jp-30

I hate cell-shading. If you want a cartoon looking game, then do it 'properly'

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Anyone else have the same problem as me with cell-shaded games? Yes, I know it was all very cool 5 years ago to have cartoonesque 3D figures running around in a 3D environment...

But computers are powerful enough now to actually generate a true cartoon style 2D character if that's the style you're trying to replicate. I'm sick of seeing cell-shaded Simpsons, Futurama, Marvel characters etc when there's no reason they can't look exactly like their animated counterparts from the TV shows.

futurama_02.jpgfry_of_futurama.jpg

I realise it's a big step from Day of the Tentacle & Monkey Island 3 where the characters were properly animated over 2D static backgrounds to having a 2D animated character running around in a (pseudo) 3D world. And I know it's a lot more work to have to render every frame of the character animation in 2D, but come on - we deserve better.

Down with cell-shading! :deranged:

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So you want realtime cellshading done properly, right? Wel it can't be done (with modern day pc's at least). Simple as that. Cell shading costs your pc just as much trouble as your standard 3D scene, even if you'd think that cell shading is much lighter.

THis link shows you what you can do when you render cell shaded properly. But not realtime ;)

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Granted, I've never had the pleasure of watching Futurama, but I was under the impression that the show itself used a technique similar to cellshading. If I were to guess, that is probably why they used cellshading in the game. I'm sure Doug will correct me. ;)

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Futurama the show does use cell shading (well) for the 3D environments and the spaceships etc.

So you want realtime cellshading done properly, right?

Not exactly. I want animated sprites, as seen in Dragon's Lair & Space Ace, and even in Monkey Island 3 in games that want a cartoon look, rather than the (over)use of 3D polygon based characters with cell-shading to simulate a 2D character such as Homer Simpson.

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Not exactly. I want animated sprites, as seen in Dragon's Lair & Space Ace, and even in Monkey Island 3 in games that want a cartoon look, rather than the (over)use of 3D polygon based characters with cell-shading to simulate a 2D character such as Homer Simpson.

This is just impractical, or destined to look rubbish, or both. The cutscenes in Dragon's Lair and COMI look lovely, but how do you apply such a 'traditional' animation technique to an interactive game? Either you painstakingly animate every character from every conceivable angle (impractical) or you restrict your characters to only walking in eight directions (looks rubbish - but this was the approach adopted by every point-and-click adventure game ever), or you restrict camera angles so that certain actions can only be viewed from certain angles, and other such horribly restrictive solutions.

Bill Tiller pointed out some fairly obvious stuff related to this in some interview somewhere (vague-o-rama), but I'm sure you remember that. Cel-shading is just so much more flexible.

As it happens, I do agree that a fully 'hand-animated' game would be really cool to see, but it's not going to happen without a team of about a million enslaved animators. Besides, have you played Wind Waker? It looks great - I can't imagine it looking much better. :partyhat:

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If you're asking for properly drawn 2D sprites in a 3D game, you're either asking for Duke Nukem 3D or Doom 1/2 style where the sprites are always facing you, (which looks absolutely terrible), or you're asking for animators to in fact animate every single character movement from not just 360 degrees, but in fact from every angle above and below... how is that going to be done without simply cel shading a 3D object? What you're requesting is impossible with a realtime camera (unless you want to pay about 3 billion dollars), and nearly as impractical if you want to have a cinematic camera ala Broken Sword 3, Eternal Darkness, etc.

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Either you painstakingly animate every character from every conceivable angle

In the case of The Simpsons and Futurama, the characters have already been drawn from pretty much every conceivable angle for the TV shows, and are no doubt already digitised for the rendering of the show.

You can't tell me that Fry image from the Futurama game up there couldn't be done better with utilising frames of the actual character from the TV series. It looks bloody awful as a cell-shaded polygon based character.

I do concede that camera issues are a major consideration of 2D characters inhabiting a 3D world, and that today's PCs may still be too slow to make alternatives to cell-shading impractical. Buy I relish the day when a proper cartoon character makes it to an interactive action game and it looks indistinguishable from the TV cartoon character it is supposed to represent.

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In some scenes, Futurama's characters have been cel-shaded too. You don't even notice the difference.

--Erwin

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I realise it's a big step from Day of the Tentacle & Monkey Island 3 where the characters were properly animated over 2D static backgrounds to having a 2D animated character running around in a (pseudo) 3D world. And I know it's a lot more work to have to render every frame of the character animation in 2D, but come on - we deserve better

I'm not fond of real-time cellshading but your argument here is..eeerr.. completely stupid? :frown:

I mean do you even imagine the animation work behind, let's say... anyrandom camera movements (I'm speaking for example a huge circular up and down travelling) ?

It's impossible. When you know how much it took for the bests of the bests in 2D animation to add cartoon characters in Roger Rabbit or Looney Tunes scene... and that is for "static" camera movement... you'll soon realize that it's foolish to use your solution.

To me, the answer is in high polygon models and/or real time cell shading technology.

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In the case of The Simpsons and Futurama, the characters have already been drawn from pretty much every conceivable angle for the TV shows, and are no doubt already digitised for the rendering of the show.

You're totally confusing me now :) You're saying that Fry has been drawn walking with his left foot forward, and then with his left foot a little more forward, and then with his left foot a little more forward than that and then his left foot starting to touch the ground etc from every single angle? He's probably been drawn standing still head on from all 360 degrees, but not every frame of his walk cycle, every frame of him jumping, every frame of him transitioning from jumping to catching a ladder, etc. And for sure none of that stuff has been drawn from, say, five degrees higher than head-on, or six degrees higher :) It seems like there's a lot more work than you imagine to be done if you truly want a 2d animated character to work in an interactive environment.

