I wonder how Telltale is doing

[Thyroid]

I hope Telltale Games are doing fine, but there's no way to tell. I was wondering if anyone knew a way that would help me know?

Adventure gamers are total jackasses (I wrote about it), but in the case of Sam 'n' Max 2's they're also major jackasses for not buying the game because its lack of budget meant they couldn't higher the original voice actors, so it "wasn't as good."

[brkl]

Reactions at AdventureGamers.com seem to be overwhelmingly positive.

[Marek]

From what I understand enough people are buying Sam & Max and Telltale are doing fine. But maybe Doug, Jake, or Emily can tell you more given that they actually work there.

There's a little kernel of truth to your rant (there was a lot of opposition to 3D, for a time) but I disagree that this has anything to do with the current state of the genre or the current state of its followers and in fact I disagree with your characterizations of both. Incidentally, adventure games are the topic of our next podcast, so maybe I shouldn't post too much in this thread.

[vimes]

They are doing fine, but they can't/ don't want to release the numbers for some obscure reasons.

[Marek]

What do you mean? It's common industry practice not to release such numbers.

[MrChlorophyll]

Yes, but it's an obscure common industry practice.

[Jake]

I hope Telltale Games are doing fine, but there's no way to tell. I was wondering if anyone knew a way that would help me know?

Adventure gamers are total jackasses (I wrote about it), but in the case of Sam 'n' Max 2's they're also major jackasses for not buying the game because its lack of budget meant they couldn't higher the original voice actors, so it "wasn't as good."

Telltale's doing fine. The games are doing well and everyone is happy. In the past eight months, since right around the time the second Bone game came out, the company has gone from around 17 people to 30 and is still growing. Sam & Max episodes are coming out on schedule, and the first one has been very well reviewed (probably better reviewed than most people both at Telltale and in the general public were expecting).

I haven't seen that many adventure gamers not buying the game because it's not 2D or because it's not traditional. If you set aside the 2D/3D issue, Telltale's Sam & Max games are more traditional than most any major remotely-mainstream commercial adventure game in a while. It's point and click, focused almost entirely on dialogue, inventory, and environment-manipulation puzzles, which isn't the case at all for Dreamfall, Fahrenheit, or even Broken Sword 3 or 4, all of which include combat, stealth, twitch-timing puzzles, and the occasional crazy gesture-based input. Compared to all the crazy stuff the designers of those games were trying to inject into the adventure game formula to make it more hip and up to date, Telltale's games are decidedly retro.

When Sam & Max Freelance Police was announced by LucasArts in 2003 there were a lot of people still whining about 2D v 3D, but at least as far as I can tell, by the time Telltale got around to announcing their Sam & Max game in 2005, most adventure game fans who were remotely interested in Sam & Max to begin with had seen Fahrenheit, had possibly played Broken Sword 3, and were interested in Dreamfall, so a high profile adventure game being wholly 3D didn't seem so foreign. At least in my opinion.

The thing that breaks my heart about die-hard adventure fans is their lust for puzzles overtaking their desire to meet interesting characters, explore new worlds, and take part in an interesting and atmospheric story. Back in the day I wrote a humongously long bloated thing about it in this thread on the Adventure Gamers forums (specific post in question: here). I always liked adventure games because they had characters and stories unlike any other in the entirety of gaming, but still offered challenges and interactivity that I couldn't get from a more passive medium like a book, comic, or film. The thing is, at least for the vocal uber-hardcore adventure gamers, after you play 80000 adventure games, the puzzle obstacles that used to seem challenging and rewarding start to become instinctual - a seasoned adventure gamer can just *solve* them... at least the ones that aren't totally inane and nonsensical. I think adventure gamers have sort of by and large become the extreme bondage and rape fetishists of the gaming world: The old stuff that used to bring them such joy doesn't do it for them anymore, but what they want now is just not at all healthy or appropriate.

