jp-30

I hate cell-shading. If you want a cartoon looking game, then do it 'properly'

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Obviously I'm missing something (and I'm no Fan of Nintendo) but of the pics Iv'e seen of Windwaker it looks like ever other cell shaded game - a bit shite :frusty:

Yes, you're obviously missing something.

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[quote name=Intrepid Homoludens

EDIT: That was fun. I forgot how tricky the second level of the demo was. Got killed, will try again later. Hey, if anyone here is interested, let's do some multiplayer XIII! Just d/l the multiplayer demo and we can meet up for some cel shaded mess!

You have no idea how much I want to do this right now, especially as I have been deprived of playing XIII at all. Except, on my connection which I believe I have mentioned before... it would take approximately three days and cost me about E30...

But I agree, the graphics in XIII stunned me. It's a brilliant example of cell shading used right.

Does anybody remember early 3D? Remember Alone in the Dark? Stiff, blocky characters, odd 'special effects'... even the prerendered backgrounds were not to the standard of today.

Give Cell Shading a chance. It's early days for it yet.

And man, I hate to bring Zelda back up in this conversation but... if this is the fuss they made about the transition from 3D to Cel Shaded graphics, I hate to think what Zelda fans made of the transition from sprites to 3D...

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And man, I hate to bring Zelda back up in this conversation but... if this is the fuss they made about the transition from 3D to Cel Shaded graphics, I hate to think what Zelda fans made of the transition from sprites to 3D...

If I recall correctly, most people were excited about it. Sure, there were the requisite hardcore fundamentalists, but I remember most of the Zelda fans I knew looking forward to Zelda 64, as it was called while in development.

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If I recall correctly, most people were excited about it. Sure, there were the requisite hardcore fundamentalists, but I remember most of the Zelda fans I knew looking forward to Zelda 64, as it was called while in development.

I was joking. My sense of humour (?) is dodgy today on account of being at work.

But.. there actually really were people that didn't want it to go from Sprites to 3D?

Ha ha ha. That's crazy!

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You have no idea how much I want to do this right now, especially as I have been deprived of playing XIII at all. Except, on my connection which I believe I have mentioned before... it would take approximately three days and cost me about E30...

Aw man, Yufsielicious, that sucks! I would have loved to have played with you and a few others here (I wanna kick Chris's awesome obstacle ass so badly in deathmatch!). I myself haven't played the full game yet, I'll wait until it's dirt cheap and I have extra cash.

But I agree, the graphics in XIII stunned me. It's a brilliant example of cell shading used right.

Yeah, I'm not so much discerning as jp-30. Maybe it's 'cause I'm haven't been so used to cel shading and all those other 2D visual look stuff, but I really do love XIII's visual style. From the consensus of many reviews the gameplay is solid but predictable. Still, I'd play it through just for the cool looking graphics.

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Do you think I'd be able to legally park in Disabled spaces in car parks, on account of having Dial Up?

I'd love to have played you guys in a lot of things, but my connection speed does not permit.

I'm going to go and check whether broadband is available in my area yet.

In other news; something that does irritate me, though, is when people use graphic styles just for the sake of using graphic styles. I mean, I think in Zelda it was a careful choice they made that, in my opinion, benefited the game. Again, in XIII, it was perfect for the comic book style. In Futurama, however badly done it is, it is of course supposed to simulate the style of the TV shows.

But, I can't think of any examples off the top of my head because I only remember games that are excellent... sometimes I'll pick up a game and think, 'why the heck is this cell shaded?'. It's not done to particularly benefit the game, it's just done because Cell Shading can be done, and it's new and cool at the moment. It's not just cell shading, either. It's done with a lot of styles, but I just noticed it particularly strongly with Cell Shading because when done wrong, it does tend to look crap (But then again, so does 3D).

(I wanna kick Chris's awesome obstacle ass....)

What's an awesome obstacle ass?

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maybe the reason why i hate cel shading so much is because I never liked line art. I like everything to be defined in terms of light and shadow. when lines form contours of objects, I get insulted for some reason.

an attitude i need to change.

