toblix

Metal Gear Solid 3: Subsistence

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What the fuck? Is this a game for a hidden club of superbeings? I'm trying to get past the first guy, but the controls are so fucking intricate and I always end up slitting his throat. Is the whole game based around this running around in the fucking jungle with the camera too close bullshit? I hear this game has received awesome scores and is hailed for being so great. How come?

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Yeah, the controls can take a bit of getting used to, but once you do they're awsome.

You could always try setting the camera to the original snake-eater mode - the chase cam was introduced in subsistance.

Most of the controls in the game are pressure sensitive, so if you press too hard when you capture a guy you will indeed slit his throat. This can also catch you when training a gun on someone... press too hard and you can fire by accident. I loved the tension in this though, it gives the feeling of actually resting your finger on a hair trigger.

But you could always just crawl past him - it is a stealth game you know :) There is plenty of variety within that though, if you want to you can go in guns blazing (although your life expectancy drops dramatically if you do that).

edit: whatever you do keep playing through the initial frustration, because it really is an amazing game.

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Dan and I were talking about it only last night, actually. I once played the start, but got frustrated quickly and gave up. But I've heard such amazing things about it since then... really excellent things that are such amazing game design ideas... that I really want to play it, get over the frustration of learning how to play and... yeah.

But I won't spoil the good parts for you, like everybody else did for me...

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I really want to like this game, but it keeps frustrating me! It's a game about sneaking around, not being seen, right? You know, like Splinter Cell does so well?

Well, why in the fuck is the camera so terrible? I've heard words like "improvement" being applied to the camera system. Improvement over what, a black screen? It's not possible to remain unseen when you can't see shit yourself! Only if I stand in the middle of an open plaza does the camera allow me to pan around and see what's going on.

There's usually three or four guards patrolling, and there's no way of knowing where even one of them is standing at a given point because the camera is either showing grass (if I'm hiding in grass, which seems like a smart thing to be doing) or a wall (if I'm against a wall).

I haven't gotten through a single little zone without being hunted down and killed by every guard in the game. I'm looking around (as best as I can), trying to see if there are guards around... no? Okay, I'll just step over t-- "Hey, what was that?!", and then it's game over. That's not fun sneaking action, it's terrible fucking shitty camera being spotted action. Is there a zoom button I'm accidentally hitting or what?

Why does anyone say this is a good game?

And the wall-hugging... what a fucking joke. Either he's standing still, or suddenly he jumps out and runs frantically for a split second. Of course, that's enough time for one of the off-camera guards to come investigating. Fucking cunt game piece of shit, but also it looks like it could be fun if it didn't suck so hard.

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Did you try changing the camera mode like I suggested?

And yeah I never got to like the wall-hugging. The trick to this game is using camouflage to hide in plain sight. When you're in the tall grass you can use both shoulder buttons to poke your head up above it and then FP mode to look around.

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Fucking cunt game piece of shit, but also it looks like it could be fun if it didn't suck so hard.

Hahahahaha, that's exactly how I felt about it when I tried to play it...

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This is difficult to put subtly, but I think you're just a bit shit at it -- excusable for anyone playing MGS for the first time, let alone the third. I personally found the controls and camera alike in Snake Eater really good, and never really had difficulty getting past most soldiers and taking them out silently to boot.

It does take some getting used to the general MGS style of play though, which is to move forwards very cautiously and make use of your radar/person sensors/etc. In addition, walk or stalk whenever possible. Yeah, you can't see very well when you're crawling through bushes and stuff, but that's pretty much how it'd be if you were trying to crawl through thick grass without making any noise for real.

Be aware that you're not meant to always rely on stealth though, even if it's encouraged. You're a soldier, so if an enemy does catch you you need to act quickly and fuck him over. You can shoot off his radio (first-person gun), try to judo-slam him (circle+direction when in proximity), punch his face in (tap circle), or just run like a mother fucker into a tree or something before he calls backup.

Also note that if an enemy sees you and the yellow/red alert comes up, it won't actually affect other enemies in the area unless they either see/hear it themselves or the guy uses his radio. Don't be afraid to wanker him before he can get backup; if you're not doing this then you're probably making it a bit too hard for yourself.

