Manhunt 2 Banned in the UK

[Wrestlevania]

...fuck! I mean, ask a few leading questions why don't you..?

I've voiced my concerns elsewhere on this spiralling into a Europe-wide ban, as a direct result of the BBFC's action. Looks like it may be heading that way.

[Wrestlevania]

I know not that to which you refer.

[Thrik]

Wtf.

Someone needs to get this video, crop it out of the Consolevania episode it appeared in, and then put it on YouTube.

[Nachimir]

Episode 3:

http://www.cmd-q.com/consolevania/s1e3.html

8:50 in.

I wondered where that came from.

[nsps]

Has an AO rating here in North America too, if sources are to be believed. Not as big a deal, mind, but it means that essentially only specialty stores will bother to stock it and the big Wal Mart/Zellers/HBC/etc won't be selling the game.

Any chance of a ban in Canada, Miffy? I know films like "Fat Girl" (which only has one really disturbing scene and that scene has a point) have been banned, but it might just've been in once Province.

In the US, the only thing to worry about is defacto censorship—i.e. stores that won't stock the game because it's AO. This is a problem with movies here (Blockbuster won't rent NC-17, some movie theaters won't show them and some newspapers won't run the ads), but not many games get above M so I don't really know.

[toblix]

There's just something wrong about using the Wii remote and nunchuck as "pliers" to tear off a man's testicles, or "sawing" up into his groin with a hacksaw. I have to play this.

[SiN]

Any chance of a ban in Canada, Miffy? I know films like "Fat Girl" (which only has one really disturbing scene and that scene has a point) have been banned, but it might just've been in once Province.

I doubt it. Aren't we a bit more lenient than the States?

In the US, the only thing to worry about is defacto censorship—i.e. stores that won't stock the game because it's AO. This is a problem with movies here (Blockbuster won't rent NC-17, some movie theaters won't show them and some newspapers won't run the ads), but not many games get above M so I don't really know.

ESRB might as well have not given it a certificate. A game with an AO rating doesn't get stocked, period.

I don't know how I feel about the whole thing. I'm not convinced the BBFC made a terrible decision here. The game honestly doesn't sound like it has any redeeming features at all. It's only feature is shock value, which is really a bit immature. I'm sick of games featuring violence just for the sake of being sick/gruesome/etc. Moving away from this train of thought is going to be essential if we want video games to grow up.

And similar to Carmaggedon, this sounds like a developer wanting to know how far they can push the limits. Rockstar will no doubt clean up the game and release it in an "M rating" form ... hell, I wouldn't be surprised if they have some of the media/code ready for that. Because when they threw in the "ripping off another mans testicles" feature, surely they thought that the game might get an AO rating ... I imagine they've had a "backup plan" for this scenario.

SiN

[nsps]

I doubt it. Aren't we a bit more lenient than the States?

The rating system might be, but the US doesn't officially ban the stuff. Here are some of the films that have been banned in Canada (including something about Pokemon—huh?):

http://www.imdb.com/List?certificates=Canada:(Banned)&&heading=14;Canada:(Banned)

Anyway, "Fat Girl" was specifically banned in Ontario, but it was apparently later given an R, so I don't know what's up with that.

I'm not particularly looking forward to this game (never played the first), but don't agree with banning anything. Does it have any aspirations other than to shock people with violence?

[Roderick]

Hehe. Wouldn't surprise me to see Bummed In The Gob part two soon.

[SiN]

I'm not particularly looking forward to this game (never played the first), but don't agree with banning anything. Does it have any aspirations other than to shock people with violence?

That's the thing, it really doesn't. Not as far as I can see anyway. And that's the reason BBFC gave for banning it. They pretty much said that while Manhunt1 was pretty gruesome, the game put your actions in context. Manhunt2 is just cold, unjustified killing. We don't really need this ... we need the creative talents at Rockstar to come up with something meaningful. I hope the "no certificate/AO" rating makes this happen, but somehow, I think it'll just encourage this behavior even more.

