Recommended Posts

Yes it's Madhouse, so that makes sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven't seen Death Parade yet, but the original Death Billiards short felt downright Satoshi Kon-esque.

That's a intresting comparison, it's certainly feels like it's from the same ideological school of animation craft as Kon.

I don't think it ever quite has the subtlety of storytelling that Kon's works had at their best however.

Death Parades central conciet of mortals being judged by emotionless immortals is a template that is old as myth itself (& more recently it reminds me of the sandman comics in some ways), now it does deserve some credit for eventually doing some intresting things with some of those concepts, with a decent take on the whole fall from grace thing, as well as additionally it's managing to tread with surprising sensitivity around waht could be some quite delicate issues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've made a thread where we can discuss planning and execution of our as-of-yet untitled anime podcast.

 

I've also used my monthly anime budget to buy a C01U Pro, like Rodi suggested, because it had incredible review for its price, but don't take that as a demand that we do a podcast immediately. Sooner or later, I'll be recording voice stuff for one reason or another, and the sale was today, so...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

so I've been trying to get push my through the second season/arc of Shirobako having enjoyed parts of the first 12 episodes but having having some serious bugbears about its character design. I need to get to get to ep24 before a final judgement but so far I feel those bugbears having gone into a temporary hibernation seem to be back fiercer than ever.

 

I've actually found myself having to walk away from the TV mid episode (18) for the first time for a long long time because I was so angry there was a distinct likelihood I'd end up throwing the remote &/or screaming curses at it in impotent frustration at how on gods earth they do so much right at times but end up driving me mad with the dissonance between some of their creative choices and the tone of the rest of the show.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi I just started Shirobako, and I know this has been discussed in this thread before but:

 

(huge image, had to spoiler it)

shirobako-19b.jpg

VS:

shirobako.jpg

 

It doesn't bother me (as much) when all of the characters in an anime are dolled up or caricatured 

 

sample_f7148eaa70a8811f38b1c39fb16ef8be8

 

But having a mix of milquetoast people (usually guys) and hypermoe-one-body-type-buy-a-figurine dolls (usually girls) highlights the pandering character design choice in every anime that just feels exploitative and aggressively male oriented. The anime looks fun and really interesting but I would enjoy it 200% more if it gave care to overall aesthetics rather than focus grouped character designs.

 

It furthers that feeling of regular looking people being the audience surrogate and the cute dolls (all the women, every woman) being the show, fulfilling roles and being cute rather than existing as autonomous characters, no matter how much agency they have in the actual plot.

 

I would even be a little more okay with making all the women extremely attractive if it weren't that incredibly overdone look.

 

I'm tooting a very tooted horn but I'm genuinely curious. Is the moe thing so integral to the financial success of a series that it must exist for anything to succeed? I've come off of the idea that moe is the devil itself, but it's the gratuitousness that bothers me. If it's used for an actual purpose, then fine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I recall a discussion about MOE aesthetics while back but can't recall the specifics (nor what page they were on)... so what about it is giving you the ill-feels?  I mean if they were to just throw in this kind of looks into the show 

 

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/gundam/images/8/88/YazanZZ.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110609210112

 

I don't think any of us will like the show better for it.  But I get that everyone looking same-ish can tick off some warning signs so I'm curious exactly how it bothers you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm tooting a very tooted horn but I'm genuinely curious. Is the moe thing so integral to the financial success of a series that it must exist for anything to succeed? I've come off of the idea that moe is the devil itself, but it's the gratuitousness that bothers me. If it's used for an actual purpose, then fine.

All I can figure are two things: first, that it's a moé director at a moé studio and that's just the house style that's familiar; and second, a lot of this anime's subject is harder than most, so the "conventional" designs of the five girls, each with their experience in different parts of the industry, offer several entry and attachment points for viewers who wouldn't otherwise consider themselves interested in a high-realism anime about... well, anything.

That's not an excuse for the stylistic clash, but it's certainly a decision I understand making.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Discussing this with my gf, she raised a couple of good points, namely that most of the guy charachters are based off of real people in the industry, so that means that there's a needed sense of realism there. Also in general there are a lot less women in the industry that they can base people off (apart from seiyuu), and there's also a sense of bishi-ness (I think) from Taro and that glasses guy.

