elmuerte Posted June 18, 2007 Bad flash support is not because of Linux, it's because of Adobe. Virtual desktops is not a Linux thing, it's a Unix thing. Windows doesn't save window positions either, does Mac OSX do that? Besides... window management on Linux/BSD systems depends on the Window Manager you use. You can change between various window managers. Gnome, KDE, XFCE and CDE are complete packages, with window and desktop managers and tool sets. There are other window managers like: AfterStep, GNUstep, FluxBox, FVWM, Enlightenment, ... But yes, more cohesion couldn't hurt. But this also applies to MS Windows. Even their own products are not very similar in interface usage. Pretty much every current ms office version feels alien in the current windows version. MS Office 2007 being the most alien ever. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nachimir Posted June 18, 2007 Bad flash support is not because of Linux Never claimed it was, and even mentioned my expectation that third party development would get better. Sorry for the lack of clarity, but I'm looking at it from a users viewpoint: and educating users about development viewpoints and issues is a lost cause. Like telling gamers "Sorry this game is shit but we were on crunch lots and our project leads were shit". "Oh right. We see. We'll enjoy it more now". I also know full well about desktop environments. Window position and size mangement in all the Linux desktop environments I've seen (though mainly Gnome) is abysmal in comparison to both OS-X and Windows. OS-X does remember window sizes, and I recall it being likewise in Windows. Whether or not that is an OS function or the fact the most or all developers for either are conscientious enough to put it in their applications, I do not know. Either way, gnome is behaving in a dumb way with this. I've seen way too many responses to these issues (especially no option to turn off select+middle-click copy and paste) that amount to an insecure sounding "FUCK OFF THIS ISN'T WINDOWS". Art galleries that talk about educating their ignorant audience end up deserted. Hippie environmentalism is dead in the water because all it did was launch guilt trips to box people in with ideology. Segways turned out to not be the revolution in personal transport predicted by Dean Kamen. All of these things are essentially obtuse. They share very poor performance based on assumptions made about and dictations made to a market/culture/mass of people. Gnome developers and users I've seen here and there remind me of those other things. Thank fuck Linux is OSS, because someone will make something better. Though they certainly (and thankfully) won't stay that way judging by OSS application trends, in many respects OS-X and Windows are currently both light years ahead of all the Linux builds I've seen and tried. There are plenty of OSS zealots ready to deny that point by point, but frankly, they're deluded. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elmuerte Posted June 18, 2007 That's not completely true. People got used to the way Windows does certain things, no matter how retarded they are. For some reason people accept that OSX works differently. But people won't accept that other desktop environments (usually Linux based) work differently. It's probably because gnome and kde look much more like windows than OSX does. Windows doesn't remember where windows were placed or how. This is done by the programs. There are some tools that remember it for certain applications. But it's not like explorer correctly remembers it's window position. Maybe if you have a single monitor setup it will look ok, but I have more than one monitor in use and sometimes explorer windows open on the wrong screen, I can't pin them down there. Anyway, there is an additional issue with X11 (<-- the windowing system used by most unix OSs). X11 is a network capable graphical environment. I let remote applications run it's GUI on my local machine, and stuff like that. X11 supports a virtual unlimited number of screens. This introduces a problem with saving window positions. And well.. when this get complicated people often do either a half assed job or not at all. But it's not like it's not possible to force a window to be opened at a certain location, it might just not be easy to do so (from a user perspective). I never had much issues with it anyway, but then again I often work from a commandline in my linux environment (even if I have a graphical user interface instead of a terminal). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Erkki Posted June 18, 2007 I think Nachimir is mostly right. Many Linux users I personally know are elitist bastards (at least partially) and they somehow can't grasp that for Linux to get more adopted, it has to be a lot more user friendly, which some see as "dumbed down". I see this simply as smart developers realizing that the average computer user does simply not need to know and should not have to deal with all the things that we are used to knowing about computers. Computers need to make it simpler for ordinary people to take advantage of what they have to offer (while maintaining the possibility for advanced users to tweak things). I think such developements have been kept from having a big effect so far because the technology has been advancing too fast, but we are seeing more and more a movement towards user friendliness and simpicity happening now. Über-linux-geeks like Linus Torvalds will probably complain a lot about the effects of these movements in the future, but not many will listen. Lately I've even started doubting that maybe I should drop using Ubuntu and go back to