SiN

[nsps]

My problem with any game being banned is that it's impossible to quantify artistic intent. Recognize the game as being for adults only? By all means. Refuse to let mature adults judge the game's merits themselves? That just stinks of the arrogance that the game's makers may have shown in producing exploitational garbage (if the game is indeed that—I don't know enough about it).

[Thrik]

Episode 3:

http://www.cmd-q.com/consolevania/s1e3.html

8:50 in.

I wondered where that came from.

Hahaha, that's the stuff. A classic, and highly relevant to this thread! Need to start watching at 5:30 to fully appreciate it though, clearly.

I really do need to download and watch all these series 1 Consolevania episodes some day. I only saw a scattered few of them.

[Ginger]

The kids parents want the game banned? I'm sure that once the hoo-hah calmed down it emerged that the killer did not own a copy of manhunt and it was the victim who did (probably brought or funded by his parents), so it could be responsible in the sense that it served as a distraction to the victim and prevented him from going out and learning how to be hard and not get his head kick to death.

[miffy495]

The rating system might be, but the US doesn't officially ban the stuff. Here are some of the films that have been banned in Canada (including something about Pokemon—huh?):

http://www.imdb.com/List?certificates=Canada:(Banned)&&heading=14;Canada:(Banned)

Anyway, "Fat Girl" was specifically banned in Ontario, but it was apparently later given an R, so I don't know what's up with that.

I'm not particularly looking forward to this game (never played the first), but don't agree with banning anything. Does it have any aspirations other than to shock people with violence?

Ok, so moving down the list:

That list seems to be mostly populated by porn of the disturbingly hardcore variety. (Creme de la Face 44: Creme Rinse is an especially evocative title) or titles that I'm pretty sure had the ban lifted. For example, Day of the Dead is on there, but just a couple of months ago I bought a DVD copy of it from a Canadian HMV. As such, I'm really not sure how much of the list applies.

The thing about the R rating is due to an international standards thing. In Canada, we call what Americans use R to describe 18A. Getting an 18A rating in Canada is getting an R rating in the states. We don't have NC17. What you call NC17, we call R. As a movie theater manager, I can say for sure that if there's a minor in a Canadian R rated movie, with adult supervision or not, the theater will be fined several thousand dollars if the kid is caught. The fact that my theater is an art house and is one of the two in the city that will show an R rated movie means that I'm always very conscious of this fact.

As for the aspirations of Manhunt, I assume it'll have the same merits as the first. This being that it plays like a horror game from the other side of the coin. While disturbing and not especially "fun" to play, this really did give it a unique feel that still stands out for me. Having Brian Cox order me to kill in brutal ways was plenty fucked up and a very memorable gameplay experience.

[Noyb]

Here are some of the films that have been banned in Canada (including something about Pokemon—huh?):

I think that Pokemon episode was the one that triggered that epilepsy/seizure scare over in Japan from the blinking lights.

Personally, Manhunt creeps me out. I never had much of a desire to play it, but I still don't think that censorship is the way to go. It seems like part of the problem is that the lawmakers refuse to believe that M-rated games are intended for adults, so what they view as extreme is lumped into a level somehow higher than a classification for mature audiences.

Edit: Ah, since neither Sony nor Nintendo want AO games on their consoles, it is essentially censorship.

[twmac]

The original Manhunt was equal parts gruelling and enthralling, at first it was sort of amusing and ridiculous what with the violence being way over the top. Then it got dull as the actions were of a rinse/repeat nature.

Half way through the game it started getting really hard, and I started to become engrossed in the game (this happened around the time you were required to save members of your family). I felt the game did a good job of making you really hate the antagonists, and despite the lead being almost as shitty, you rooted for him when it took half an hour of some white supremacist/fucked up rapist taunting you for you to finally get behind them and break their necks letting you get to the next check point.

