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Marek

When is the US going to implode?

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Yay politics.

I was just watching some clips from the Daily Show and my mind is exploding for the thousandth time.

Let's see:

  • Hurricane Katrina
  • Harriet E. Miers
  • Dubai ports
  • Cheney's hunting accident
  • Intelligence fraud
  • Guantanamo Bay torture
  • WMD lies
  • Jack Abramoff
  • Lewis "Scooter" Libby
  • Stolen election
  • Plame
  • Alberto R. Gonzales scandal
  • Paul D. Wolfowitz scandal
  • Medicare money scandal
  • The senate computer theft scandal
  • Cheney's secret Energy Task Force (and now his denial of being part of the executive branch)
  • Government pulling a billion favors for Halliburton, Halliburton money disappearing in Iraq
  • Iraq war (now longer than the US fight in WW2)
  • Approval ratings below 50% for past 30 months
  • A billion+ cases of government making contradictory statements to the public
  • Not to mention scandals surrounding Republicans like Mark Foley and Tom DeLay
  • Oh yeah I forgot Abu Ghraib

And yes, I had to look half of those up because there's just too many scandals to remember.

What the fuck is wrong with the USA? Why is the Bush administration still in power? Why is Bush not impeached or at the very least subject of some kind of massive congressional hearing? (Why am I posting this thread?)

Even if America gets a good president in 2008, will he or she be able to fix a disfunctional cancerous system that is apparently unable to deal with a lying, incompetent and criminal government? It's hard to be optimistic. And it's pretty scary. And I don't want to say it, but is this thing going to blow up in everyone's faces eventually?

Back to Jon Stewart. :shifty:

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Oh Marek, I love you because of your cute idealism.

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Errr, I didn't really know what else to reply.

Yeah it all sucks, but in politics there seems to be no such thing as accumulative judgement. As long as the government wheedle out of each individual incident as it occurs then they are fine - there's no score kept.

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Err what part of my post above is idealistic? :erm:

Maybe the word Dan was looking for was naiveté

I basically have the same questions as Marek. I once saw this 'america' expert tell us that by the year 2050 the entire USA would be a nothing but a empty shell of it's former self, morally, socially and financially bankrupt.

Better start learning mandarin I guess ;(

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Dan: Well... the US political system did work at some point, more or less.

And I know it works, more or less, in my own country. Our Prime Minister could certainly survive one scandal, maybe a few if they're far enough apart, but if he'd be mismanaging the country to the extent that George Bush is mismanaging America, he'd be out a job LONG AGO, most certainly under serious investigation, and possibly heading for jail.

The way this is going I'm afraid the expert ysbreker mentions will be right, except I don't think the USA will go there a lot sooner than 2050.

Also, yes, Paris Hilton.

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You think it's bad watching from outside? Think of what it feels like to be watching it happen all around you. It's become almost surreal in how Bush & co. have become more and more blatantly ridiculous with their claims and yet still nothing ever happens to them. I thought with an opposition Congress we might get something done, but we're so tied up in partisanship that the Republicans will block anything that might damage the President... (when it seems to me their best chance of winning the '08 election at this point is to distance themselves from him, not continue to be his lapdog, but whatever).

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I may be a little more lenient than Marek by saying that I don't think it's fair to expect a country that huge and with such burdens to run 100% smoothly. A few scandals and some mismanagement is bound to happen. In no way does that free the Bush administration from the amount of lying, subterfuge, flim-flam and chicanery that has been done and practiced over the past years ever since 9/11 (and before that with the not keeping to Kyoto protocols).

There is a decided level of irony that one of the main reasons that Americans are allowed to have guns is that the nation was born by wresting itself violently from the clutches of the governments from the Old World, and so they have guns to ensure they can always free themselves should the rulers become too oppressive. But where are the riots? What good are all those guns when over half the population is too stupid to realise they're being fucked with and that they have the ability to end it?