using only windows, but then I use Windows a couple of days and will soon start missing some of the things that linux has. And my other computer that the other family members mostly use has been running Ubuntu for 2 years and I must say that's the least amount of problems I've had maintaining a computer. Hmm.. considering what I just said... I might have understated the differences I feel Linux and Windows have in my previous post in this thread. But I think currently all the major OS-s have problems, not just Linux. PS. I can't help but wonder if it's a vicious circle -- if Linux would have more adoption, there would be more money in it and all of the problems would be solved already. PPS. Saying that Linux is not Gnome or KDE or whatever is just looking at the issue from another direction. If you look from the average-computer-user point of view, then Linux is exactly what is most common and usable for such users (Gnome, I think). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wormsie Posted June 18, 2007 Linux is not GNome or KDELinux is an operating system. Gnome isn't an operating system, so to me saying "I use Mac now but I used to be a Gnome user" would sound strange as well. And me liking Linux isn't at all because of the user interface, it's mainly because of many other things, such as free software, package management, the amout of software available, not costing much and being relatively stable. True, many of those things are actually distribution-dependent and have nothing to do with the Linux core (although one could argue that the Linux core isn't just the kernel...).From your comment it sounds like you are one of those people who were introduced to computers a millio years ago when people programmed their own operating systems, so I understand if you are pissed because of the fact that us youngsters and old people alike use the general word "Linux" when they refer to a certain Linux-based distribution or the kernel and the window manager of their choice, and can talk about "Linux becoming more user-friendly" and refer to the development of the whole community, the software, the window managers, the distributions and all that jazz, and not at all to the fact that somebody added a few more comments to the kernel source code. To our defence, I just say that it's easier to call the Linux kernel and all the window managers and stuff around it with a general name "Linux". When I was referring to the development of Linux (and here again I don't mean just the kernel), I just didn't want to say "I'll wait if Ubuntu is better in three years", because I don't want to rule out other distributions. And it also depends on the software available for the system. Besides, command line isn't an operating system either. Or do you talk about the good sides of bash when discussing different operating systems with people? Or do you think that people who use a window manager with Linux can't call themselves Linux-users? Yeah, I claim that in everyday language, and why not in more formal cases as well, it's OK to use the term Linux refer to more than just the kernel. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wormsie Posted June 18, 2007 That said, the title of this thread could use some updating. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wormsie Posted June 18, 2007 Wormsie, you have just made my day And to think that I have had the Double Fine Baby as my avatar for ages and only now bought P-nauts. Well, it was significantly cheaper at least, than back then when it was released. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elmuerte Posted June 18, 2007 If I was going to bitch about anything I would bitch about the lack of distinction between using the term Linux and GNU/Linux. Linux is the kernel, GNU/Linux is an operating system. The GNU boys didn't have a working kernel for their system so they used Linux. The true GNU OS is GNU/Hurd. Anyway... you wouldn't say you were a Gnome user, you would say you're a Ubuntu user, or a SUSE, Mandriva, RedHat, Fedora, Debian, Xandros, etc, user. Also the whole thing of "user friendly" is in the eye of the beholder. User unfriendly is a given, but what is user friendly or what is intuitive is always a big guess. These days making things intuitive or user friendly is to use the defacto standard. Using a diskette icon to identify saving a file, even though diskettes are pretty much never used. A lot of intuitive user interfaces have been dropped, they were intuitive, but not for existing users. As for the copy/paste stuff. Originally copying and pasting was done using the left mouse to select and copy text and the middle mouse to paste text. But then somebody though it would be better to use a keyboard command, like Shift+Insert (paste) and Ctrl+Insert (copy). The reason for this is that most DOS users didn't have a mouse. MS used this until Windows 95 where they changed it to Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V. The reason for that was that Ctrl+Insert and Shift+Insert needed the right hand which was usually used for the mouse. On the Sun Sparc systems they simply had separate buttons for the copy and paste actions, it also had a enormous HELP button. (this was besides the function keys). The sparc keyboards even understood latin1 allowing you to compose letters like é by simply pressing compose-e-' The thing about GNU/Linux is diversity, where mac is more conformity and windows is just one gigantic mess. Diversity is nice to have, but can be troublesome. Conformity is great, but limits freedom. A gigantic mess is asking for problems. GNU/Linux is like crappy programmer art MacOSX is very stylish and wasteful Windows