The music was superb, it reminded me of a classic John Carpenter score. Yet you were Michael Myers stalking other serial killers instead of helpless teens

Honestly, the first game came from a dark place but the overall experience was cathartic rather than gratuitous. Okay maybe gratutitous to a point, but when the tension of being tracked by 7 sadistic SWAT mebers with flashlights, culminates with you successfully shiving one of them and then turning the tables using an automatic rifle on the rest. It is no more violent, repugnant, engrossing than any one of Arnie's early endeavours. Maybe a bad choice of genres but I still fell it is unfair to come down hard on Manhunt as it had a slow burning, minimilist plot that turned out to be far better and more effective than any over blown bullshit RPG I've played in recent years.

Yes, I'm looking at you Final Fantasy.

If Manhunt 2 strays from this and focuses too much on the physical violence as cheap entertainment then it will have sorely missed the poitn of the original.

[nsps]

I think that Pokemon episode was the one that triggered that epilepsy/seizure scare over in Japan from the blinking lights.

Personally, Manhunt creeps me out. I never had much of a desire to play it, but I still don't think that censorship is the way to go. It seems like part of the problem is that the lawmakers refuse to believe that M-rated games are intended for adults, so what they view as extreme is lumped into a level somehow higher than a classification for mature audiences.

Oh yeah. That and the Creme Rinse.

Edit: Ah, since neither Sony nor Nintendo want AO games on their consoles, it is essentially censorship.

So, there's no way that they could release the AO version on the Wii? Lame. The Wii is a porn portal, after all.

I've always been more familiar with the MPAA's hold, but this de facto censorship is even tighter, in that it completely eliminates format choices, rather than just outlets. So I assume that this will definitely be altered to an M rating and the AO rating won't be available? It looks like in this case there is no difference between the government imposed and the voluntary, unless they want to release the game on PC.

[Thrik]

Hee, well the Nintendo thing's not surprising considering the forced censorship of games like Mortal Kombat in the 90s. :~ I think we're far from completely out of the censorship shackles, although in recent times it's easy to think we are.

Rockstar clearly likes to test the waters and I don't think anyone can really be surprised they've ended up with this happening considering their past history. Granted, every Rockstar game I've ever played has been great, but they seriously need to stop pulling down their pants and asking to be raped by politicians and censors.

Of course I also have some personal contention with the fact that adult games are so freely available to every kid in this country (if you remember being a kid or have a younger son/daughter/brother/sister you should agree here), making the whole rating system kind of a joke. It wouldn't surprise me if they banned Manhunt 2 just to stop it getting into the younger hands, which is something I wouldn't oppose considering it basically epitomises game violence.

I mean I don't think they banned this game just to be dicks, but a better approach would be to better educate parents so they realise that 18 means it's not for fucking children. Perfectly responsible parents just don't treat game ratings with the same seriousness they might if they were buying a film for their kid. I know PEGI tried to do this with their newish informative site, but it's not been circulated that well.

In an ideal world, only people over 18 would play 18 games and they'd know what exactly was in the game that earned it such a rating beforehand; the decision of playing it would be their responsibility and the BBFC would never need to censor anything. Unfortunately, basically the opposite seems to be the case right now. It's no surprise the BBFC are trying to protect people from themselves.

Buh! Messy subjects.

[miffy495]

Well, it's not so easy for kids to get their hands on M games anymore, at least from what I've seen. I can remember when Vice City came out and I went to pick up my preorder. I was 14 or 15, can't recall exactly. The guy at the counter even went so far as to raise an eyebrow and say "You're not 18, are you?" before shrugging and handing the game over. Thank God I wasn't an overly impressionable little bastard. 4 and a bit years later (hmmm... must've been 15) now and I'm waiting in line seeing 17.5 year olds in front of me in line being carded and denied copies of whatever the newest shooter-du-jour is. Odd considering you're supposed to be able to buy M rated if you're over 17, but it seems EB has adopted an 18+ policy.

The irony is that I see this while waiting to get my copy of Super Princess Peach or Pokemon. Oh how tastes have changed. (although I still can't fucking wait for GTAIV)

[eljay]

Miffy you do realise you are talking about different countries right?

Also I think Thrik is more referring to the terrible parents that are rife in this country who will buy whatever game their kids want without a second thought.

they suck.