It's tough when you want to make a game full of jokes that tells an amusing story, when theres a voice constantly whispering in your ear (or yelling on your forum) to break out the hedge mazes, obscure levers, sliders and huge whirling metal gears and beat them to within an inch of their lives because that's what they like these days. Unhealthy, and my parents just wouldn't get it.

Side note: The "Purist" forum signature disease isn't actually present on Adventure Gamers' forum. That forum group, compared to most dedicated AG communities, can on rare occasion be fairly progressive and non-retarded. You can find a bevvy of "Purist" sigs on the Just Adventure forum, and maybe some on GameBoomers, but I don't really know since I don't visit them that often.

They are doing fine, but they can't/ don't want to release the numbers for some obscure reasons.

Name one privately held business - or even to narrow it down, one game company - which releases sales numbers. There aren't any, because it's a stupid thing to give out unless you have to because you have public shareholders. NPD data doesn't count - that comes from retailers, not publishers. Also "We sold a million copies!" doesn't count either - that's a press release celebrating a sales landmark, not routine releases of sales numbers.

Would you want your competition tracking how well you're doing exactly? If you have numbers showing what your company is doing in any given month you could, for instance, inadvertently make people assume that you're going down the shitter, causing your fans and potential investors to lose faith in your company or the type of product you make, or maybe your numbers will show that your company doing amazingly well, causing more people to start competing with you or worse, flat out rip you off. It's just not a good idea. I know Telltale is in fairly close communications with their customers and their audience, but there is a line where you have to keep some stuff private.

[vimes]

First, let me just say, I don't give a shit about the numbers but I do find interesting to see how well or how bad a game I like and which isn't a given blockbuster is doing.

That being said,I don't really see the point of this need of secrecy that the game industry seems to have since a certain era during which most game projects were doomed to not raise money, because, well, they were just not managed properly. Here's why :

1 - the movie and the TV industry is doing very well with box offices, figures that nearly anyone can consult with two or three weeks delay. There are clones, but with such development times (quite equivalent to those of games), they always arrive late.

2 - The reasons you're giving are VERY dangerous for Telltale's image. You fear COMPETITION ?! What is that supposed to say about your confidence in your products ? What does it say about your respect for the players ... you're willing to do a good job, but you won't find acceptable to see them going to other products because they got episode based aventure games right or better than you?! Come on! In your niche, people just won't buy stuff because it ressembles another product, they will buy a game if it's good enough and better than a competing game. And then your games' quality will be at fault, not the fact that you released your figures.

Of course, that's not what you think, but what you say is implying it quite strongly.

3 - What if it raises competition ? Isn't that a good thing ? If there's more products, people will talk more about the project that launched this trend... they will systematically come back to it in order to judge its contenders and value their content. Then, in all fairness, if your game is good, it will attract more attention...

4 - I can't count the numbers of development studios ( in adventure games or not) which died saying to their terminal breath " Doing Good.. can't ... release... numbers ... arg". A game company not willing to release how good they are selling ? That's bad , bad omen to my ears.

Anyway, most people don't even ask you for a weekly report ( they just don't care), but to release figures every other quarter.... frankly, it's very ridiculous to see PR people saying "Ahhh, it's doing well but, you know, we can't give you precise numbers" it makes them look ignorant... talking about the studios internal growth like you did could be a better answer.

[Jake]

Thanks for the advice.

[vimes]

Err, now I feel, I'm not really in a position to give advice soooo.... ?

(By the way, I can't find Telltale's feedback form/page as promised in the order mail. The given link only points to some newsletter submission... any clue, anyone ?)

[numble]

What about the fear of being ripped off?

A lot of people are willing to pirate Microsoft products because they say, "Look at how much money Microsoft already makes! It's not a big deal that they lose this one sale."

On the other hand, people are willing to support companies that appear to be small and independent startups. If Telltale released figures that show that they're already making tons and tons of money, people will say "Well, look at that. They don't need my 9 bucks."

Moreover, Telltale's relationship to Gametap makes it even more finicky. What if Telltale revealed that Gametap gave them enough money to cover all development costs? It's not a stretch of the imagination for somebody to look at that and say, "I guess they don't really need my 9 bucks after all, and I can pirate away."

