Movie/TV recommendations

[Chris]

I'm pretty sure Cat Soup does none of those things you listed except maybe the big eyes.

But I know what you are saying.

I get the feeling though that it's more of a case of you not seeing the right ones that are very good in spite of the idiosyncrasies of Japan's animation industry. Mostly they don't come on DVD to the US or you have to download and find an internet fan sub.

I don't know, I used to feel the same way and would argue about anime for pages and pages on forums around the internet about most of the same things you listed (even on Idlethumbs long ago I made an ass out of myself over some argument about Japanese cartoons... but I've since deleted my posts). I guess I just got exposed to a few shorts and movies in the past few years that were so good that even if they had the regular detestable elements of what a regular Japanese comic artist or animator would learn just by growing up there, I couldn't discount some of the great stuff that has been done with animation that goes beyond any US animated film. It's still a very small selection of good stuff in comparison to the major amount of animated trash that comes from Japan it seems, and I'm not really counting the Studio Gibble stuff, since it doesn't interest me.

But then again, I still kind of hate Canadian animation because they seem to like squiggly lines and dick noses. Lately though it's been adolescent teen drama flash toons they make for Cartoon Network instead.

I'm happy to look into alternative suggestions. I really do find the general aesthetic of modern Japanese animation to be largely shit so the suggestion would have to be really rad. I like the first couple decades of the Japanese animation style, when it was still more rooted in the excellent Disney tradition it was born out of, but with an aesthetic that actually looked like it drew from elements of Japanese illustration and based on actual Japanese people instead of the horrific ultra-clean ethnically-nonsensical style that seems to have evolved over the last twenty years or so.

Anime I like, in some cases in spite of having a few of my listed frustrations, includes Akira, Lupin III, almost all of the Studio Ghibli stuff, and to an extent Cowboy Bebop. I'm sure there are a couple other things I'm forgetting.

Most manga has largely the same dumb shit that I hate, but I do love (extremely) Yoshihiro Tatsumi, who is goddamn certified amazing. A lot of Tezuka's stuff is also pretty sweet.

[James]

I thought Metropolis was a pretty good anime without too much gratuitous bullshit (although it did have some anime sensibilities I find jarring, particularly in the dialogue).

One thing that troubles me about a lot of my limited experience of anime is the undercurrents of, if not sexism, perviness. I know there's a lot of stuff that is explicitly very pervy, but even the stuff that seems to have designs on seriousness and sobriety seems unable to resist having some sort of (often quite uncomfortable) sexual content. I might be willing to accept that as an attempt to maturely tackle genuine and serious issues if it weren't so ubiquitous and didn't always have a slightly compulsive feel to it. I don't know, perhaps I'm projecting some sort of personal neuroses onto neutral content, but it seems as though unless an anime film is specifically aimed at children, it will have something sexual in it that will make me feel uneasy.

I guess what's pretty inconsistent is that, when I think about it, almost all the films I see and like and own contain a level of violence above what most of us ever experience, or would want to experience, certainly, and although on an intellectual level I recognize this as possibly problematic and troubling and maybe symptomatic of some sort of Bad Thing, I don't really react much to it on an immediate level, or feel particularly uncomfortable about it. I mean, the amount of films that have guns in them, even if they're not actually about anything involving guns, seems completely out of whack with the lives of anyone I know. Perhaps I should just watch romantic comedies for the rest of my life or something.

In conclusion: anime is weird but maybe so is Western cinema perhaps I suppose.

[Nachimir]

I mean, the amount of films that have guns in them, even if they're not actually about anything involving guns, seems completely out of whack with the lives of anyone I know. Perhaps I should just watch romantic comedies for the rest of my life or something.

I think the portrayal of romance in romantic comedies is just as weird and pathological as the commoness of guns in cinema.

[James]

I know, I know. I mainly wanted an excuse not to do stop watching the gun-films.

[DanJW]

I reckon animé is too big a genre to make blanket statements about it. Someone saying they hate animé is like saying they hate TV - chances are they just haven't found the bits of it they would like. Or maybe not.

Obviously some types of animé are more common than others and more likely to be ported over to the English-speaking world, and it is probably those that we are talking about.

I still think western TV animation is for the most part appalling, in comparison.

[syntheticgerbil]

This is probably going to be a long and awkward post... so bear with me guys.

I'm happy to look into alternative suggestions. I really do find the general aesthetic of modern Japanese animation to be largely shit so the suggestion would have to be really rad. I like the first couple decades of the Japanese animation style, when it was still more rooted in the excellent Disney tradition it was born out of, but with an aesthetic that actually looked like it drew from elements of Japanese illustration and based on actual Japanese people instead of the horrific ultra-clean ethnically-nonsensical style that seems to have evolved over the last twenty years or so.

