BUY games? what are you, stupid?

Farbror · August 5, 2004

All right, I´m on vacation, and using one of these super-expensive hotel-computers, so I´ll try to be short.

First of all, as I said, All I´m tryuing to state here is that Piracy is immoral, and if you do it, I can´t stop you or convince you.

Oh my God, there´s really nothing here for me to say, everyone else is saying it so good! Piracy is worse than I used to think! Ha! In your face, pirates!

Okay, that was childish, sorry.

Gah, stupid german keyboard, all the buttons are misplaced!

JBRAA · August 5, 2004

Why don't Idle Thumbs make a feature out this? It would be interesting.

If I had paid for all my games, I couldn't afford to continously upgrading my system, and then I couldnt buy anymore games.

Also, many people have more important things to pay for than high priced games. Those people probably wouldn't ever have bought the games, therefor if they download them, there is no loss in sales!! Period.

People with the urge to help out the gamecompanies, are just fine, but it's their money. The gamesbusiness won't die if you stop paying so much.

You are not a leach if you don't pay. They are the leaches for their seriously high prices. Period.

Also, non-game programs like Adobe Photoshop. A person who downloads that program, learns it, eventually get a design degree, get a design job, and wants to work with that program at work, is making a good thing for in this case Adobe, cause the designfirm pays for their licenses.

In that case downloading, not paying in the first step, will get the softwarecompany sales in a later step.

There is never a loss in sales, if you never would have bought the game. Period. And there is not a loss in any other way either from downloading.

And those who compare downloading games with cartheft, you are a hillbilly.

Chris · August 5, 2004

Saying "Period." all the time doesn't help your case. I still don't agree with the stuff you're saying before "Period.".

JBRAA · August 5, 2004

Saying "Period." all the time doesn't help your case. I still don't agree with the stuff you're saying before "Period.".

I know you don't agree, and that cool. With my above statments I have a very good case. And that's period.

Intrepid Homoludens · August 5, 2004

You're talking about the big picture, the big picture doesn't concern me.
On the other hand, I do care about myself...

For someone as self-righteous as you, declarations like this don't really help your case when you're railing against others for their opinions and actions.

Chris, that wasn't a declaration, that was another fashion statement. [proceeds to beat Kingzlebub with a wet noodle]

I confess that i did download BG&E, but after completing it (and having loved it absolutely) i felt so guilty about the poor sales that it was getting that i went out and bought it and am now playing it again.
Mind you, I think that's a first.

You did that?! Oh, I love you I wanna have your babies! ..... :erm: ..... .... :grin:

Farbror · August 7, 2004

Noonne has yet managed to explain how downloading good games (or bad games for that part) helps the good game survive. True, the stupid people out there will buy the bad games, but you're not really helping by downloading the good ones.

Let me quote myself:

If you don't think it's worth paying for, then don't pay for it, and make it without it! It's capitalism! It's what the world is built on! If you feel that these scissors are to expensive, then you don't steal them, do you? And you don't walk up to the counter and say, "Hey, could I get these scissors for free? I mean , they're so expensive." or even "Hey, could I have these scissors at only 5 dollars instead of 50? I mean I think that's what they're worth." You wouldn't do that? You would go and buy some other pair of scissors! You wouldn't for the world ever touch those scissors again, you would let the forces of capitalism do their job and force the scissor-company into bankruptcy! But if it's a game, then you see it all as an excuse to steal it! What's so different beetwen scissors and games?

Shortly, if you feel that something isn't worth it's price, don't buy it, buy something that is, and if you so desperately want it, then it should be worth paying all those money for!

And the whole "Weren't going to pay for it anyway"-thing, I see no logic in it at all. Just like any other consumer-commodity, you should only get to use something if you pay for it. To expand on the scissors above, you don't either say "I wasn't planning to pay for these scissors anyway, could I have them for free?"

Of course you don't. Why is games so different?

n0wak · August 8, 2004

RE: the music comparison made dozens of posts ago and the argument that music is sold for a far lower price than games.

1) which do you think has a higher market base? Music or video games? Celine Freaking Dion probably sold just as many albums as all Final Fantasy games combined.

2) music does not just make profits from the sale of albums -- there are also concerts, licensing (lots of licensing -- soundtracks, commercials, functions, compilations), royalties, AND merchandising. Music merchandise, no doubt, brings in far more than game merchandise.

3) Music doesn't age as severely as games. I just bought a *new* album yesterday that is about 20 years old. The artists see this money. How many 20 year old games do people buy new? (ones that haven't been ported to the GBA, at least)

4) People were buying music just as they are now before the first video game was ever sold. Give the game industry some time to mature first. The greater the penetration rate that it achieves, the lower the relative prices will get. Competition does that.