is ... a gigantic mess ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wormsie Posted June 18, 2007 If I was going to bitch about anything I would bitch about the lack of distinction between using the term Linux and GNU/Linux. Linux is the kernel, GNU/Linux is an operating system. The GNU boys didn't have a working kernel for their system so they used Linux. The true GNU OS is GNU/Hurd.Still, Canonical, for example, calls their Linux just "Ubuntu Linux", and I don't think that's a big crime. If you do, well, go ahead if you get some kind of satisfaction out of it. And I can always link to Wikipedia!Anyway... you wouldn't say you were a Gnome user, you would say you're a Ubuntu user, or a SUSE, Mandriva, RedHat, Fedora, Debian, Xandros, etc, user.And what can be Ubuntu, SUSE, Mandriva, RedHat, Fedora, Debian, Xandros, etc, users called collectively? Linux users. (Or GNU/Linux users if you really want to, though KDE, for example, isn't GNU...)Also the whole thing of "user friendly" is in the eye of the beholder.God damn, I never knew that! I always thought that what is user friendly to me doesn't depend on my opinions at all! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nachimir Posted June 18, 2007 GNU/Linux is like crappy programmer artMacOSX is very stylish and wasteful Windows is ... a gigantic mess ... I quite like this summary Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wormsie Posted June 19, 2007 Apparently only the Psychonauts Demo supports my Intel Graphics card. Darn. Well, I still have my old gaming PC, guess I'll use that to play P-nauts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elmuerte Posted June 19, 2007 THAT'S A LOT OF P-NAUTS!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nachimir Posted June 21, 2007 By far the most annoying thing on a mac is the lack of easy access to "¬¬" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wormsie Posted June 21, 2007 I thought I already posted here but: I was wrong! The legitimate version of Psychonauts does work afterall. Perhaps the one I dowloaded as a torrent (couldn't wait) was an older version or something. Or maybe the hackers just f'ucked it up. Besides, it was probably the American release, this is the European. Anyway, yay! And thanks, Doublefine and whoever did the conversion! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miffy495 Posted June 21, 2007 On a related note, the post on Tim's blog that P-nauts had gone out of print, and how that's really not so bad now that it's digitally everywhere spooked me a bit. So much so that I finally ordered that signed Xbox copy I'd been meaning to buy since it got on the BC list. I have and have beaten a PC copy, but this is signed, and I probably wouldn't have had another chance to grab it. I believe the out of print thing only applies to the NTSC version though, so most of you shouldn't need to worry about it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wormsie Posted June 22, 2007 Psychonauts really is a lot of fun. "TV..." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nsps Posted June 26, 2007 On a related note, the post on Tim's blog that P-nauts had gone out of print, and how that's really not so bad now that it's digitally everywhere spooked me a bit. So much so that I finally ordered that signed Xbox copy I'd been meaning to buy since it got on the BC list. I have and have beaten a PC copy, but this is signed, and I probably wouldn't have had another chance to grab it.I believe the out of print thing only applies to the NTSC version though, so most of you shouldn't need to worry about it. I had the same reaction when I read that post (I only have the PC copy), but since I don't actually have an Xbox or PS2, I didn't actually buy a copy yet. My younger cousins have a PS2, so maybe I'll get them a copy, and an Xbox version to play at my friend's house... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lobotomy42 Posted July 10, 2007 Bah. Linux rules. GUIs drool. Except for games. I need me my graphics in games... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elmuerte Posted July 10, 2007 I need me my graphics in games... no you don't Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nappi Posted July 10, 2007 By far the most annoying thing on a mac is the lack of easy access to "¬¬" Just bought myself a macbook pro. The only thing that annoys me right now is that I have to learn all the hotkeys (for commands and special characters) again. For example, when adding contacts to the address book I pressed the wrong hotkey every fucking time I tried to type @. This caused the program to quit the edit mode and only show the card. Quicksilver on the other hand is pure genious! Couldn't live without it (now that I know it exists). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nachimir Posted July 11, 2007 Quicksilver is awesome. I find myself really wanting it in Ubuntu and Windows. But oh god, don't get me started on hotkeys, especially hash and screen capture ones. I found a mac tutorial about them written in that really smug "macs are great" kind of way that started a sentence about the byzantine key combos with something like "It's as simple as just..." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ysbreker Posted July 12, 2007 Isn't quicksilver something like colibri? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wormsie Posted July 13, 2007 The hotkeys were the least of my worries and I learned them surprisingly quickly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wormsie Posted September 15, 2007 I found Quicksilver totally uninspiring. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
