. Here it is just senseless killing for the sake of killing.

Oh, absolutely agreed. Just wanted clarification on your definition of depth. I don't really have anything to contribute to this discussion. I think Manhunt 2 is a very shitty variety of shit, though I haven't seen a single second of gameplay. I don't like censorship, but I don't want to see Rockstar: Fuck a Decapitated Dog Simulator on sale either.

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What I wonder is is anyone actually buying this game? I assume not, and any sales that exist are primarily driven by the publicity it's gotten (and the fact that it's Rockstar). If anyone other than Rockstar had made this, I suspect no one would have given a damn, sales would have been dismal, and censorship would be unnecessary past the enforcement-of-18-limits pretty much everybody already agrees on. Ideally market forces would prevent these types of games from being made at any significant rate because they won't sell well. (And if market forces don't, then we have a problem with our culture, not the company that's taking advantage of it. I don't want to sound like I'm abdicating Rockstar/corporations in general of responsibility, because this is scum, but this is scum that only works if people enjoy the scum itself.)

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A few years ago, I knew someone who was into Manhunt 1, and I'd be pretty surprised if he wouldn't love Manhunt 2 Uncensored. He was a crazy guy. He would actually demonstrate the Manhunt moves on you, Gareth Keenan style. But then extremely scary. You just had this feeling that he was constantly teetering on the edge of becoming a psychopath himself.

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