 

Also, moe does sell. If you look at the shirobako posters & advertising that are put in the Japanese anime mags like Newtype, you'd be forgiven if you get completely the wrong impression as to what the anime's about. (Warning, NSFW)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also in general there are a lot less women in the industry that they can base people off (apart from seiyuu), and there's also a sense of bishi-ness (I think) from Taro and that glasses guy.

 

I did like the moments, especially as the show ended, where we got to see the more female-dominated side of production, especially tweening and coloring. I'd liked to have seen more, but it's definitely not as glamorous even as being a production manager, so we don't have an abstractly aspirational girl to serve as a window into there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All I can figure are two things: first, that it's a moé director at a moé studio and that's just the house style that's familiar; and second, a lot of this anime's subject is harder than most, so the "conventional" designs of the five girls, each with their experience in different parts of the industry, offer several entry and attachment points for viewers who wouldn't otherwise consider themselves interested in a high-realism anime about... well, anything.

That's not an excuse for the stylistic clash, but it's certainly a decision I understand making.

Discussing this with my gf, she raised a couple of good points, namely that most of the guy charachters are based off of real people in the industry, so that means that there's a needed sense of realism there. Also in general there are a lot less women in the industry that they can base people off (apart from seiyuu), and there's also a sense of bishi-ness (I think) from Taro and that glasses guy.

 

Also, moe does sell. If you look at the shirobako posters & advertising that are put in the Japanese anime mags like Newtype, you'd be forgiven if you get completely the wrong impression as to what the anime's about. (Warning, NSFW)

Ok I'm done after marathoning the final 10 episodes today.

I get where Gorm and NS are comming from here with the whole moe sells line of reasoning but did they have to lay it on so thick in places.

What your GF brings up is intresting NS, and I sorta agree with her that the introduction of Taro's grumpy friend helped a little, the whole based on real people thing also actually makes it worse for me in some ways, it's like saying here is the reality of a male dominated industry & here is the unreality of women being part of it.

Anyways I should go to bed very soon and will probably have more thoughts once ive had time to mull it over, they finished well and overall I'm more positive than I thought I'd be howeve...

I do think that introduction of 'shy baby key animator chan' is utterly irredeemable, she was so utterly unreal and tropey I couldn't stand it when she was on screen,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do think that introduction of 'shy baby key animator chan' is utterly irredeemable, she was so utterly unreal and tropey I couldn't stand it when she was on screen,

 

My friend, who's involved with animation and film, is actually exactly like her, so what bothered me about her (albeit to a much lesser degree) was not her cringing silence, but that she found a voice in the company after the most superficial encouragement from one of the main characters. That's not really how it works.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My friend, who's involved with animation and film, is actually exactly like her, so what bothered me about her (albeit to a much lesser degree) was not her cringing silence, but that she found a voice in the company after the most superficial encouragement from one of the main characters. That's not really how it works.

It probably didn't help that I had been watching the first few episodes of Watamote last week, which for all its flaws hits uncomfortably close to what real anxiety can be like.

This however.... just felt totally contrived, I mean there's a difference between being shy or having anxiety issues and being utterly unable to form coherent words. She just seemed to be there to show her senior in a good light, and to have cheap jokes made about her.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It probably didn't help that I had been watching the first few episodes of Watamote last week, which for all its flaws hits uncomfortably close to what real anxiety can be like.

This however.... just felt totally contrived, I mean there's a difference between being shy or having anxiety issues and being utterly unable to form coherent words. She just seemed to be there to show her senior in a good light, and to have cheap jokes made about her.

 

I don't disagree with you. Her depiction is definitely hyperreal in a way that's easy to find distasteful. I'm honestly not interested in defending her, because I don't think I care as much as you. Hopefully you can gather your thoughts and post more later!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I feel like in the last few weeks I solidified my thoughts on moe.

 

I think for any visual media, a character's appearance and design forms the bedrock of any person's understanding of the character as time goes on. When the audience has to reconsider or refactor the way that they interpret any character, they go back to first impressions and visual cues, along with all the unconscious baggage that those come with. This is unavoidable. My issue with moe is that it's an extremely strong visual trope designed to be disarming and endearing, which is going to be the touchstone for any moe character regardless of their actions or traits.