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  • Hurricane Katrina
  • Harriet E. Miers
  • Dubai ports
  • Cheney's hunting accident
  • Intelligence fraud
  • Guantanamo Bay torture
  • WMD lies
  • Jack Abramoff
  • Lewis "Scooter" Libby
  • Stolen election
  • Plame
  • Alberto R. Gonzales scandal
  • Paul D. Wolfowitz scandal
  • Medicare money scandal
  • The senate computer theft scandal
  • Cheney's secret Energy Task Force (and now his denial of being part of the executive branch)
  • Government pulling a billion favors for Halliburton, Halliburton money disappearing in Iraq
  • Iraq war (now longer than the US fight in WW2)
  • Approval ratings below 50% for past 30 months
  • A billion+ cases of government making contradictory statements to the public
  • Not to mention scandals surrounding Republicans like Mark Foley and Tom DeLay
  • Oh yeah I forgot Abu Ghraib

Obviously, the next few months are going to be a critical time for the Republican party ;)

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It's the most fucking depressing thing to see what has happened to this country since Bush took office. Even now, Bush and Cheney (the devil) are trying to prevent the White House from being subpoened for the whole Prosecutor firing thing. There's too much and Bush's approval rating is the absolute lowest of any President, ever. You hear rumblings of impeachment but no one in our government seems to have the fucking balls to do anything about it. I have no clue who the hell I'll be voting for in 2008. Definitely not a Republican (Guiliani - blech, McCain - argh) as I'm officially a Democrat but they don't really seem to be doing anything effective either. I really don't think we need another Clinton in the White House and Hillary is too much of a panderer. I have to do more research on the other candidates. People say Obama doesn't have enough experience but hell, Bush didn't either. Could he really be any worse? I just don't get any substance behind what plans he's talked about. The election is a gajillion years away (like 500 days I heard) so there's a lot more politicking to come.

That was very rambling and I apologize.

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The style of politics that won Bush two elections is also the style of politics that keeps him in power despite all the bullshit. That style is to instill complete and absolute apathy in everyone except your core supporters. It's a fucking brilliant way of hacking democracy, tbh, even if it is totally immoral.

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I agree with SpiderMonkey. It's definitely apathy but I think that early on in Bush's presidency and with 9/11 happening, he got away with a lot and that's when the apathy started. He made it a sin to even question his administration. At that time, when the media should have been tough as nails and really asking the hard questions, they rolled over. An poorly informed democracy doesn't work. The people who were asking the tough questions were being ignored or were not given the airtime or were shouted down by the right wingers.

I love Keith Olbermann too - he rocks:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19588942/

(you can read what he says but it's cool to watch, no.. it's awesome to watch. I almost cried at a couple of points)

And to Marek: I don't know if this place is going to go to hell. I really don't and it's scary. No matter who you vote for it doesn't seem like the things that should be happening, do. When we should be focusing on health care, education, narrowing the divide between the haves and the have nots, etc. all we have is this administration and the war and the 'fight on terrorism'. I think sometimes that the obsession with celebrity is America's way of blocking off all of the bad shit that's happening.

So I just don't know what the ordinary American can do. Theoretically, contact your congressmen/women (Representatives, Senators) and bitch like hell but it seems like Congress gets stuck in bickering and minutiae and can't deal with big picture items. It's all so partisan - like Olbermann refers to in that video I linked to - it seems to be party above country with anything anymore. :sad:

I'm rambling again...

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Wow, Olbermann sure knows how to say it. Are there people listening too? Time to hit the streets with riots, I'd say.

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Yeah, Keith Olbermann is amazing. It's a minor miracle that someone is able to do such op-eds on a US news network.

Mel & Redwall: it must be terrible being in the middle of it. If I were in your shoes I wouldn't know what to do about it either. Protests don't seem to get picked up by the media, so you'd have to have a massive fuckoff protest to get noticed. That's really the only thing that might work. "Write your representative" is a joke.

I really wonder how the USA will cope. It's stuck in two terrible wars, has massive debt to countries like China, has a rapidly devalueing currency and is apparently unable to deal with countries like Venezuela, Iran and increasingly Russia (who have oil, and oil prices are high, which means they can have big mouths).

And those are just the things on the immediate agenda. A few years further down the line the US could get into a lot of trouble with its infrastructure, as the rest of the world is at least trying to adapt theirs towards inevitable oil scarcity and a need for renewable clean energy and sustainability in general. (I know some great stuff is happening in a few states, but it might be too little, too late).