The game has an incredible amount of depth and ways to approach each area, but it does take a while to actually realise a lot of things. I'm actually enjoying my second play through a lot more than my first as I know now all the tricks of the trade like luring them around with food and then throwing a poisonous snake on them or something. :D

I didn't even realise you could do the judo floor slam thing until like the last part of the game. :(

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Well I mean, all that or you could just not like the game. I personally love the gameplay (to the extent of replaying all three MGS games in this past month) and lots of others obviously do too, so maybe it's a marmite type thing.

Edit: Going off your posts I'm not entirely sure if you're using the improved camera or not. The improved camera is like your Mario Sunshine or Wind Waker camera, which is more than adequate. The old style one is where it's just fixed roughly above you. If you still hate the former then I really dunno what to say. You change them by pressing the right analogue stick.

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Well, I loved MGS2, but I don't remember that one being close to this impossible.

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This is difficult to put subtly, but I think you're just a bit shit at it...

"You just need to practice a little more and get used to the controls"

:shifty:

ahem

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Okay Yufster, your people skills are better than mine. ;~

Anyway, I'm not sure toblix, I didn't really find MGS3 significantly harder than MGS2 -- in fact, I found it harder to fight the enemy once spotted in Twin Snakes/MGS2 than in MGS3 due to lack of hidey holes. If you loved MGS2 then you should really be enjoying MGS3, which makes me think there might be something you're missing somewhere that's making your life a lot harder than it ought to be.

I can't really imagine what it could be though other than either not making use of the three enemy detection things you have in your inventory or not changing the camera mode (you can do this in the options too, incidentally).

I must admit I do play through MGS3 at a slower pace and spend more time scoping areas out with the binoculars, but it really doesn't really make it excessively hard to get through. Heck, I can even fight my way out of enemy chase-downs pretty well, at least for long enough to hide (thank god for that judo slam).

I don't know, all I can suggest is trying to stick with it and seeing if it 'clicks'. I loved it so much this is almost like something saying "Grim Fandango is shit" or something to me. ;(

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I'd love to comment on the camera, but can't due to Sony's utter incompetence. Here's the story in short:

  • See offer for PS3 with trade-ins.
  • Trade in MGS3 among others.
  • Get PS3, see that BC-list covers many versions of MGS3, including Subsistence.
  • Blissfully buy Subsistence.
  • Discover that all versions of Subsistence aren't covered by BC.

Fuck. Seeing as how they've got the listed version of Subsistence running with a perfect three star rating, it's extra frustrating. It'd surely work, if they would just let the disc start spinning.

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If it helps, I'm currently feeling the same way with Jet Set Radio Future on Xbox 360. The version I have happens to be from some old pack-in that MS did with the original Xbox. It has both JSRF and Sega GT 2002 on the same disk. Both of these games are on the BC list for 360, but this specific disk will not run as MS apparently hadn't prepared for people to try to play this version. :frusty:

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Yeah, that sucks too. You'd think both companies would have hired at least one person who's aware that there are in fact multiple releases for many games. Adding that one extra serial number to the list can't be too much work, can it? :shifty:

I'm sure Microsoft will get to your problem sooner or later but I'm more wary of Sony and their apparent lack of continued effort in this matter. I'm not exactly counting on getting to play Subsistence, ever.

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I'm going to go ahead and bump this awesome Toblix complains thread to give my thoughts upon beating the game.

I haven't actually fully finished the game yet, but nothing new is going to happen, I just have to beat it 3 more times to unlock all Demo Theatre movies, which might be annoying, but I'll be skipping all cutscenes and running through with the invisibility camo and infinite bullets facepaint.

As far as Metal Gears go, I am incredibly wowed at the story in this one. After the major disaster of most of MGS2, maybe my expectations are much lower, but this has got to be one of the best video game stories I've ever experienced. At least it must be up there with the top 10. As Thunderpeel said in another thread on this game,

there wasn't a bunch of doublecrossing one-upsmanship that just got out of hand, suprisingly, even though it is a Metal Gear staple. I was almost disappointed to find out no one double crossed anyone until the very end, not even counting Ocelot, who obviously was going to be up to something.

