ysbreker

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They totally pulled a Dollhouse last week! That came thoroughly out of the blue for me.

I wonder if Olivia is dead in that world. I vaguely seem to remember that her family had a thing where the women had a large likelyhood of dying in child birth? I had kind of assumed that that is what the Observer was referring to when he said that her death was unavoidable.

We'll see.

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I don't know why I continue to watch police/crime procedural shows when my knowledge of law basically invalidates half or more of what occurs in them. I started watching Flashpoint recently, and they're better at it then most, but it's a rare day even for them when they point out the fact that the guy who didn't harm anybody, but did take hostages and surrender is still going away for a decade or more.

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(I actually really want to see Salmon Fishing)

AVENGERS!

(I wouldn't mind seeing Salmon Fishing, but you should see Avengers now before everyone starts going on about it and ruins it for you with hype.)

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Fringe just got renewed for a final 13-episode season. :tup:

This season has been pretty fascinating. 3 episodes left.

That is great news! The series has really evolved as time has gone on.

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Fringe just got renewed for a final 13-episode season. :tup:

This season has been pretty fascinating. 3 episodes left.

:tup::tup::tup:

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They totally pulled a Dollhouse last week! That came thoroughly out of the blue for me.

I wonder if Olivia is dead in that world. I vaguely seem to remember that her family had a thing where the women had a large likelyhood of dying in child birth? I had kind of assumed that that is what the Observer was referring to when he said that her death was unavoidable.

We'll see.

I thought that was referring to

The Mr. X man, who appeared in the weird, cartoon dream world, who is yet to be revealed in the real world. He said, ominously, "I am the man who will kill you!"

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AVENGERS!

(I wouldn't mind seeing Salmon Fishing, but you should see Avengers now before everyone starts going on about it and ruins it for you with hype.)

I have friends who went to pre-screenings who have been raving for weeks. I'll be seeing it early next week, and expect nothing more than a fun action movie.

Contrary to the rest of the internet, I don't think Joss Whedon is /that/ special.

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They totally pulled a Dollhouse last week! That came thoroughly out of the blue for me.

I wonder if Olivia is dead in that world. I vaguely seem to remember that her family had a thing where the women had a large likelyhood of dying in child birth? I had kind of assumed that that is what the Observer was referring to when he said that her death was unavoidable.

We'll see.

I assumed it had something to do with

Walter's explanation to Astrid for why he left William Bell behind and just cut off his hand: "You remember what he did to Olivia. Even you can't be that compassionate."

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I really enjoyed Marvel Avengers Assemble, it's chock-full of great moments and well-defined characters, and Whedon's dialogue doesn't go too 'Buffy'. However, I did feel like the plot was rather messy and ill-defined, Whedon's fight scenes are well-choreographed but confusingly directed (see also the bar brawl in Serenity) and Loki never really gets off the ground as a credible threat. He's a poor man's Zod.

One thing that I realised afterwards was that

Loki's plan doesn't really make sense - he gets himself captured so that he can set an explosion off near Banner and make him Hulk out so that the Avengers will fall out and not be a problem? And that's it? It takes up half of the film and it doesn't even work! He just pisses them off and splits them up geographically. None of them is a selfish arsehole so they all show up to fight off the alien invasion whether they're irritated by each other or not.

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I wasn't bothered by that quite as much, because

I was just so happy already that Loki wasn't the poor villain he was in Thor, but an actually interesting bad guy with strings of his own being pulled (Thanos!), things at stake and more grown up as a bad guy than his earlier appearance as a whiney spoiled brat. I really enjoyed the Loki-goes-to-jail arc, because every time a movie takes such direct inspiration from The Dark Knight and has their villain allowing himself to be arrested to further his own goals, it has been pretty spectacular. I've seen the motif earlier in Dutch movie Quiz, and enjoyed it in The Avengers as well.

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Yeah, Loki was definitely better here than in Thor. But like you say, that trope has been done a lot more effectively many times before.

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One thing that I realised afterwards was that

Loki's plan doesn't really make sense - he gets himself captured so that he can set an explosion off near Banner and make him Hulk out so that the Avengers will fall out and not be a problem? And that's it? It takes up half of the film and it doesn't even work! He just pisses them off and splits them up geographically. None of them is a selfish arsehole so they all show up to fight off the alien invasion whether they're irritated by each other or not.

Nah, there's more to it than that. MAJOR SPOILERS AHEAD -- Do NOT read if you haven't seen the film!