[Thrik]

Well I mean, I live in the UK which is where the BBFC have banned Manhunt 2, and I know for a fact that pretty much any young kid can get hold of these games if they want them. If it isn't a retarded shop assistant who gives it them (granted, GAME tends to be quite professional about this in Nottingham/Mansfield), it'll be a parent who simply doesn't understand that games contain genuinely disturbing content and think we're still in the days of Pac-Man.

It's like just the other day my 10-year-old sister said she'd been playing on San Andreas at a friend's house that their parents bought (naturally thinking it was cool as fuck), although she'd never be allowed to play the likes of Manhunt or Grand Theft Auto at home. Bear in mind the friend in question is actually 9, and very possibly had it long before then too. Not the first instance of this, either.

There's no way Manhunt or any game would be as disturbing if it were made in 1996 with ridiculously blocky 3D environments interspersed with low-resolution sprites for characters and effects. Games are growing up, and so is the level of seriousness the ratings have to be treated with by adults in general.

Heck, even I was freely allowed to play games like Duke Nukem 3D when it came out, albeit after my dad played them first, him being as much a gamer as I've ever been. I wouldn't have been allowed if it had the level of detail on all that violence and the naked chicks as a modern game would, though. Most parents don't even know enough about games to make this distinction or observation, though.

I realise my thoughts on this subject are becoming a bit fuzzy. It's something that's impossible to police and please everyone or not be a little hypocritical about, but something that does need addressing somehow. Whatever happens, things need to change so that censorship is never really an option. The other systems in place need to back that up though, so the release of an uncut Manhunt 2 wouldn't equate to "loads of kids will play this game".

[elmuerte]

In an ideal world, only people over 18 would play 18 games and they'd know what exactly was in the game that earned it such a rating beforehand;

No it's not. The rating is not an age limiter, it's an "maturity" indicator.

There is the assumption that an 18+ year old is responsible enough to properly handle the content of the game.

There isn't anything magical that happens to everybody when they turn 18.

[Thrik]

Well, no. It is an age limiter, and the law backs that definition up. I completely appreciate your assertion that people could be suitable for an 18-rated film or game earlier than actually being aged 18, but it's unlikely to be too much earlier or too much later.

It's rightfully considered the age at which extremely violence, extremely disturbing concepts, and extreme sexual content should be permissible for selling to a person based on the likelihood they can handle it.

I think it's probably best we not steer this into a debate on rating semantics. I'm more referring to the more extreme ends of classificiation, which specifically is younger audiences playing older audience games. Once you get close enough so that the person's maturity affects whether or not they should really be allowed to watch/play it, it's no longer relevant.

[Wrestlevania]

Take Two kick things up a gear, calling Manhunt 2 a "fine piece of art":

Take Two chairman Strauss Zelnick said Manhunt 2 had his full support and that consumers should decide for themselves.

"The Rockstar team has come up with a game that fits squarely within the horror genre and was intended to do so," Mr Zelnick said in a statement.

The sale of the game is unlikely to go ahead in the US and has not been granted certification in the UK.

I've always wanted to play the sequel. This media tit-for-tat has me leaning heavily on the "subversive marketing ploy" angle now though. Idiots.

[n0wak]

Any chance of a ban in Canada, Miffy? I know films like "Fat Girl" (which only has one really disturbing scene and that scene has a point) have been banned, but it might just've been in once Province.

http://www.cbc.ca/arts/story/2005/05/31/film050531.html

It's a touchy issue. Obviously, Canada is less ban-hammer-happy than places like the UK and Australia and Germany, but being AO puts it into murky waters. If the game was rated M, I think that legally it could NOT be banned. But being AO puts it into another category so the jury's still out.

One thing I'm wondering and I haven't seen addressed anywhere. The first Manhunt game was rated M. What is there in Manhunt 2 that is that much more offensive? I have a hard time thinking that the "casual sadism" has been scaled up that much from the first game. It comes across to me as a rating based more on reputation and history than the content of the game, as if the ESRB is saying "we don't want to go through that again." I've found no clear answer to this.