That's funny, I also find the the older anime from the 80s and earlier to give me a nostalgic feeling even though I don't think anything I would recommend is from that era. I think Nick Jr. was into importing and dubbing existing anime in the early years when I was watching and that's why I feel that way.

But yeah, I didn't want to just start throwing suggestions out earlier because it makes me feel really self-conscious but I'll name a few that may or may not be worthwhile.

I'd say seeking out anything Masaaki Yuasa has been involved with over the past decade is very worth your time, as he seems to take many elements of European animation and Looney Tunes and put them into his work. There's Cat Soup which I named earlier which is a short he co-wrote and animated on, but what I think is really worth seeing is Mind Game, which is ridiculously Japanese at times to the point of parody but crams a lot of different animation styles and unique visuals in as well.

There's also his Kaiba series named earlier that I have not seen but is supposed to take many pointers from a Tezuka in style and character design (and maybe even story?). Kemonozume is also worth a look, although it's kind of ultra violent and sexual, as it's some kind of weird monster love story TV series. If anything it has a more gangster type of weird animation mishmash similar to Mind Game that is worth checking out.

Koji Morimoto, who usually works as an animation director or key animator, has been involved in some great shorts. He directed Noiseman Sound Insect which people should download from somewhere. He's also mostly known to the English speaking world as the guy who directed the Beyond segment in the Animatrix. His art is really distinct too, kind of almost looks like Jamie Hewlett's in a way.

I'd also recommend Tekkon Kinkreet, which I think breaks a lot of anime conventions and is a very interesting story with characters I really cared about. The backgrounds and city are gorgeous as well, using a lot of that 2.5D stuff we saw in the MI2 projection. A lot people seemed to not like it, though. It's not in the exact same style as the comic by Taiyō Matsumoto (who draws very much like a European comic artist with shaky hands, which is great, but hardly any of his work is in English) and is closer to Mind Game in looks, but not tone (same studio).

On one of the Animation Show DVDs there's this great short by a director named Koji Yamamura called Mt. Head. He seems to be capable of making great stuff, maybe less conventionally Japanese than everything else I've named, but I think his animation DVDs get imported to France in French subtitles only.

Dead Leaves is really fun, but is over the top and weirdly conventional much like Killer 7. The story is trash, but what is really great about Dead Leaves is the way it stretches a low budget and low amounts of frames into such kinetic animation. It has really stretched what I see can be done with limited animation, much like Ren and Stimpy.

There's also a lot of good short collections that introduce the audience to many animation styles that don't often get used (even by the same director in other works). If you can find Robot Carnival, Memories, Digital Juice, Neo-Tokyo, and the Genius Parties (Which I haven't seen and I'm still waiting for to arrive from Australia, the only place they are in English on DVD ) you'll probably find something good.

Most manga has largely the same dumb shit that I hate, but I do love (extremely) Yoshihiro Tatsumi, who is goddamn certified amazing. A lot of Tezuka's stuff is also pretty sweet.

Yeah, I really don't read any Japanese comics outside of what I can find in English by Taiyo Matsumoto and Katsuhiro Otomo. I think no one is interested in completely translating the complete work of certain artists into English and instead focus on long running volumes that sell to 15 year old goths who frequent Barnes and Noble, which is very frustrating. I've hardly read anything by Otomo outside of Akira, but I did import a collection of his short stories from the UK called Memories, since it was in English, and there's a lot of range in there that I was very impressed with. Stories ranged from extremely goofy and cartoon like to political to parodies to serious and strange sci-fi in the vein of Akira. I know he has a few more short collection volumes which are in Japanese only that I would love to read one day.

But thank you for the recommendation of Yoshihiro Tatsumi, as I've never even heard of him before. He must be good because he draws detailed backgrounds in his comics, which seems to be a good indicator of a good Japanese comic artist (or any), since all of the rest of the typical artists just slap some zip-a-tones or gradients over white in the back and call it a day.

I reckon animé is too big a genre to make blanket statements about it.

Just a nerd note here, but I don't really consider anime to be a genre (or any animation really). It's really just more of a tendency you get for a blanket style from a crammed country with a large animation industry rather than a genre, much like US cartoons and movies tend to have a lot of overacting and big eyes with small pupils or French cartoons are just so... French.

Someone saying they hate animé is like saying they hate TV - chances are they just haven't found the bits of it they would like. Or maybe not.

Obviously some types of animé are more common than others and more likely to be ported over to the English-speaking world, and it is probably those that we are talking about.