5) The music that you buy is, more or less, standardized. You buy a proper CD album, it will play in any proper CD player. The games industry is not standardized. So, unless you are multiplatform (which costs MORE money), you are able to reach only a percentage of the market.

And so on and so on.

(also: hi Walter!)

Wormsie · August 8, 2004

I don't understand why people here seem to live in some kind of denial. Yes, I have downloaded "Sam and Max: Hit the Road", and got a pirated copy of Max Payne from my friend. And it's morally wrong. I'm a bad bad person.

Chris · August 8, 2004

1) which do you think has a higher market base? Music or video games? Celine Freaking Dion probably sold just as many albums as all Final Fantasy games combined.

Of course, Celine Dion probably has more albums than there even ARE Final Fantasy games...

MrHoatzin · August 8, 2004

I don't understand why people here seem to live in some kind of denial. Yes, I have downloaded "Sam and Max: Hit the Road", and got a pirated copy of Max Payne from my friend. And it's morally wrong. I'm a bad bad person.

Where is your avatar from? It looks awesome.

Redwall · August 8, 2004

Apprentice II

http://herculeaneffort.adventuredevelopers.com/

Wormsie · August 14, 2004

Where is your avatar from? It looks awesome.

Meh!

It's from Apprentice II http://herculeaneffort.adventuredevelopers.com/

TheBoss · June 25, 2005

Question: Are games are stupidly overpriced?

Titanic cost $200,000,000 to make, but I can buy it on DVD for $24.95 or VHS for $12.95.

I'm sure every big "pop" CD costs millions in advertising - (Britney promoting her ass off, and endless TV adverts, posters, billboards, magazine adverts the world over etc, not to mention the cost of actually recording the thing - studio, producer, mixer, sound engineer, musicians, writers, backing singers)

Yet Britney's latest "opus" is available on CD for $13.49 and $14.99 on DVD.

Doom 3 I'm sure cost a fraction of $2 billion but could have broached the million dollar mark (not sure) to make and I have to buy it for $54.95.

The way i look at it is, all these media products made profit, and in order for that to happen, the workers who produced it must have been underpaid for their labour to create a profit margin for the company they work for.

Therefore, me paying for games, music or movies that have been made in this manner would only be encouraging inequality and the exploitation of individuals by big corporations to make profit. By downloading something for free i am recognising the talent of the artists (who are judged on the quality of their products and not paid on commission), but deterring companies from exploiting others for their personal benefit.

I lie, cheat and steal... but for the right reasons

SiN · June 25, 2005

Therefore, me paying for games, music or movies that have been made in this manner would only be encouraging inequality and the exploitation of individuals by big corporations to make profit. By downloading something for free i am recognising the talent of the artists (who are judged on the quality of their products and not paid on commission), but deterring companies from exploiting others for their personal benefit.

You realize buying games also funds the artists behind the game, right? I mean, game developers DO get cuts out of the overall sales of a game if it makes enough money. By not buying games, you're telling the developers, "Gee, I really like your games, but fuck off anyway!".

I lie, cheat and steal... but for the right reasons

You're also full of shit. Don't try to justify stealing, because at the end of the day, it's still stealing.

SiN

TheBoss · June 26, 2005

You're also full of shit. Don't try to justify stealing, because at the end of the day, it's still stealing.
SiN

It's called sarcasm moron, would you like me to spell that for you? yes i realise that i have already typed it out but i wasn't sure if you'd catch on.

Despite the fact that my post wasn't serious, your counter-argument was hardly earth shattering. "You're also full of shit" :clap: - thankyou for that wonderful insight, y'know as i was typing i didnt once stop to ask myself "am i full of shit", come to think of it i've completely changed my mind, that's sarcasm again btw (S.A.R.C.A.S.M).

I was just getting over that bombshell when you knocked me down with "Don't try to justify stealing, because at the end of the day, it's still stealing" - genius! you should write that down incase a man with a loaded gun ever asks you to prove you're worthy of living.

So you're saying stealing, lying and cheating are never justified? (off topic what is it like living in black and white? don't you find it makes it hard to co-ordinate what you're wearing?) what about a poor man stealing a loaf of bread to feed his starving family? Plato once said that a lie is justified if it is for the greater good of the people - but how can you trust him, he probobaly never played a computer game in his life.