I think there were almost no instances of incredibly awkward voice acting this time or polygon characters running around silly except for maybe the kissing scenes. 3D people kissing always looks terrible so I guess it's expected from the medium for me. Ocelot's acting was distinct and hilarious, I almost hate that I found him the one of the most uninteresting characters the last two games. The torture scene was just shocking and amazingly well done and tense. The Fury fight was just absolutely creeping me out (maybe because it reminds me of reoccuring nightmares taking place in corridors and parking garages). I know there was one scene I found to be completely mediocre and bordering on Otacon crying over his sister, but it was brief and now I've completely forgot. I guess I will update when I remember.

It's also nice that this is the first Metal Gear game where most of the storyline is not given through codec. Instead codec was here more for me to have fun and learn about plant life and animals, which is probably way more thrilling to me than it should be.

Also the level of graphics here are insane, even though it's on PS2. Besides being impressed with what has been done with the system it's on, the character models are all solid and realistic but not in a creepy way. The major ball dropping is just the awful lip synching, but other than that, I feel like there was a very specific look displayed with the 3D models in this Metal Gear that were all slightly exaggerated in a way that dodged the uncanny valley and offered distinct looking characters. The only real jarring parts were everyone's fat polygon hands and the lower poly stuff for people's bodies. The backgrounds were all just gorgeous. I felt like I was camping playing this game almost all the time.

But since I guess I'm not talking about a movie here, in reference to the gameplay and the gameplay issues in this thread, I completely understand. I really was not ready for this game even though I have played the other two 3D installments to a ridiculous amount of completion. What happened here is somehow the sections where defeating the guards became intensely difficult while things like bossfights or special tasks became incredibly easy. I had already learned all the tricks to be the puppetmaster of all the guards in corridors and where the best place to hide was, but it's like all of this was a useless skillset in the game series until much later on near the end.

It's really just the open areas and the lack of spots that are definite to hide in. Also I noticed in this game that the guards have become double as aggressive, regularly calling in reinforcements for almost any insignificant reason. They also seemed much sharper and to have a more realistic eyesight, which is good if you want to show off the realism of your game engine, but bad if you want to just play a damn game. I had finished the whole thing just on normal mode.

Maybe part of the problem is the way I play this series. I made things more difficult on myself trying to isolate and interrogate guards. Interrogation can also lead to you getting your maps filled with enemy markers though, which makes the game much easier. But part of the problem with wanting to interrogate everyone is while it's similar to gathering all dog tags in the last two games in terms of strategy, it also takes much longer. For dog tags, I'd often tranq someone while they were shaking their tag off and then run. Can't do that here.

Also I tend to restart the game anytime I'm caught on certain scenes just because all Metal Gear games are just a clusterfuck spiral into death (unless you are well prepared or have a safe zone where alerts turn off) whenever you are spotted. I found myself restarting almost constantly because in this game the only places to hide were in grass or trees, both of which I'd be spotted everytime if the enemy were searching. No more lockers.

One thing that made collecting dog tags in MGS2 much easier is that on screens with multiple enemies I could just put everyone to sleep and use the coolant spray to wake up whoever I needed, basically giving me full control of every room. In Snake Eater, I did not realize until looking this up 2/3rds through the game that I could have had a much easier time had I known I could wake guards up by kicking them in the head if needed. So with this knowledge, I get the feeling I could have done a lot better.

The learning curve on MGS3 is high, I think, once you get to any rooms with guards. The first time arriving in the open area with the building was just an absolute nightmare for me. I'm also shit at aiming in first person with almost any game, so extreme precision is trial and error for me. Part of the problem with the learning curve is CQC. You have to figure out when to hold to button to get any enemy first, then trying to execute any moves in this state is an extreme bitch at first.

