anime

[Blambo]

What specifically do you dislike about the plotting? I'm mean as you say the efforts they aimed at children definitely share a common core of theme's and tropes that they build their narrative around, but I'm not sure how much of a problem I feel this is(or else every single western film based on some variation of the heroes journey is in deeeep trouble), I mean it's entirely possible to do interesting things with tropes  and some of the little ways Ghibli did subvert them feel significant both considering their intended audience and when they were produced. Many of those strong, capable, young protagonists are female, and it was rare their conclusions were unambiguously happy, often featuring concepts like loss and death which you still don't see much in works aimed at children.

 

Is there one of them you think is a "prime offender", one which you think hits all the red marks you mention? 

 

Because I don't feel you're wrong at all, it just feels like perhaps they are no worse in their reliance on tropes than 99% of the works that address a similar audience, and better in some important ways.

 

 

Ah the feeling is very vague I guess, and now that I think about it it's the same feeling I get for a lot of media aimed at children. I think it's coming from fantasy for fantasy's sake, or having a fantastical setting or elements eclipse the need for a coherent artistic goal. The Cat Returns is a big offender I think. It just strikes me as the story of Spirited Away tacked onto a cat world shtick. Not to say that Spirited Away had a bad plot, it's just that the nuances in its representation and art really fit the story's themes and texture in a way that feels like it has more value beyond its story. Howl's Moving Castle feels similar.

 

Also yeah I think I like where it deviated from and transcended traditional children's media as well. The moral ambiguity and female presence is amazing. It feels like they impart a lesson of empathy/considering perspective without being explicit about it, and I wouldn't be surprised if this had a greater effect on me as a kid than now.

 

And as Tegan says, #NotAllGhibli. I think I'm expecting the same out of every film from that studio based on the one I like the most at the moment, which is Only Yesterday. I saw it once when I was younger after seeing Porco Rosso and thought it was boring, and now I saw it again and think that Porco Rosso is shallow and flashy. But that's just me.

 

But anyway. Miyazaki's last effort, The Wind Rises, is pretty baller and definitely in my top three or so of his films. It does kind of sweep the moral quandaries of war under the rug though, which is pretty out of character.

[namman siggins]

Wind Rises was a good film, but I disliked the film's treatment of Nahoko Satomi: as just a totem of inspiration for Jiro and dying to further move the plot and Jiro's art. 

Also, how it deals with art: as this thing that can be separated from what it's used as. I know that was one of the main themes of the film, but I feel Miyazaki thinks that art can without any context(?) maybe. I need to re-watch it and flesh my ideas out.

 

And speaking of Ghibli, I was talking to Tegan yesterday, and we both agreed that Isao Takahata's films are the best. Takahata's films are better than anything that the Miyazakis have done and have the level of nuance and storytelling chops that you wish the Miyazakis could do. This was further enforced when I saw The Tale of the Princess Kaguya this month. 

 

[Blambo]

I think miyazakis thesis on that is that in posterity, art can survive the death of its context, whether that's a good thing or a bad thing isn't really treated in the film. The Mitsubishi Zero is actually a really interesting piece of engineering divorced from its being used to further a brutal war effort, but you really have to try hard to tear yourself away from its history and connotations to view it as one would view the pyramids.

And I guess my attitude toward art is different from yours. I feel like you can divorce it from its use and context if you approach it from a certain mindset, and that one perspective or context doesn't define a work universally. That said "divorcing" a work from its context also isn't universal, it's just that a specific, subjective viewing of the work can be like that. It's important to consider art from every angle you can.

Also I don't think that Miyazaki argues in the film that human suffering for the purpose of great works is preferable, but he sort of lightly brushes off the issue.

I had read somewhere that Jiro was actually a nationalist, so I wonder how much that factors into his representation.

[Gormongous]

I think miyazakis thesis on that is that in posterity, art can survive the death of its context, whether that's a good thing or a bad thing isn't really treated in the film. The Mitsubishi Zero is actually a really interesting piece of engineering divorced from its being used to further a brutal war effort, but you really have to try hard to tear yourself away from its history and connotations to view it as one would view the pyramids.

And I guess my attitude toward art is different from yours. I feel like you can divorce it from its use and context if you approach it from a certain mindset, and that one perspective or context doesn't define a work universally. That said "divorcing" a work from its context also isn't universal, it's just that a specific, subjective viewing of the work can be like that. It's important to consider art from every angle you can.

Also I don't think that Miyazaki argues in the film that human suffering for the purpose of great works is preferable, but he sort of lightly brushes off the issue.

I had read somewhere that Jiro was actually a nationalist, so I wonder how much that factors into his representation.

 

I enjoyed The Wind Rises immensely, but I have trouble getting over the degree to which Miyazaki fictionalized the life of Horikoshi Jiro with details from his own father's life. I feel that the end product ultimately justifies the deliberate inaccuracies, but it's still uncomfortable that Miyazaki's essentially dressing a portrait (and, to some extent, a defense) of his father, who made the rudders for the Mitsubishi Zero, in the guise of a more famous and historically relevant figure. It doesn't feel right to me, especially since he already made My Neighbor Totoro to understand his father's role in and guilt from the war anyway.