People keep saying "it's capitalism, either pay for it or go without" - well capitalism stems from Liberal and individualist doctrines based on utility maximisation. They state that it is human nature to gain the most that you can out of any given situation - how can something be universaly and undeniably wrong if it is human nature?. Even basic free market economics tells you that black markets arise when the price for something in real terms exceeds the utility gained from it, they will continue to exist until the producer drops the price to a level where the majority are satisfied, allowing action to be taken against the minority who continue to operate against the law - THAT'S CAPITALISM!

manny_c44 · June 26, 2005

So in essence...

Jake · June 26, 2005

The way i look at it is, all these media products made profit, and in order for that to happen, the workers who produced it must have been underpaid for their labour to create a profit margin for the company they work for.

No. If anything doom costs $55 while a Britney CD costs $15 because for every 1 person who buys a copy of Doom3, about 30 people buy the Britney CD. Also games are probably priced as high as they are simply because we keep buying them.

TheBoss · June 26, 2005

No. If anything doom costs $55 while a Britney CD costs $15 because for every 1 person who buys a copy of Doom3, about 30 people buy the Britney CD. Also games are probably priced as high as they are simply because we keep buying them.

Jake i understand what you're saying but that's not the point i was trying to make.

Lemme give you an example, say a sweater sells for 30$ in a shop and the raw materials used to make it cost 5$, the labour used to make it is therefore worth 25$. In order to make a profit, the company who employs the labourer must therefore under-pay them e.g it only pays the worker 10$ and keeps the remaining 15$ as profit.

I know this is a very simplistic and basic example but the point is, profit can only be made if someone else loses out, if you want a proper explaination it is called the theory of surplus-value, type it into a search engine or something.

P.S. i'm not saying i don't like with capitalism, the free-market e.t.c. but i at least have the guts to admit that it's fundamentally unfair

MrChlorophyll · June 26, 2005

When you first saw that, did you tuck it away deep in your brain just in case such a need for it arose, such as this?

manny_c44 · June 26, 2005

No, it actually arose from a frantic, random-word google search. :grin:

SiN · June 26, 2005

It's called sarcasm moron, would you like me to spell that for you? yes i realise that i have already typed it out but i wasn't sure if you'd catch on.

I've read your first post over a couple of times now. It's three paragraphs of you justifying why you feel fine stealing games. I just don't see the sarcasm in it. Admittingly, perhaps hearing you say your post would have led me to believe differently, but in text, it looks like a serious justification. I just dont see it.

So you're saying stealing, lying and cheating are never justified?

Yes. Let's stick with stealing in particular. In my opinion, you can never quite say, "I stole this and that isn't a bad thing". Stealing, regardless of what it is, is always morally wrong. However, sometimes it is done. I've stolen stuff, you've stolen stuff, everyone has stolen stuff! The difference between you and I then, is that I never claimed it to be morally okay. I know what I did was wrong, but I did it anyway. I'm not trying to convince anyone otherwise. That's my opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

Lemme give you an example, say a sweater sells for 30$ in a shop and the raw materials used to make it cost 5$, the labour used to make it is therefore worth 25$. In order to make a profit, the company who employs the labourer must therefore under-pay them e.g it only pays the worker 10$ and keeps the remaining 15$ as profit.
I know this is a very simplistic and basic example but the point is, profit can only be made if someone else loses out

I don't quite see how this is a bad thing or unfair. Surely the company deserves profits? Surely the fact that the company employes people, builds factories, purchases the machines used to make these sweaters, gives the employees benifits, etc, etc deserves some money?

If the employee really wanted all $25 of the profit, he could simply quit his job, make sweaters at home, package them and sell them himself. But that's just not feasible.

Maybe I've missed out on something here (I dont claim to know anything about economics, just Computer Science), but your justification isn't making any sense.

SiN

Tanukitsune · June 26, 2005

Here piracy is out of control, Spain has the highest piracy rate in Europe and it specially affects music. We have something called "Top Manta" (Top Blanket) we an illegal immegrant sells pirated music and movie on a blanket, a blanket that has these ropes he can just pull to make it into a sack and run for it when the cops arrive...

1 out of 4 music CD is illegal in Spain the news say, how can they tell? But I do believe them when they say we are nº1 in piracy in Europe. I am the only one who has everything legally, I'm the only person I know that legally owns Windows XP, Office (97), and all the other programs, althought I don't have much music I own it all legally and of course I legally own every game I have.

I've managed to find most of the old games I wanted pretty cheap on Ebay, and I usually wait for a games price to go down before buying it, unless it's a game like Psychonauts or Zelda...

A game costs more than it does to make a CD/DVD, you have to add transport, manuals, progamming, testing, etc, etc...