 

A straight A honors student is smart and capable to offset the lack of intimidating features. A cold, quiet girl is so in contrast to her babyish looks. The most bloodthirsty, coldhearted, dangerous killer is going to be that despite the fact that she's adorable and looks like a high school girl. That modifier is going to exist no matter how hard you push on the former part. This base, immutable feature of the character taints every subsequent impression the audience has of that character, and the fact that it's used to disarm and endear so liberally, so perfunctorily, and almost exclusively on women, creates a situation where you can have a cast of extremely dynamic characters that have a variety of extreme traits, nuances, and strengths, and it all sums up to a set of characters that have no character weight and consequently no gravitas because of their base line of damning, disarming, adorable appearance and personality. It's a set of barbie dolls packed with all sorts of accessories.

 

Moe does this because the design trope has way more characterizing weight than anything you can balance it out with. Making a character moe without looking at how it affects its impression just feels like overseasoning a dish. Even if you can make the most delicious fois gras in the world, coating it in paprika will make it only taste like paprika. But if you've had your tongue coated in paprika for the last ten years, you'll probably stop tasting it. It makes sense that it takes someone who's watched a lot of anime to be able to discern the subtle plots and interactions that could possibly be in there, and why it's so hard for people just getting into anime to see why it's not just lonely nerd bait. It's why it's so separate from what people would consider mainstream culture, and I think it's an example of an industry collectively racing to the bottom. It might be obvious but I think that the industry's reliance on merchandising and selling sex/moe is self perpetuating.

 

Then there's the issue where it's only female characters that are given such a strong treatment, which makes male characters have a more liquid subconscious impression and seem more like actual human beings, the implications of which are just ugly.

 

Anyway this is probably not universal to everyone and my rambling is probably too authoritative in tone so I'll apologize in advance.

 

TLDR; moe is a really really really strong visual touchstone that can water down any subsequent personality trait if used gratuitously.

 

EDIT: wow that was a long and abrasive post for something I could have summed up in a more compact, less pretentious sentence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Eh I think your post came off fine, don't worry about it.  Have you seen Gundam SEED BTW?  Everyone looks the same in that show except for extras and older guys getting narrower eyes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Discussing this with my gf, she raised a couple of good points, namely that most of the guy charachters are based off of real people in the industry, so that means that there's a needed sense of realism there.

So this is sort of the prelude to a longer post but here we go anyways. There's a great book called 'Understanding Comics' by Scott McCloud within which there's a chapter which talks about cartooning part of the vocab of comics and in specific a technique called masking (where highly iconised charcters are placed in realistic settings) in a way which feels like it mirror that sentiment exactly.

post-24580-0-44286700-1428277699_thumb.jpg

post-24580-0-96624300-1428278760_thumb.jpg

In some ways there's a argument to be made that those characters you talk about as being based on real people are drawn in a realistic style not just because they need to resemble the people they are based upon but so that they are very much a 'other' part of the world building as much as the scenery where the audience surrogate characters exist.

While this doesn't wholey excuse why there are so few women who are portrayed realistically. It can offer a partial explanation for the clash which I felt so jarring initially.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel like moe has crossed the line from plausible abstraction of a human being into platonic ideal territory, since its defining features achieve more than let the audience project themselves onto the design. You can achieve the Understanding Comics effect without deliberately giving a character puppy dog eyes, a small mouth, a sexed up physique, and an arsenal of cute qualities.

 

21.jpg

 

The most extreme moe design isn't solely an abstraction of the human figure to help the audience project onto the character. That effect can be achieved with the most minimal abstractions

 

syhwbuz7jkdcb5nkzcbx.jpg

 

while retaining a sense that the design reflects specific human features. The reasons behind this

 

nishimata-aoi-faces_8348.jpg

 

probably have nothing to do with avoiding objectification.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah as I say I don't think it can fully excuse the excessive misuse of Moe but it may offer some insight into where it evolved from, and where perhaps it can be used without being utterly unpalatable.

Someone who is a 'other' is by definition never fully understandable, and by extension never fully predictable and maybe even a little threatening.

Moe & it's associate character sub types feels like the very opposite of this, a comforting set of fully knowable templates, who's behaviour is predictable and therefore entirely unthreatening.

As you put it no matter what this person does or says subsequently it's incredibley hard to break the mould from which they are cast.