Part of the problem is that so much of CQC lies on pressure sensitivity of the buttons. I hate crap like that. I tend to just press something and press it hard. The grenades are linked to how hard you press the button to throw in Metal Gear Solid games, and so I really don't use grenades unless I have to. The tiptoe and corner peek trick are also pressure sensitive, so I avoid those as well. Not slitting a guys through upon initiating CQC depends how hard you press the circle button. I think this was a grave mistake to make on something so essential to the game, since I just tended to kill people on accident. Then I started overcompensating and pressing lighter, which brought on a new issue of me letting guards go when I had no intention of doing so, getting me caught.

I really hope this is improved in further games using CQC, because this was a complete control failure in my opinion. Eventually I got used to the sweet spot, but I can't imagine most people like putting up with some crap where how hard you press a button is measured (I didn't even know controllers knew that anyway until Metal Gear Solid games!). I think the concepts of taping or holding a button on a game controller should be about as in depth as necessary.

So all of that said, the difficulty of the game becomes easier nearer to the end because of the combination of getting used to dealing with open areas with enemies as well as the areas becoming less open as the game goes on. Add to that that you can earn very useful camouflage later in the game from searching around or from tranq killing bosses. If that's not enough, getting the sleep gas cigarette shooter halfway through the game makes a simple way to deal with any desperate situation. At some points there, alerts were getting so frustrating that when 6 enemies stormed in the room, I ran in circles like a dork spraying cigarette gas in people's faces. Incredibly dumb but incredibly effective.

Also I should mention the boss fight with The End. I loved that old man. He had no intention of killing me, but would tranquilize me. I get the feeling it was annoying how long this boss fight could last for some, but I found myself really enjoying the intense but plodding nature of finding a sniper in a big field and sneaking around his back over and over. All sniper fights in Metal Gear games before have been by the books crap where you just aim well in first person view, but this one here gives you many options as well as adding a great deal of strategy. Not punishing you with death of any sort is very good on this part, allowing you to finish at your own pace.

I was a bit dumbfounded as I had the feeling searching for animals, eating them, and watching your stamina was going to be the most difficult part of this game, as back in 2005 when it was released, that's all I remember people bitching about. To my surprise, this had the least amount to do with the difficulty and just sort of added a bunch of fun hunting stuff to the game similar to Beyond Good and Evil's photographing all the creatures (just not killing and eating everything).

I have the 3 disc Subsistence version of this that I paid way too much for at a time when I had more money, but I had already beat Metal Gear 1 and 2 on this earlier last year. The Snake Vs. Monkey mode was hilarious fun and I'm nearly done with that duel stuff. I think the rest is just watching extra cutscenes on the second disc as well as the third disc is just the game edited into a 3 hour movie. That should be interesting enough to see exactly how they do that without it coming off as idiotic. I do hope that part will be full widescreen, as I'm kind of sick of Metal Gear Solid games taking place in a tiny widescreen window in a 480i full screen window.

Edited by syntheticgerbil

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Totally agree with most of this. The open area moments were just beyond difficult and not at all fun. (I ended up reloading so many times in order to get through them with some semblance of respectability.) I think it may have had to do with my playing style, though. I think the game wanted you to sneak past guards, not take them out, IIRC. Whereas my instincts was to "clear" the area before moving on.

Whatever it was, it was vastly different to the previous games, and extraordinarily difficult.

People seemed to go on a lot about how "realistic" MGS 3 was, and while it may have been true regarding the gameplay mechanics, I felt the story and characters were way more two-dimensional and cartoony than ever before. In that respect I'd say it was the least realistic of the MGS series.

I guess the whole thing was a nod and a wink to 60s spy/action hero stuff (Bond and comic book super-villains -- a weird mixture), but it was certainly a difficult beast to like. MGS 2 remains my favourite, although I'd love to get "into" MGS 3 at some point, because I'm sure there's a great game in there that I just couldn't find.

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I played a little of MGS3, then decided it wasn't worth it and watched it as a film instead. To be honest, I think it probably works just as well as one, if not better at times.

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I've posted way too much about MGS3 over the years but what the hell.

Gerbil, really glad you enjoyed it. I'm sorry the control scheme didn't completely work for you (and others). As I've said before, I too struggled with it for ages and then it finally 'clicked' and it became one of the most intuitive and flexible control schemes I have ever used - the type where thought transfers into action and everything you do becomes cool. It saddens me that it can't work that way for everyone. yeah, it's much more about about stealth and realism.