His plan DOES work. It actually works perfectly. Loki wants to make a point. He wants to beat The Avengers in public because he wants to look great. He's a "full scale diva", as Stark calls him. He wants to be worshipped, he wants the public to fear him, he wants to show off. He's a less camp version of General Zod. In order to do this his plan is to totally obliterate The Avengers in public. (It's no coincidence that he uses Stark's building.)

So he gets captured to get his sceptre to manipulate them into getting angry with each other. The attack/rescue then pushes them over the edge, unleashing their most unstable member: The big green rage monster, literally forcing The Avengers to fight against each other, possibly to the death (indeed, Hulk very nearly kills one of their members in the process).

After that The Avengers almost give up. Everyone is scattered, nobody knows what everyone else is doing, or if they're coming back. Each of them is shown questioning whether to continue. It's only the death of Phil -- a random, unplanned event -- that pulls them together.

The whole thing ties together really nicely because it's the one thing Loki repeatedly says he despises and doesn't understand ("sentiment"), which all ties in with Phil's final words to Loki: His lack of conviction. Phil knows his death will give The Avengers a reason to overcome their differences, and fight for something larger than themselves -- he completely believes in them.

It's got a really nice structure, really. I think maybe you should give it another couple of watches if you think the plot wasn't very defined. I've found three to be a good number, and I may go for four :)

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I noticed that I had two movie tickets that were about to expire so I went to see:

Iron Sky which was flawed but very entertaining. I was a bit worried that it would be a complete trainwreck of geek jokes and popular culture references, but I was pleasantly surprised. The soundtrack was different, and I enjoyed it very much for that.

and

The Avengers which was okay. Quite fun actually. (Disclaimer: I don't follow superhero stuff, so the following may sound dumb.) The movie could have done without the Norse Gods. Loki had potential and could have been an interesting character, had I known more about him to begin with, but as it was, he was just a bit confusing. Thor was fucking awful, though. I'm not sure if it was the acting, the writing, the nature of the character or just me, but every time he talked, I was praying for Ragnarök, the snake and the nine steps.

Hawkeye, I liked, though.

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There's no way I'm watching it again for a while, there's not that much to it.

Loki's plan doesn't work very well at all. He doesn't beat the Avengers in public, he temporarily compromises their invisible ship over the ocean. Unleashing the Hulk happens, but doesn't end up killing anyone or getting the Avengers to turn on each other. Thor works to neutralise Hulk, that's about it, and then those two get chucked to earth with no injuries. And then they all come together and defeat him in public.

If all it takes to undo it is the hugely likely eventuality of someone they like dying during his attack on their flying ship, that's a pretty flawed plan. But Phil's death doesn't really have that much effect. Thor, Hulk, Widow and Hawkeye don't seem particularly motivated or even aware of it. Only Cap and Iron Man are put back on track by it, and even then I find it pretty hard to believe that those two would have sat back and let Loki take over the world because they were disillusioned with SHIELD.

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There's no way I'm watching it again for a while, there's not that much to it.

Loki's plan doesn't work very well at all. He doesn't beat the Avengers in public, he temporarily compromises their invisible ship over the ocean. Unleashing the Hulk happens, but doesn't end up killing anyone or getting the Avengers to turn on each other. Thor works to neutralise Hulk, that's about it, and then those two get chucked to earth with no injuries. And then they all come together and defeat him in public.

If all it takes to undo it is the hugely likely eventuality of someone they like dying during his attack on their flying ship, that's a pretty flawed plan. But Phil's death doesn't really have that much effect. Thor, Hulk, Widow and Hawkeye don't seem particularly motivated or even aware of it. Only Cap and Iron Man are put back on track by it, and even then I find it pretty hard to believe that those two would have sat back and let Loki take over the world because they were disillusioned with SHIELD.

Allow me to put forward a different way of looking at it:

Firstly, I'm not sure what you mean: Loki literally got them to fight each other. Hulk versus Black Widow, SHIELD versus Hulk, and finally, Thor versus Hulk.

Just to clarify, Loki's plan wasn't to beat them in their flying boat, it was to weaken them so he could later defeat them in public. "Divide and conquer", as Stark says. As I say, you see each of the members being demoralised and questioning if they want to continue after the fight. At that point in the movie, everything is lost. There's no sense that The Avengers exist at all, or that they will rally together.

It was Black Widow's sentimental feelings for Hawkeye that made her go after him, and try to take him down non-lethally (none of the SHIELD soldiers would have done that). It was because of this that Hawkeye got de-brainwashed. Hawkeye was never supposed to be fighting for SHIELD according to Loki's plan.