It worked in the original Dragon's Lair because the entire game was basically 'prerendered.' There were only two or three things you could do in each scene, always with a fixed camera angle. It played the exact same animation each time you walked through a particular door, he ran the same speed down each particular hallway.

A properly drawn 2D game that behaves anywhere nearly as properly as a realtime 3d/cel shaded game would probably be the coolest thing that was ever made (and would probably get made in Japan), but it would be such a painfully huge undertaking that I can't imagine anyone ever funding it.

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Exactly Jake - just what I was about to say. :)

Looking at the image from the Futurama game at the top of this thread, I'd be inclined to say that the nasty look is more down to dodgy modelling than cel-shading per se. It's probably not a great example to use, especially considering many bits of Futurama itself are cel-shaded and look far nicer than that...

Anyway, yeah, jp seems to be under the impression that it's the limitations of today's game platforms that stop traditionally animated games being possible - it's not, it's the huge amount of labour involved. The only practical way to do it would be to introduce some kind of automation to the animation process, but since that's effectively what cel shading already is (a fudge to give the impression of a cartoon), I don't think you'd be happy with that either. :fart:

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Exactly Jake - just what I was about to say. :)

Looking at the image from the Futurama game at the top of this thread, I'd be inclined to say that the nasty look is more down to dodgy modelling than cel-shading per se.

I think he is an awesome model! I think the whole thing looks fantastic except that the scene needs some antialiasing, since some of the lines used for the cell shading effect are quite jagged.

Toon shading will continue to improve. One day someone will make a toon shaded game, with great art direction that will just blow us all away.

..kinda like this Robbie Williams video clip in 2001:

robbie_Iceland.gifRobbieWi2001.gif

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I absolutely hate cel shading.

Biggest gain you get from 3D is that youget illusion of depth, but cel shading sortof nullifies it. what's the point?

I can't think of one instance where a game's visual benefited from cel shading.

maybe except Viewtiful Joe. (but only because it suited its comicbook style narrative)

I think the third Dragon's Lair game had nice cel shading for the characters - many people even seem to think that they're pre-rendered, but they didn't fit well into normally rendered backgrounds.

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I absolutely hate cel shading.

Biggest gain you get from 3D is that youget illusion of depth, but cel shading sortof nullifies it. what's the point?

The point is to achieve a 2d look. That seems kind of obvious to me.

I can't think of one instance where a game's visual benefited from cel shading.

maybe except Viewtiful Joe. (but only because it suited its comicbook style narrative)

I think the third Dragon's Lair game had nice cel shading for the characters - many people even seem to think that they're pre-rendered, but they didn't fit well into normally rendered backgrounds.

Have you seen Wind Waker? It's certainly one of the most gorgeous games I've seen, and the art direction is amazing.

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Have you seen Wind Waker? It's certainly one of the most gorgeous games I've seen, and the art direction is amazing.

I've only seen its screenshots and haven't seen it in play.

I love the scenery. None of the game seems cel shaded (just cartoony textures) except the characters. and I don't like how the characters are drawn. It would've been much better if they used the same style rendering for the characters as the backdrop.

In my opinion, of course.

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ike how the characters are drawn. It would've been much better if they used the same style rendering for the characters as the backdrop

...They did.

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Obviously I'm missing something (and I'm no Fan of Nintendo) but of the pics Iv'e seen of Windwaker it looks like ever other cell shaded game - a bit shite :frusty:

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So far I've yet to see a cell shaded game that actually recreates the enviornment of a cartoon, but when that day comes...look out.

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This is really just bruises left over from the Zelda fiasco isn't it?

No?

Okay.

I agree. The graphics in cell shaded games wang chum. Either do proper cartoony style or realistic style. Cell shading just looks wierd.

I mean, who wouldn't have prefered to sail around on a REALISTIC boat. And fight a REALISTIC Gannon?

:\

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Your avatar disagrees!

It isn't a 3D model.

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With all due respect, I think this thread is a typical example of "game Y does it horribly, therefore the whole idea/style/technology is clearly stupid". You see that a lot in the adventure game community where everyone says 3D is crap by default... until finally some nice 3D adventure games come along and people start making sense.

Toon-shading or other non-photorealistic rendering are just techniques, and it can be done both good and badly. I think Dragon Quest VII is a recent example of toon-shading taken into a new direction that really makes it seem handdrawn.

Futurama is clearly an example of a crummy toon-shader combined with bad models. It's not an example of why toon-shading is always crap.

topimg_01.jpg

583527_20030801_screen011.jpg

583527_20030801_screen008.jpg

(Hopefully GameSpot allows external links.)

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With all due respect, I think this thread is a typical example of "game Y does it horribly, therefore the whole idea/style/technology is clearly stupid". You see that a lot in the adventure game community where everyone says 3D is crap by default... until finally some nice 3D adventure games come along and people start making sense.

Well put, Marek.

jp-30, if I could only import the frying pan from Adventure Gamers forums I would beat you completely senseless with it. :deranged:

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19-s.jpg 13-s.jpg

67-s.jpg 90-s.jpg

It's ultimately a matter of personal preferences. I personally loved the look of XIII, not just because it reproduced the look of highly stylized comic books, but also for how it brought that look to life by including those big words exclaimed when characters die and dynamically appearing mini-panels showing related scenes within the main scene. These screenshots do nothing to convince, you really do need to see the game in action to discover how visually cool and dynamic it all is, sooo.....download and play the single player demo AND the multiplayer demo!

Hmmm, in fact I think I shall re-install the singleplayer demo and run through it again just for fun! :woohoo:

EDIT: That was fun. I forgot how tricky the second level of the demo was. Got killed, will try again later. Hey, if anyone here is interested, let's do some multiplayer XIII! Just d/l the multiplayer demo and we can meet up for some cel shaded mess!

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