There have been some shows which have actually made really good use subverting it though, The most recent of which I can think of is "From The New World" which basically had very Moeish Male and Female designs used which are used as a short hand for youth and innocence in a utopia like idylic setting but who's actions and relationships never quite fit how you'd expect them too and who's world slowly breaks apart.

b4befa6e58687a64462a3511062bbfe113488587

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Moeblobs always kind of remind me of the ongoing equivalent trend in western animation of depicting female characters with the exact same childlike features: heart-shaped face, large almond-shaped eyes, and a very small nose and mouth set very low on the face. It not only looks bad from a visual standpoint, it's creepily infantilizing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think a major problem is just the Calarts 3D modeling style pervading all of those studios is generally ugly, bland, soft, and predictable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah as I say I don't think it can fully excuse the excessive misuse of Moe but it may offer some insight into where it evolved from, and where perhaps it can be used without being utterly unpalatable.

Someone who is a 'other' is by definition never fully understandable, and by extension never fully predictable and maybe even a little threatening.

Moe & it's associate character sub types feels like the very opposite of this, a comforting set of fully knowable templates, who's behaviour is predictable and therefore entirely unthreatening.

As you put it no matter what this person does or says subsequently it's incredibley hard to break the mould from which they are cast.

There have been some shows which have actually made really good use subverting it though, The most recent of which I can think of is "From The New World" which basically had very Moeish Male and Female designs used which are used as a short hand for youth and innocence in a utopia like idylic setting but who's actions and relationships never quite fit how you'd expect them too and who's world slowly breaks apart.

 

Thank you for your succession of excellent posts, Codicier. Right now I feel wholly unequal to the task of hosting a podcast, even in part, because you've said everything that I wanted to say, only in a much more literate way.

 

I agree that moé is most often overused because it is a easy signifier for creators, marketers, and fans that an anime is of a certain type, which makes its misuse a self-legitimizing path to success. I can't really go into much more depth than that, because barring a few terrible shows that I've sat through because I'm stubborn (two seasons of Chuu2Koi being the main offenders) I haven't really seen much out-and-out abuse of moé as a stylistic choice. Almost always in the shows I like, it's either being used intentionally to enforce a specific kind of audience reaction through a generic and non-threatening character or to promote high-level masking, like Codicier says.

 

I also think that there is increasing pressure, thanks to the CG animation boom in anime, to augment the amount of detail and motion in anime without allocating the time and money to do it, so the designers and animators cut corners by adopting a rigid preset style, among which moé is by far the most codified. Again, laziness, but that's not at the doorstep of moé itself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for your succession of excellent posts, Codicier. Right now I feel wholly unequal to the task of hosting a podcast, even in part, because you've said everything that I wanted to say, only in a much more literate way.

 

I think you would do well :)  You seem knowledgeable about the topic (anime), and hosting is more about letting people speak and making sure the topic changes to keep the conversation moving anyways.  Kind of like interview in a way, host provokes good responses out of guests.  Obviously to do that, knowledge on the subject matter helps and I think you have plenty for that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you would do well :)  You seem knowledgeable about the topic (anime), and hosting is more about letting people speak and making sure the topic changes to keep the conversation moving anyways.  Kind of like interview in a way, host provokes good responses out of guests.  Obviously to do that, knowledge on the subject matter helps and I think you have plenty for that.

 

Thanks! I don't mean to sound like I'm begging anything off, because I'm really committed to this. The few people I know to whom I've told our podcast plans have congratulated me, because I always have a lot to say about the medium but not much of an audience.

 

Speaking of, I edited the liveblog for the first episode of The Disappearance of Nagato Yuki-chan that I posted here, adding pictures and a bit more sensical commentary, for my blog. I like it a lot, and it'll probably get double the usual hits just because I bothered to capture my own screenshots.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for your succession of excellent posts, Codicier. Right now I feel wholly unequal to the task of hosting a podcast, even in part, because you've said everything that I wanted to say, only in a much more literate way.

If those posts were in anyway excellent much of the credit for it lies with Blambo and N1njaSquirel(& his GF) for providing a excellent rant and anecdote to use as lens from which to view my at the time far less coherent emotional response.

That & Scott McCloud Understanding Comics is probably the most important book to me in terms of the formation of my overall attitude to artistic craft in all mediums and to critical commentary itself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now