Also, it wasn't that Stark would have sat idly by and let Loki take over the world, starting with his own building. It's that he would have attempted to stop him alone -- as he was shown to do in every fight up until the that point. The end fight is carefully constructed to show that they needed to work as a team. There's tons of examples of this throughout the fight. If they had fought separately, they would have been overpowered.

Stark's arc (ahem) was central to this: He began fighting for something he believed in, something larger than himself. It's no accident that Phil tells Loki that he lacks conviction -- because Loki is fighting for selfish and superficial reasons. Stark transforms from being selfish and superficial, and he ultimately makes the supreme sacrifice, literally taking one for the team. (Just like Cap jumping onto the dummy grenade in Captain America.)

Loki's plan wasn't flawless, that's true, but his actions were totally consistent with his character: Driven by his ego, and it was the best plan he had. I have to ask, given that he had to divide the group before he could conquer them, especially if he wanted to show his might to Earth, what would you have had him do that would have been better? Getting them to fight each other was definitely his best bet.

And, as I say, his plan worked perfectly except for one thing: He killed someone that had an affect on them. Nobody else on that boat would have had the same effect. It was hugely unlikely that someone died that Stark actually cared about.

As a say, in terms of structure, I think the film was very strong indeed.

Edited by ThunderPeel2001

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And, as I say, his plan worked perfectly except for one thing: He killed someone that had an affect on them. Nobody else on that boat would have had the same effect. It was hugely unlikely that someone died that Stark actually cared about.

Well, they were lobbying grenades around and almost destroyed the entire aircraft carrier.

When will the movie villains learn that devastation brings about unity.

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92. If I ever talk to the hero on the phone, I will not taunt him. Instead I will say that his dogged perseverance has given me new insight on the futility of my evil ways and that if he leaves me alone for a few months of quiet contemplation I will likely return to the path of righteousness. (Heroes are incredibly gullible in this regard.)

Can someone fax this basic set of tactics around? http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html

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Ben: Loki shows a very mechanistic and quite unempathic understanding of the people around him, in this and Thor. His choice of location puzzled me a bit at first, but I think Thunder is right, it makes total sense as a flamboyant display.

I'm going to back away from you both now.

I just got back from seeing the Avengers; it's an incredible film, and an amazing amount of fun. I'm not massively into action or superheroes, and this is the first such film that's made me feel actual god-dammit excitement to be sat watching something at the cinema since… The Matrix.

Hulk totally steals the show. Well cast, has some of the finest moments, and they develop Bruce Banner with a really light touch throughout. Very small amounts of dialogue, but often extremely meaningful.

While it was every bit as over the top as the other fights, the bit where Black Widow

takes out a bunch of guys while tied to a chair had elements that were very reminiscent of Systema.

I may be reading too much into it, but it seemed like a nice choreographic nod to the character's home country, and none of the other fights evoked the same thing.

It's one of few films I've seen where there's not a single character I hate either, which is rare. Thor never appealed to me in comic or film form, as it seemed ridiculous and camp. Watching Thor in preparation last week, it totally won me over. Even Captain America, who I expected to dislike, is presented fairly well and has some great moments.

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Loki shows a very mechanistic and quite unempathic understanding of the people around him, in this and Thor. His choice of location puzzled me a bit at first, but I think Thunder is right, it makes total sense as a flamboyant display.

Yes. It's not just that he's flamboyant, though, it's

that he's using the building associated with one Earth's heroes. He's making a statement by commandeering Iron Man's giant shiny building.

.

It's one of few films I've seen where there's not a single character I hate either, which is rare. Thor never appealed to me in comic or film form, as it seemed ridiculous and camp. Watching Thor in preparation last week, it totally won me over. Even Captain America, who I expected to dislike, is presented fairly well and has some great moments.

I totally agree. Both Thor and Captain America were hard sells for me, but they managed to make me care about both the characters. No mean feat for such lame ideas for super-heroes (well, I'm thinking of Thor, specifically).

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Some convincing points there about Avengers.

Even if Loki's plan weren't flawed at all, though, it's still a little dull, which I think is my main problem. 'Turn the heroes against each other in order to sneak an evil scheme through' is rather overdone. It is done particularly well here, though, and I did enjoy the film, but that was one of the things that left me dissatisfied.

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That's true. Fair enough, then.

I actually wouldn't mind seeing The Avengers AGAIN. Yes, that would be a fourth time. Clearly I'm a bit of a fan :)

Also, the news is reporting that it's been a huge success in the parts of the world it's been released in. I'm SO glad that Joss Whedon should now be taken seriously in Hollywood.

Edited by ThunderPeel2001

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