[Jake]

Err, now I feel, I'm not really in a position to give advice soooo.... ?

(By the way, I can't find Telltale's feedback form/page as promised in the order mail. The given link only points to some newsletter submission... any clue, anyone ?)

sorry, for some reason the feedback address was moved to http://www.telltalegames.com/company/contactus

And I was being snarky because you were being condescending.

[Mel]

The thing that breaks my heart about die-hard adventure fans is their lust for puzzles overtaking their desire to meet interesting characters, explore new worlds, and take part in an interesting and atmospheric story. Back in the day I wrote a humongously long bloated thing about it in this thread on the Adventure Gamers forums (specific post in question: here). I always liked adventure games because they had characters and stories unlike any other in the entirety of gaming, but still offered challenges and interactivity that I couldn't get from a more passive medium like a book, comic, or film. The thing is, at least for the vocal uber-hardcore adventure gamers, after you play 80000 adventure games, the puzzle obstacles that used to seem challenging and rewarding start to become instinctual - a seasoned adventure gamer can just *solve* them... at least the ones that aren't totally inane and nonsensical. I think adventure gamers have sort of by and large become the extreme bondage and rape fetishists of the gaming world: The old stuff that used to bring them such joy doesn't do it for them anymore, but what they want now is just not at all healthy or appropriate.

It's tough when you want to make a game full of jokes that tells an amusing story, when theres a voice constantly whispering in your ear (or yelling on your forum) to break out the hedge mazes, obscure levers, sliders and huge whirling metal gears and beat them to within an inch of their lives because that's what they like these days. Unhealthy, and my parents just wouldn't get it.

I agree with you 5000%!! Even though the game wasn't as difficult as others they have played, I've heard many hardcore adventure gamers who have adored the game. It excites me to also hear of people who don't typically play AGs who have had massive fun with Culture Shock and finished it.

Edit: Also, I hear so many people on forums who want puzzles that force them to 'think outside of the box' and I wonder how many people actually find that fun?

Side note: The "Purist" forum signature disease isn't actually present on Adventure Gamers' forum. That forum group, compared to most dedicated AG communities, can on rare occasion be fairly progressive and non-retarded. You can find a bevvy of "Purist" sigs on the Just Adventure forum, and maybe some on GameBoomers, but I don't really know since I don't visit them that often.

The biggest complaints I have seen on JA (I've never visited GameBoomers) is the download/episodic nature of the game. There are a few people who embrace it but many want a full game and that physical CD (which they now know they can get but they are waiting until they're all out until they buy it.) Interestingly, Randy admonished those people a bit (seventh post down) saying that they were shooting themselves in the foot by not supporting great AGs because they weren't in a form they wanted.

btw, I'm Melanie68 over at AG.

[vimes]

sorry, for some reason the feedback address was moved to http://www.telltalegames.com/company/contactus

OK, I don't know why, but I was thinking there would be some kind of form for each game/series.

And I was being snarky because you were being condescending.

Fair enough. It wasn't supposed to be condescending, but you made me realized it did got out that way.

[elmuerte]

Adventure gamers are total jackasses (I wrote about it), but in the case of Sam 'n' Max 2's they're also major jackasses for not buying the game because its lack of budget meant they couldn't higher the original voice actors, so it "wasn't as good."

Really? that's sort of sad. There are much better reasons not to buy Sam & Max 2. Like that the game is way to easy, but that appears to be a common issue with 3D adventure games. Or the episode being awefully short.

I don't mind 3D in adventure games, but it appears that they have a hard time to get it right. Either the games are dumbed down a lot making it no fun at all (like Dreamfall) or they add rediculous action elements (like Dreamfall and Fahrenheit (GET READY!!!!)). Or the 3D implementation is just god awefull with as only goal to annoy the hell out of players (like Simon 3D). But other games like the Broken Sword 3, Monkey Island 4, The Longest Journey, Syberia (although the puzzles were not very challenging) were simply good.