[Blambo]

Whoa what's that about Totoro?

[Gormongous]

Whoa what's that about Totoro?

 

One of the dominant interpretations of My Neighbor Totoro (but certainly not the exclusive interpretation) is that it's Miyazaki re-imagining his own childhood in a more "feminine" world where the Second World War wasn't happening, his parents had daughters, and his father was a literature professor at a university. Most of the other biographical details are virtually identical to Miyazaki's early life, particularly his mother's tuberculosis, and there's some kind of significant pun with the little girls' names that I can't remember now (ah, "Satsuki" and "Mei" both signify May, a month seen as both the perfect time of the year and as a metonym for growing and flowering, as opposed to violence and destruction). I think all the parallels and their connection to the Japanese concepts of satoyama and furusato are covered here, in an interesting albeit not terribly well-written article.

 

Basically, by setting My Neighbor Totoro in an idyllic rural setting pervaded by a traditional (but not militaristic) Japanese culture, Miyazaki was attempting to rehabilitate his family's history from the more modern and urban developments of the twentieth century. That's mostly why I'm surprised that he made The Wind Rises as a much more literal (but still not explicit) reevaluation of the same themes.

[tegan]

My favourite bit of weird nerdy trivia is knowing that the guy who created Earthbound played the dad in My Neighbour Totoro.

[namman siggins]

My favourite bit of weird nerdy trivia is knowing that the guy who created Earthbound played the dad in My Neighbour Totoro.

Holy shit! I did not know that. 

[tegan]

Hey peeps watching Parasyte: I haven't seen it yet. Does the anime still contain the part where the dude's arm turns into a dick?

[Twig]

haha what

 

No that hasn't happened yet but the dude's arm did try to masturbate the dude while standing at the urinal next to another guy.

[Cyborg771]

No, it did turn into a dick but it was motion blurred to all hell and we only saw it for like 3 frames. It was the scene in the gym storage room Twig.

[Cyborg771]

One of the dominant interpretations of My Neighbor Totoro (but certainly not the exclusive interpretation) is that it's Miyazaki re-imagining his own childhood in a more "feminine" world where the Second World War wasn't happening, his parents had daughters, and his father was a literature professor at a university. Most of the other biographical details are virtually identical to Miyazaki's early life, particularly his mother's tuberculosis, and there's some kind of significant pun with the little girls' names that I can't remember now (ah, "Satsuki" and "Mei" both signify May, a month seen as both the perfect time of the year and as a metonym for growing and flowering, as opposed to violence and destruction). I think all the parallels and their connection to the Japanese concepts of satoyama and furusato are covered here, in an interesting albeit not terribly well-written article.

 

Basically, by setting My Neighbor Totoro in an idyllic rural setting pervaded by a traditional (but not militaristic) Japanese culture, Miyazaki was attempting to rehabilitate his family's history from the more modern and urban developments of the twentieth century. That's mostly why I'm surprised that he made The Wind Rises as a much more literal (but still not explicit) reevaluation of the same themes.

 

The interpretation I'd most often heard for Totoro was that it referenced a well known case where two young girls went missing and turned up dead. Totoro is a kind of grim reaper easing souls on and the Cat Bus being the portal into the afterlife. Here's a short article on the interpretation. http://kotaku.com/5926248/totoro-isnt-all-cute-for-some-hes-the-god-of-death

[Twig]

Oh yeah you're right.

[BadHat]

I'm trying to figure out why I like ghibli films so much. In general their stories are really badly plotted and paced, basically the same characters and plots appear in each movie (young protagonist goes on a coming of age journey with a cute animal/cast of eccentric yet empathetic characters, usually including an gentle parent, boistrous townspeople, an enthusiastic younger character to look after) and sometimes the entire premise is weird and bogus, usually serving to give a shade of a reason for the occasionally interesting designs. Save for the films by Takahata (Only Yesterday is the most non ghibli film in the ghibliverse and is amazing), the only thing that's left for me is the mystery, world building, and art/animation. Also I guess the thing I most like about them is their attention to mundane detail and focus on little moments of character, even in the most sweeping fantastical pieces.

What do you guys think of this kinda stuff?

 

My opinion of Miyazaki has deteriorated with his more recent films. I loved Mononoke and Spirited Away, but Howl's frustrated me to no end (I watched it again later to try and reevaluate and hated it even more) and everything after that just bored me. Ponyo in particular cribs so heavily on past tropes that I have no idea how someone could enjoy it going in fresh unless they were very impressionable (so... the target audience, I guess >_>). Arietty was, at least, very consistent and clear in its storytelling, even if it was totally forgettable. I can't help but notice that the animation has gotten blander over time as well, with Wind Rises being probably his worst looking film (imo), but I guess that could be due to many things.

 

The interpretation I'd most often heard for Totoro was that it referenced a well known case where two young girls went missing and turned up dead. Totoro is a kind of grim reaper easing souls on and the Cat Bus being the portal into the afterlife. Here's a short article on the interpretation. http://kotaku.com/5926248/totoro-isnt-all-cute-for-some-hes-the-god-of-death

 

FWIW, this interpretation has been discredited by Miyazaki.