Yeah, I mean that's all the major problem contributing to the hate towards Japanese cartoons. The most sex filled, violent, and vapid stuff seems to be more ready for import. Anything that may have deeper symbolism or meaning rooted in Japanese culture usually gets axed, unless you are Ghibli and have the helping hands of Disney. There's probably so much stuff we are missing that we'll never see. And then you can add to the problem that not every English speaking country gets the same imports. The UK and Australia seem to get higher quality comic and movie translations than the US.

One thing that troubles me about a lot of my limited experience of anime is the undercurrents of, if not sexism, perviness. I know there's a lot of stuff that is explicitly very pervy, but even the stuff that seems to have designs on seriousness and sobriety seems unable to resist having some sort of (often quite uncomfortable) sexual content. I might be willing to accept that as an attempt to maturely tackle genuine and serious issues if it weren't so ubiquitous and didn't always have a slightly compulsive feel to it. I don't know, perhaps I'm projecting some sort of personal neuroses onto neutral content, but it seems as though unless an anime film is specifically aimed at children, it will have something sexual in it that will make me feel uneasy.

I feel the same way about the uneasiness. I guess the pervertedness seems to be sort of a joke most of the time in Japan or more widely accepted as typical male behavior, but it just kind of weirds me out as well. There's also the weird underage girl attraction thing that seems to pop up a lot, even in some video game imports we get.

*Haha, maybe this thing can be read in chunks among your work week. Sorry about my length. I didn't even want to insert links or pictures in fear of making it even longer, so sorry if those are absent as well.*

[Chris]

I can't repond to the really posts in this thread right now, such as the suggestions, because I'm in a hurry, but I will quickly respond to this:

I reckon animé is too big a genre to make blanket statements about it. Someone saying they hate animé is like saying they hate TV - chances are they just haven't found the bits of it they would like. Or maybe not.

Obviously some types of animé are more common than others and more likely to be ported over to the English-speaking world, and it is probably those that we are talking about.

I still think western TV animation is for the most part appalling, in comparison.

I don't think anime is a medium in the sense TV is. It's a particular style. There is, undoubtedly, a huge range within that, but not in the sense of the whole of "film" or "television" or "theatre" or "literature" or even, by definition, "animation."

And I disagree about it simply being a matter of not finding the right ones. I don't mean to say I think all anime is bad, or that I wouldn't like any of it. I have liked some of it. However, I do think it is possible to simply dislike the basic stylistic tropes of a certain genre. Someone might just inherently dislike the properties that make a musical a musical, or that make a poem a poem, or that make a metal song a metal song. They might also find individual examples of those things that they do end up liking in spite of that, but that doesn't mean they don't have a basic underlying distaste for certain elements of those forms that generally run through them. (You do this yourself at the end of your post.)

[DanJW]

Hmm not really. I can think of lots of western animation that I enjoy, and on those shows there is nothing I don't like, or at least nothing endemic. I just think that Sturgeon's Law runs rampant through that medium. Mind you I think that about TV in general.

edit: But I accept your point. A lot for the things you stated a distaste for may be forms of cultural shorthand in the genre/medium. I'm sure you have read McCloud's Underdstanding Comics, and so know what I'm talking about there.

[syntheticgerbil]

I don't think anime is a medium in the sense TV is. It's a particular style. There is, undoubtedly, a huge range within that, but not in the sense of the whole of "film" or "television" or "theatre" or "literature" or even, by definition, "animation."

And I disagree about it simply being a matter of not finding the right ones. I don't mean to say I think all anime is bad, or that I wouldn't like any of it. I have liked some of it. However, I do think it is possible to simply dislike the basic stylistic tropes of a certain genre.

Yeah, I can completely understand all of this. My angle was more that since Japan has one of the biggest animation industries in the world (debatably even the largest if you go on original content as opposed to who outsources more and who has more effects type studios) and that there's probably something out there for you to like. But I could have also just given a ton of terrible suggestions as well.

But going on the style, I'll avoid a lot of video games if they look way too much like generic anime crap. This leads me to have not played much JRPGs. It's also somewhat turned me off from the DS adventure games but I'd still like to play them one day anyway.

I guess I sort of feel the same way when people really don't like comic books, not really because of the medium, but because of the general advertised subject matter in US comics. There's a lot of range in US comics (much more than the animation industry) outside of superheroes and Garfield type comics, but I don't think a lot of people understand this or care to find out. Japan's manga defnitely has a lot more subjects about many different types of characters, but their drawing style doesn't seem to vary as wildly as the artists in the US. France's comic industry seems to have gotten the best of both worlds, but they don't usually translate or export anything for English speakers it seems. So, I tend to think with such abundance there's always gotta be something out there for someone to enjoy in the comic world, as long as they enjoy pictures and reading. But then again I guess there are also those who think a book is cheapened with pictures.