It's weird, I used to be in the army cadets... the camouflage and stealth strategies they taught me worked so well when I applied them to this game... it's the closest I think anyone has ever come to making a 'soldier simulation' game in the same way that we consider 'flight simulation' etc.

I too thought the story was the best of the MGS series - but then it was the first one I experienced in full. Still, after playing through the entire series multiple times I agree with your analysis here - it is still the most heartfelt and grounded of the writing.

Same goes for the game dfesign. The End is one of the finest and most original bosses ever, if only for the kind of atmosphere it invokes (did you know that if you spend over a week of real time trying to beat him, he will die of old age?).

Such a great game. One of, if not The, top of my games of all time.

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Whereas my instincts was to "clear" the area before moving on.

Yeah, that was my style of playing as well for the previous games, all the way down to the MSX ones. To me, playing that way is probably treating Metal Gear solid more like an adventure game player maybe? I feel like I can't relax and explore anything until everyone is sleeping and I can have a look around. The game play has also encouraged this in the past with hidden items that end up as greatly helpful as well as encouraging exploration with all the little things to try and hidden stuff in areas.

MGS3 did have a few places in the large open jungle where you could clear out little pockets of the area as a whole and you'd have to move on before the guard in the area woke up, but figuring out that certain guards would never see eachother in some of the more expansive areas was just as much work in itself sometimes.

I guess the whole thing was a nod and a wink to 60s spy/action hero stuff (Bond and comic book super-villains -- a weird mixture), but it was certainly a difficult beast to like. MGS 2 remains my favourite, although I'd love to get "into" MGS 3 at some point, because I'm sure there's a great game in there that I just couldn't find.

Honestly, I've really never understood the comparisons Metal Gear keeps putting in it's own games to James Bond. They don't seem similar enough to me outside of the rag tag villians and Snake being a spy that wears a tuxedo upon completing the game. I honestly lose interest in any military themed anything, but for whatever reason Metal Gear has held my interest. I think the supernatural stuff as well as the comic book style villians is a part of it, even though I'm not at all into the comics that have tons of villians like that. It could possibly be because they aren't wearing tights and Metal Gear is much more grounded outside of the robots and powers. I do like robots though...

Gerbil, really glad you enjoyed it. I'm sorry the control scheme didn't completely work for you (and others). As I've said before, I too struggled with it for ages and then it finally 'clicked' and it became one of the most intuitive and flexible control schemes I have ever used - the type where thought transfers into action and everything you do becomes cool. It saddens me that it can't work that way for everyone. yeah, it's much more about about stealth and realism.

It's weird, I used to be in the army cadets... the camouflage and stealth strategies they taught me worked so well when I applied them to this game... it's the closest I think anyone has ever come to making a 'soldier simulation' game in the same way that we consider 'flight simulation' etc.

Yeah I remember those posts where you were talking about how the game matched your own experiences as a cadet, which is one of the things that initially got me interested in this series years ago. I'm really not cut out to be a soldier of any type so maybe that's it?

That said, this game made me feel more awesome when I did get through an area successfully without alert or used the camo wisely (although Big Boss constantly changing his clothes seems incredibly unrealistic and wacky). The controls did click for me, but I feel like it was just way too late to appreciate them, which is unfortunate.

I think in my post before I was a bit too negative in reference to the CQC, because it was a good idea and made directly interacting with soliders much more intuitive and interesting. I just had found the way it was implemented with the pressure sensitivity to be the failure as it took a while to just get used to the controls so that you could follow through on your intentions within the game.

Same goes for the game design. The End is one of the finest and most original bosses ever, if only for the kind of atmosphere it invokes (did you know that if you spend over a week of real time trying to beat him, he will die of old age?).

Yeah, I really can't get over how amazing this boss fight is. I was completely surprised to find out that it would not be done in five minutes time like most. It was also strange there was no music added for tension during the fight even though it became very intense on it's own having to sneak through the cheerful ambient noise of forest.