I'm really imagining civil unrest and/or economic collapse in the next decade (at best) regardless of who gets elected president. Am I a doomthinker or is this a realistic expectation?

Anyway, maybe move to Sweden for a while and wait for all of this to blow over. :shifty:

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The video linked above is quite moving, but there isn't permanent profit from permanent war - there's pissing away a strong economy, but also the interactions it was based on. Speaking of which...

And those are just the things on the immediate agenda. A few years further down the line the US could get into a lot of trouble with its infrastructure, as the rest of the world is at least trying to adapt theirs towards inevitable oil scarcity and a need for renewable clean energy and sustainability in general. (I know some great stuff is happening in a few states, but it might be too little, too late).

I suspect enough corporations have had the good sense to jump on the bright green bandwagon that this won't be as bad or hopeless as you think. Plenty of engines of power don't follow Bushes lead, and if there's one thing Iraq has demonstrated to forward thinking people, it's exactly how impossible oil economies are going to become, if not environmentally then politically and economically.

(It's not like it offsets a fraction of the evil Shrub has done, but I think he's accidentally closed some doors that humans could really do without anyway).

Given what the administration has done to the economy, it seems inexhorable that US standard of living will decline, or at least recede relative to the rest of the world.

I don't know how bad that could get though. The political situation has become bad enough that there are small movements for some states to secede from the union. Between that, e-voting controversy, an insane and dumb national security apparatus, and the unusually steep ideological divides around religion and sex, I can certainly see trouble at the Federal level, but individual states might prove to be fairly resilient once they realise they're on their own?

Or perhaps people will start waving their guns about more :sad:

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I think sometimes that the obsession with celebrity is America's way of blocking off all of the bad shit that's happening.

The obsession with celebrity is the media's best tool in instilling political apathy and ignorance. I don't really buy the "it's market-driven news, and that's what the market wants" argument.

And those are just the things on the immediate agenda. A few years further down the line the US could get into a lot of trouble with its infrastructure, as the rest of the world is at least trying to adapt theirs towards inevitable oil scarcity and a need for renewable clean energy and sustainability in general. (I know some great stuff is happening in a few states, but it might be too little, too late).

I'm really imagining civil unrest and/or economic collapse in the next decade (at best) regardless of who gets elected president. Am I a doomthinker or is this a realistic expectation?

I don't imagine civil unrest (though if you read enough semi-conspiracy news stories, you get the impression that US politicians are already working to protect against that eventuality, with the flexibility of terrorist legislation, building big detention camps, passing laws to allow use of the military internally, etc). But I do imagine a serious collapse in any kind of power or influence. A lot of people in Western countries seem to think that would be a good thing, but it worries me what will happen when China or India or Russia are calling the shots. They are hardly going to be as friendly to Europe/Canada/etc as the US is now, even if it seems like the US regards them with contempt.

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Nachimir: you're right, a lot of businesses are already heading in the right direction. I regularly read TreeHugger.com where there's a lot of positive news about corporations 'going green'. I wonder if it's enough though. The American lifestyle needs to undergo a lot of changes, and resistance to such changes might just hold out too long without some kind of large federal effort. But yeah, maybe I'm underestimating the adaptability of the US through state-level change. Hopefully!

I don't know how bad that could get though. The political situation has become bad enough that there are small movements for some states to secede from the union. Between that, e-voting controversy, an insane and dumb national security apparatus, and the unusually steep ideological divides around religion and sex, I can certainly see trouble at the Federal level, but individual states might prove to be fairly resilient once they realise they're on their own?
I would cry tears of joy if just one state seceded from the union (peacefully of course). In an ideal world the United States would break up into countries right about now, with possibly an overarching open borders treaty and a basic monetary and trade union. Things would be a lot better.

Also, if California were to split off from the US I would emigrate there instantly. :shifty:

SpiderMonkey: put me in the "that would be a good thing" camp. Although I do share concern about China. Economic projections for that country for some reason always assume that its growth will continue at its current rate for ever and ever and ever. Of course, it's going to curve off. But it does make you wonder about the possibility of China turning hostile in central Asia during the next few decades when it comes to securing oil.