Edited August 13, 2009 by syntheticgerbil

[MrHoatzin]

I agree with Chris.™

Speaking of anime, a thing that at first glance falls within the genre, but isn't anime (with all the tup implications that brings): Avatar – The Last Airbender. I watched the series relatively recently and enjoyed it far more than I thought I would.

It is an odd beasty. It takes a lot of the style of anime, but manages not to be too cartoony. It is made by Yanks, and yet the world depicted is heavily, competently inspired by far-eastern cultures. It is made by Nickelodeon for a young audience, but the themes are fairly serious and well written (with the exception of some cringeworthy exposition lines in the first few episodes and an unfortunate deus ex machina that wraps the story up at the end of season three). It is a rare gem of epic storytelling that manages to be compelling at every level, from the world in which it is set, to the characters and their interaction, to the dialogue. There are very few episodes in the three-season run that feel like filler, and they are seldom formulaic.

Mark Hamill voices the main bad dude. Not a particularly outstanding performance, but fitting.

It is a sort of spiritual heir to Ursula K. LeGuin and her Earthsea books (which have been butchered horribly by both Ghibli and the SciFi Channel). If you liked those, you'll likely like this.

I would feel comfortable in saying Avatar is to cartoon series what The Wire is to live action series; a kind of high water mark that I don't expect to be reached any time soon by any other franchise.

[DanJW]

It is a sort of spiritual heir to Ursula K. LeGuin and her Earthsea books (which have been butchered horribly by both Ghibli and the SciFi Channel). If you liked those, you'll likely like this..

I had already heard good things about it and read some interesting interviews with the creators, but now I really must start watching this.

[eljay]

I second Kingz's recommendation of Avatar, it surprised me too.

I would also like to recommend Mushishi, a pretty unique series as far as I can tell. Way more sedate and small scale than the majority of anime, it's essentially a collection of short stories, quite character focused and really relaxed.

[James]

Someone might just inherently dislike the properties that make a musical a musical

Yep.

[Nachimir]

Someone might just inherently dislike the properties that make a musical a musical

I thought this of myself, but Dancer in the Dark and Avenue Q both punched through any such dislike by lacking the sunny, happy happy joy joy sentimentality of other shows.

[Chris]

I thought this of myself, but Dancer in the Dark and Avenue Q both punched through any such dislike by lacking the sunny, happy happy joy joy sentimentality of other shows.

I don't think that's a "but" necessarily. I listed several anime productions I like, which to me doesn't invalidate my other frustrations with incredibly widespread genre tropes.

[Psych]

Avatar is a great show, Like those guys said.

Now while we're recommending anime that doesn't have all the stuff that makes anime horrible, I'd like to suggest Mushi-shi.

The story follows Ginko a traveling doctor of sorts who specializes in dealing with mushi, an oft-misunderstood species of bacteria/spirits, on his travels through a slightly fantastic feudal Japan. Each of the episodes plays as an independent fable in which Ginko tries to understand and then cure the strange curses the mushi bring. There's some human introspection, but the show lets viewers draw their own conclusions instead of getting preachy.

I guarantee it has none of the annoying anime tropes mentioned in this thread, and it's all available for free in english on Hulu.

[blackboxme]

I guess I sort of feel the same way when people really don't like comic books, not really because of the medium, but because of the general advertised subject matter in US comics. There's a lot of range in US comics (much more than the animation industry) outside of superheroes and Garfield type comics, but I don't think a lot of people understand this or care to find out. Japan's manga defnitely has a lot more subjects about many different types of characters, but their drawing style doesn't seem to vary as wildly as the artists in the US.

I agree with this superhero/garfield analogy. We all know that US comics have a wider scope than superhero/garfield, but if we weren't from the US or didn't speak English, would we know that?

Maybe I'm walking into a trap by saying this, but let me use Azumanga Daioh! as an example. It's the story of a group of friends going through high-school along with two of their teachers. There is zero romance, zero violence and almost zero plot. The skeleton of the series is just the rhythms of the school year taken over three years until high school graduation. The story is told through self contained 4 panel comics, and each panel is just a simple square going from the top of the page to the bottom. I'm reading the books in Japanese.

So I'm slowly reading a comic book about high school girls, one of whom was promoted from grade school into high school, in a language pretty radically different from my own and it is a perfect representation of my high-school experience. A group of friends, none of whom gets romantically involved, ever, just happily going through high-school like complete dopes, right up until the end where they take the college exams and quietly realize that they don't know what life is outside of high-school and they're all splitting up and going to different colleges. The end.