I also have to try that old age thing to unlock a cutscene on the the next playthrough. I'll probably see if I can do that thing where I kill him ahead of time as well on another time.

Also, as a side note, does anyone know if there is any making of material on the environment when fighting The Boss? I have absolutely no fucking clue how they made the PS2 deal with those tons of flowers that moved dynamically along with the movements of the characters. There was also petals fluttering about at the same time and no slowdown whatsoever.

I'm guessing maybe the flowers changed from 3D models to planes depending on where you were, but I have no clue. My only idea of this is because this is the only portion of the game where you are no longer allowed to use the Subsistence 3D camera, so maybe having it locked prevents the user from changing the view to create atrocious slowdown?

If you play this area in Snake Vs. Monkey, it cannot handle all of those apes and the whole level lags pretty bad.

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So I finally re-played this game thanks to the new HD collection.

Fuck me, what an awesome game. I have no idea why I found it so difficult before. I actually found it absurdly easy this time around. When I last played it on the PS2 it was right off the back of playing MGS2. The sudden openness of the areas freaked me out. The totally different play style confused me. The intricate food, camo, and health system overwhelmed me.

This time around it all came so easy that I have to wonder why I struggled so much. I even played through it on Extra Easy on the PS2 and... still found it hard. This time I played through on Normal and barely struggled. I even did a playthrough with no kills or alerts for fun.

Here's a tip for anyone needing help: B+Direction is your friend. Or Circle+Direction on the PlayStation. That's all the CQC you need to know. The rest is just window dressing.

Not being overwhelmed this time around meant I could enjoy the story... And what a story! I think I cared more about these characters than I've ever cared about any characters before in any game. The fact that you were playing the baddie from the other games when he was a goodie was a stroke of genius.

Now I just wish they'd do a Revolver Ocelot game.

Anyway, in all, I'm a total convert. I LOVE this game. It's a masterpiece by my standards.

Edited by ThunderPeel2001

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Awesome, I'm glad you enjoyed it this time. It seems like so many people I've talked to recently quit the game within the first few hours because of the learning curve and the bare bones way you start out. I think I definitely complained about it in another thread before I finished it and things definitely changed after the first third of the game.

Fuck me, what an awesome game. I have no idea why I found it so difficult before. I actually found it absurdly easy this time around. When I last played it on the PS2 it was right off the back of playing MGS2. The sudden openness of the areas freaked me out. The totally different play style confused me. The intricate food, camo, and health system overwhelmed me.

I'm curious, you were playing Subsistence before right? The classic MGS camera doesn't work for open areas.

Also I found the game got much easier as I earned better camo and the areas became even more open since I could really disappear from far away. If I did get noticed in the later parts of the game, I could usually make a run for it without getting an alert.

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Yep, it was Subsistence.

I don't know why I found it so hard. I don't think there's a steep learning curve or anything. I guess it's just learning what you can get away with and what you can't.

Running behind a guard and then CQC slamming them to the ground is a piece of piss. The biggest problems comes if you start trying to kill the guards -- it's much easier to run behind them, CQC slam them, or tranq them. Despite the huge amount of lethal weaponry in the game, it really works against you if you try to use them.

Note to anyone thinking of giving it another go, the old camera system (which can be quickly switched between using PS3 R3 or XBox RS) is sometimes better for seeing baddies. The Subsistence camera is pretty cool, but there's nothing wrong with the original camera, I don't think.

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Yeah I agree that it's well worth switching between the two modes. For outdoor areas it's definitely preferable to have the free-roaming camera, but indoor sections tend to look and play better with the traditional camera — which is appropriate as these sections are themselves reminiscent of past MGS games.

I highly recommend playing through MGS3 and MG4 on 'Extreme' at some point. It really turns up the necessity to be stealthy, and gives the enemies far superior vision and hearing. The amount of tension I experienced sometimes was enough to give me a heart attack and I had to spend ages planning out how to approach each area.

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Also, I am massively looking forward to playing the HD re-release of this. However I'm hanging on and hoping to God there's a HD re-release of

on the Wii-U first. :tup::tup::tup::tup::tup:

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