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I love cell-shading when done right. I don't like it in bad games or when the cell-shading isn't done right. Of course, that applies to every technique ever used nin games.

Zelda Wind Waker looked great! You have to see the game in action to see what it really looks like, screenshots can't justify the games quality graphics. This is Cell-shading done right.

Also, Dragon Quest VIII looks great, and so does Dark Chronicles 2. There are a few games that could work great with these kinds of graphics. A Monkey Island with cell-shaded 3D graphics would look fantastic.

And of course people will complaint about new technology whenever it comes up. All of us who are adventure gamers are experts in complainting. We should know.

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Hey, if anyone here is interested, let's do some multiplayer XIII! Just d/l the multiplayer demo and we can meet up for some cel shaded mess!

If I tell you that the full game is very fun, will you go out and get it?

The thing to remember is that much cell-shading is done cheaply, by people who aren't particularly skilled at it. Go and watch someone playing The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker. Your jaw will drop. Because it really does look like a real-time cartoon. Games like Futurama and the million-and-one average Simpsons games do cell-shading quickly, without the care and attention needed to do it well. But when cell-shading is done properly (and it certainly can be even now), then it truly is an impressive, beautiful and visually striking art form.

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I've messed with cell shading a bit, and it's fairly easy to get totally wrong. The shapes of the 3d objects need to be sharper in some places than you would imagine them to be, in order to properly create the visual effects. I see no fault in cell shading as a concept, just game makers who have no previous mastery of it.

I forgot to mention, a big part of the cartoon Futurama is rendered cellshading. The opening scene is nearly entirely 3D. The characters may even be 3d, I can promise you that it is possible to do, albeit maybe not in realtime.

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What's an awesome obstacle ass?

I'd say it's a very BIG ass, but I think it's got something to do with an AG.com in-joke.

--Erwin

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I was kinda hoping someone might show me why its so great :confused:

There's not really any way for us to do that without you playing it. I can explain why I think it's so beautiful, but if you've seen shots and don't like it, seeing it in motion is the only thing left really.

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But.. there actually really were people that didn't want it to go from Sprites to 3D?

Oh, there always are. You've hung around AG enough now to know that...

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(I wanna kick Chris's awesome obstacle ass so badly in deathmatch!)

:devil::gaming:

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Luddites, I tell you! Luddites!!

Hey, believe me, I'm with you.

*nervously peeks around for Jim*

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I have to agree - watch it in motion before commenting. When I first saw screenshots of Wind Waker, I was not impressed by its graphics at all. It looked like very cheap 3D.

However, when it is in motion and all of the blurring effects, particle effects, brilliant lighting, and everything else all come together, it really is a whole different experience. It really does feel like you're playing a cartoon, contrary to what the screenshots show.

It's the little touches that really make it. For example, when you roll around, bits of the surface will all flick up in a really awesome cartoony fashion. When you're in water, cartoony ripples and such will flow behind you. When the cartoony smoke effects and such flow in, you cannot help but be impressed.

So, yeah. Don't judge a cell-shaded game on its screenshots alone - you must play them and see them in motion.

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I mean, who wouldn't have prefered to sail around on a REALISTIC boat. And fight a REALISTIC Gannon?

I hope this is a joke! :shifty:

I can only agree with the previous posters, you really have to see Wind Waker in action. The first time you see the guards at the forbidden fortress wandering past, you'll be a convert, guaranteed*.

Cel-shading does seem to be a bit of a fad nowadays, just like the 'realistic' look, thanks mainly to its successful application in a few past games - and like '24'-style split screens that are omnipresent in TV documentaries, it's being misused horribly and people will start to resent it. Take solace in the fact that in a few years, some new fad will rise up to replace it, and the only games to use cel-shading will have the appropriate amount of thought and effort put it. Probably. :fart:

* void everywhere

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As much as wind waker suceeded in its animation and "toon-shading" technique, I still feel that Jet Set Radio has the most convincing cartoony look. Windwaker's characters were very cartoony, but the enviornments, at times, were admittedly bland. JSR was cartoon through and through.

That game is a true forgotten classic, too bad it was shat apon by its Xbox successor.

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