I think that it's crazy that the medium supports stories like this. The story of everyday life, friendship, putting off dealing with life's big questions without even knowing that you're doing that.

I also happen to enjoy the art which not everybody would. I love the use of texture in the black and white format, which to me definitely stems from woodblock printing techniques.

Edited August 14, 2009 by blackboxme

[Chris]

I agree with this superhero/garfield analogy. We all know that US comics have a wider scope than superhero/garfield, but if we weren't from the US or didn't speak English, would we know that?

It depends how interested you are in the form. I read lots of independent comics, and I own comics from France, Finland, Japan, Canada, Italy, Israel, etc.

[James]

I thought this of myself, but Dancer in the Dark and Avenue Q both punched through any such dislike by lacking the sunny, happy happy joy joy sentimentality of other shows.

I don't think that's a "but" necessarily. I listed several anime productions I like, which to me doesn't invalidate my other frustrations with incredibly widespread genre tropes.

I guess it's a matter of whether the exceptions are revealing previously unappreciated facets of the genre/style/medium/whatever, or simply transcending the stuff that bothers you by being very high-quality in other areas.

For example, the musicals that I've liked haven't revealed to me that I've been wrong all this time; they've just been interesting or entertaining enough to let me look past my intolerance to the things I don't like about musicals.

[brkl]

It depends how interested you are in the form. I read lots of independent comics, and I own comics from France, Finland, Japan, Canada, Italy, Israel, etc.

Huh, just curious, which Finnish one do you own?

[Nachimir]

I don't think that's a "but" necessarily. I listed several anime productions I like, which to me doesn't invalidate my other frustrations with incredibly widespread genre tropes.

I was talking about musicals, not your dislike of most anime

For example, the musicals that I've liked haven't revealed to me that I've been wrong all this time; they've just been interesting or entertaining enough to let me look past my intolerance to the things I don't like about musicals.

Quite. There are ones I like a lot, but they haven't converted me into a fan of musicals in general; they were just enough to stop me dismissing them out of hand.

[ThunderPeel2001]

It depends how interested you are in the form. I read lots of independent comics, and I own comics from France, Finland, Japan, Canada, Italy, Israel, etc.

And I wonder how those few comics you read actually represent what's available in those countries? Perhaps you could post your French or Finnish titles and see if the Thumbs from those countries would say it was a reasonable cross-section?

[Chris]

And I wonder how those few comics you read actually represent what's available in those countries? Perhaps you could post your French or Finnish titles and see if the Thumbs from those countries would say it was a reasonable cross-section?

Well, probably not much, in the same way the American comics I read don't represent anything remotely close to the American comics mainstream or what's published by a major publisher.

[syntheticgerbil]

Mr. Remo, suggest me some international comics, I'm always on the lookout for more stuff. I tend to just keep buying comics by the same artists/writers over and over until I just have huge chunks of shelf devoted to them, so I think I'm due for some variety at the moment.

I would love to get Marc Caro comics, but they are all in French only, as seems to be the general problem with the "bande dessinée." I have two old 80s issues of Raw that are all over the place in terms of art quality and writing, but they do have a few short things in English by Caro.

I generally like comics drawn by the same guy who's writing, if that helps.

[Chris]

Mr. Remo, suggest me some international comics, I'm always on the lookout for more stuff. I tend to just keep buying comics by the same artists/writers over and over until I just have huge chunks of shelf devoted to them, so I think I'm due for some variety at the moment.

I would love to get Marc Caro comics, but they are all in French only, as seems to be the general problem with the "bande dessinée." I have two old 80s issues of Raw that are all over the place in terms of art quality and writing, but they do have a few short things in English by Caro.

I generally like comics drawn by the same guy who's writing, if that helps.

I'm at work right now but I'll try to remember to walk over to my shelf and note down some titles when I get home.

Most of what I read is done by individuals rather than teams, so that's fine.

But while I'm here, on the topic of French comics, I love Monsieur Jean by Dupuy and Berberian. It's one of the few examples of comics I read that isn't by an individual, but it's an unusual case in that the two co-authors share duties on everything, from writing to inking -- they don't have specific roles as writer or artist. Drawn & Quarterly has published a full volume of their Monsieur Jean work (as well as a volume of work by Philippe Dupuy), and individual Monsieur Jean strips have been printed in Drawn & Quarterly collections.

Also I guess speaking of French comics published by Drawn & Quarterly, David B.'s Epileptic is truly incredible.