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jesusland.jpg

I would love if the US broke up into several different nations, too. I honestly think that our size is one of the big underlying reasons for how fucked-up we are.

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I hope if China ever becomes hostile it will conquer parts of Russia and Russia becomes a small unimportant country. That would teach those bastards a lesson. Of course, that would create another problem...

Anyway, it seems that Russia can never become a democratic country. Some semioticians who have studied Russia think that the the Russian people can never* accept anything else but a despot ruling over them. For China, there may be some hope.

-----

* maybe never is a bit strong

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I hope if China ever becomes hostile it will conquer parts of Russia and Russia becomes a small unimportant country. That would teach those bastards a lesson.

Teach them a lesson for what? Engaging in a cold war? At least they never used their nukes, unlike some nations. Being the subject of 40 years of US propaganda? Yeah, teach 'em a lesson for that :P

Maybe you were being ironic, I dunno.

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The current govt. of Russia could probably do with a lesson in not being an abusive petrocrat, though the most effective thing to do that would be distributed green power eating away every last bit of influence granted by Russian oil and gas reserves. The degree to which the Russian state works without the people it supposedly governs, as well as the general disregard for life there and fairly chronic widespread alcoholism in Russian culture (Apparently and unfortunately not just a stereotype) is quite shocking.

(Caveat: I only have the latter parts second hand from people who've spent non-tourist time in Russia).

Then there's China, which are not only hosting factories that are making knockoff AK-47s and missile launchers, but will also allow them to be exported to pretty much anyone.

An increasingly brazen nuclear power and increasing ease of access to small arms are a couple of very disturbing world trends, and while there's a lot to learn from them, it seems like there are very few lessons to be "taught".

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I don't really buy the "it's market-driven news, and that's what the market wants" argument.

I agree, if "we're giving the market what it wants" were the be all and end all of it, the promotion arm of all marketing would be redundant, and it's so obviously not. Journos from UK tabloid The Sun often use it to defend their more objectionable and repulsive stories, but the fact is the paper recently launched and, unfortunately, to quite some extent succeeded with, a major campaign to win over more young male readers.

The idea that big media is in touch with and serving a market is one of the more laughable fictions from the last century. The net is fortunately eating its lunch :)

The obsession with celebrity is the media's best tool in instilling political apathy and ignorance.

I don't buy this though. That's full of generalisations and there are simpler and more direct profits. While celebrity is indeed a very good distraction from more controversial events, it's not necessarily *why* it occurs and is reported on. The 80/20 rule has emerged in all kinds of fields and celebrity is no exception. From film stars and bands to product catalogues and services, a whole lot of things ride on and have been marketed by means of power laws.

This was kind of a necessity of doing big business in the 20th century, with limited media channels equalling very large voices. The way to reach an audience has now changed, and few people understand it. But broadcast media is now losing time to MMOs, social networking and the web in general.

While the net is decidedly flattening power laws and making the long tails profitable (Owain Bennallack had an excellent op-ed recently in UK game dev mag Develop, basically talking about the hope games have had of reaching the mass market: "Welcome. You just reached it. It's broken to pieces and is full of niches now. The glory days of the music top 40 are never coming back" :)), vestiges of power laws remain and will probably continue to be a part of culture.

The most powerful, the most beautiful, the wealthiest, the most influential, etc. We're just interested in that kind of thing, though often it's not polite to talk about that interest in the abstract. A lot of people don't want to believe it, I try to stay away from it myself. It simultaneously disgusts us in its shallowness, while at the same time nearly everyone would quite like to ride right to the top of a power law.

It's not unusual for a social species at all. If you show male chimps a load of pictures, they're far more interested in ones that show powerful, dominant males and sexually aroused females. There's no chimpanzee conspiracy or group of shadow-chimps manipulating that to divert attention from decisions of a chimp council, and while similar may occasionally be the case with humans it's by no means the whole of it.

Of course though, it *would* be nice to believe the whole phenomenon was entirely artificial ;)

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