Granted, I'm not a die hard Adventure gamer, I prefer the more action oriented adventure games, and companies are approaching that (sub)genre a bit more.

As for the episodic content stuff, I don't like it (not even in the Telltale approach). The wait is simply too long. As for downloading, don't mind that as much, but I do prefer to have games stored on a more permanent storage. Burned CD\DVDs age pretty quickly. Ofcourse this is a non issue when in 5 years I can still download my licensed copied of the game to replay it.

[miffy495]

The wait has been too damn long recently, but as long as Telltale keeps on schedual, I don't mind theirs so much. On that note, where the hell is SiN Episode 2? For what it was, the first was decent and I wouldn't mind seeing a bit more. At least we still hear things about HL Ep2 occasionally. SiN has dissappeared completely.

On the adventure subject, I've always kinda viewed the genre as like reading favorite books. Yeah, I've got MI2 almost memorized by now but I still replay it now and again. I've also got Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas almost memorized, and still reread it when I have nothing better to do. Same sort of thing. I don't mind challenging puzzles, but with adventure games I want a story that I'll want to replay a few times, even when I know exactly how to progress it.

[Tanukitsune]

This "hardcore extremist" thing isn't only happening in adventure games, there are other genres were people want the game to be so extremely complex and difficult that they drive away all but the most die-hard fans...

Space shooter for example, I can still beat the older ones, but the newer ones are near impossible for me! The same goes for most fighting games, I could beat most fighting games before (and once again, I can still beat the old ones), but some of the newer ones are just so hard I get my butt kicked on easy!

Frankly, Sam & Max: Culture Shock was the funniest and most enjoyable game I've played in AGES! And I certainly don't want the next game to be ruined but puzzles that are too hard. If any of the puzzles for the next game will have be solved by anything else but thinking "What would Sam & Max do?" I will be dissapointed.

[vimes]

I imagine there's a choice to be made between creating puzzles that fit well into the characters and the universe, whose outcome and realisation make you laugh and the puzzles that make the player feel smart and which provide him a sense of achievement through difficulty.

Currently, I'm more into the first type, because I like to experience good dialogs and a good story without having to be slown down by puzzles only remotely linked to the plot... but I kinda miss the nice balance some of the Myst games had : finding solution to puzzle at first obscure but to which the player would find meaning and context by observation and conjecture ... it was like being an archelologist!

I'm not aware of any games that manages to do that so well.

[General Fuzzy McBitty]

I like characters more than puzzles, but the puzzles should still exist.

Not like Dreamfall, which had a lot of character and a great story, but had so few puzzles that it didn't even feel like a game.

[Jake]

The wait has been too damn long recently,

You know Sam & Max Episode 2 was announced about 2 hours before you made that post?

[David]

As an aside, I had to help a card-carrying member of Mensa through pretty much every stage of Culture Shock. People who don't play a ton of adventure games don't often catch the familiar formula.

[miffy495]

You know Sam & Max Episode 2 was announced about 2 hours before you made that post?

Notice that afterwards I said that Telltale was doing it better than anyone else. The ultra long waits I was refering to are in the SiN and Half Life universes. I'm quite happy with the "once a month-ish" thing that TT has going on.

[Jake]

Please I included a smiley in my post, I wasn't berating you or something, just sayin'!

[miffy495]

No worries. I didn't take it that way in the first place. I'm not too concerned about TT's Sam & Max release and paying for individual episodes because I've already bought the Season Set. I just wait around a bit and suddenly one day there's Sam & Max waiting for me to play it. Then, in a few months, I get some CDs. I'm totally happy with that. Also with the way that you guys will ship me a CD for a Bone game when I buy it. You definitely have the best handle on episodic gaming that I've seen yet. Seriously though, now that that's out of the way, where's Bone Ep 3? I love the books and really wanna play the rest of the series.

[Moosferatu]

I believe they put the next episode of Bone on hold while they're trying to get the first season of S&M worked out, so it won't be coming out for a while. However, the updated versions of the first two games were just released.