[Twig]

Howl's Moving Castle is my favorite! Well, maybe Laputa is, not sure. I don't like Mononoke much at all. Spirited Away is all right, though, fun to watch, for sure. Porco Rosso is also near the top. Ponyo I didn't much care for. I think that's all of 'em I've seen.

[namman siggins]

I have a confession to make:

I fell asleep during Totoro and have never seen it in its full.

[Blambo]

Honestly the dominant pattern here seems to be that people like the first Miyazaki film they see and the second or third ones get kind of old, and that makes sense to me in terms of the target audience, the amount of time in between films, and their roles as eye candy and visual expression first and foremost.

The thing I enjoyed about Howl's Moving Castle is the small scale fantasy that seems to be present in folklore and goofy TV shows, ie a young woman turning into an old lady or a house that has a seamless transporting door. The rest of the movie is kinda weird and overreaching to me.

[Twig]

My first Miyazaki film was definitely Spirited Away, Nausicaa. I forgot about Nausicaa in my original post - I like it, but I don't think it fits in with the rest of the Miyazaki films. I think Mononoke is similarly Not Like The Rest. They're, I dunno, dirtier, grimmer? Maybe I'm wrong. Been a while since I saw 'em.

 

And then Mononoke and then Porco Rosso and then Laputa and then Howl's. I think that's the vague order I watched it in. Howl's was definitely near the end of the list (besides Ponyo), if only because I distinctly remember being happily discovering that there was another movie I could watch and it had a giant walking castle.

 

Anyway I like Miyazaki although I don't go out of my way to watch his stuff.

 

I also have a sweet little Howl's Castle statuette thing. It's awesome. It has tiny little compartments that would hold nothing of value! Oh and I have a Laputa robot musical statue. Since those are my two favorite Miyazaki films.

[dium]

Miyazaki is masterful, but never in particularly new or interesting ways. That sums up my opinion of him.

 

I don't dislike any of his movies (that I've seen), and there are a couple that I adore (Mononoke Hime and Porco Rosso). But I have friends who think he's absolute garbage and I can't really argue with their reasoning at all.

[Ozzie]

My favorite of his is Kiki's Delivery Service. Howl's Moving Castle was ruined for me by the ending. I can't recall how it actually ended, but iirc it made it seem like there wasn't much conflict before at all, like it only seemed that way.

The story is never complex or very inventive in a Miyazaki film, but what happens from moment to moment, in the background and foreground and at the fringes of a scene, is.

[Twig]

Oh yeah Kiki's Delivery Service. I think that's the only one I saw dubbed. I forget everything about it other than little girl on a broomstick, so I guess that speaks more about my impression of it than anything else I could say.

 

And Totoro, I don't know why I forgot that one. I like that one.

 

You know I have a list of all anime movies and series I've watched, you'd think I could just look that up.

[dium]

You know I have a list of all anime movies and series I've watched, you'd think I could just look that up.

 

Is this a weirdly common thing to do, keep an Anime list like this? I do this (well, used to). I think it was to remind myself that there's been anime that I really liked and to keep trying new stuff, since most of the time I try to watch new anime I get depressed and retroactively decide all anime is hot garbage.

[namman siggins]

My first Miyazaki film was Mononoke. I came across it while channel surfing. I was new to the anime world--Vampire Hunter D was my intro--and I was watching anything I could at the time.

So when I came across it, I was enthralled by it. I ran to whatever blank tapes I had, put it in my VHS and started taping. I never knew that animation could be as amazing as what I was watching. Growing up with GI Joe and the like--I saw them as re-runs, not when they came out--was my childhood idea of animation could be. Then out-of-nowhere anime like Vampire Hunter D, Akira, and Mononoke came into my life and just blew me away. It was those three--plus a mixture of Cartoon network's 90s shows and Pokemon/Monster Rancher--that put the love of animated movies in me. Just writing this out I'm awash in childish glee and nostalgia.

And like most artists, Miyazaki's older works are better than his newer. I love Porco Rosso because of its aviation and studio system film feel and Nausicaa because of it's Métal Hurlant, 70s Sci-Fi comic and Moebius vibes and aesthetics. The more I think about it, it's the Moebius aesthetics that the film has, as why I fucking love it so much; you can see Moebius's line everywhere in that damn film; it's practically a tribute to their friendship and his work!

[Twig]

Is this a weirdly common thing to do, keep an Anime list like this? I do this (well, used to). I think it was to remind myself that there's been anime that I really liked and to keep trying new stuff, since most of the time I try to watch new anime I get depressed and retroactively decide all anime is hot garbage.

I dunno! I just do it because I'm weird and love keeping track of all the things I do. I love in-depth statistics in my activities. Which is hell when I think "oh I should add another column to this Google spreadsheet" and I don't remember when I actually watched all these things for the first time and end up not doing it after all. ):

[Twig]

ugh fuck shit goddamn every episode of parasyte ends on a note that makes me want more RIGHT NOW GIVE IT TO ME RIGHT NOW