The Sims and Girls

[lailoken]

oh for fucks sake! this will be the last damn time i am trying to make an interesting statement on this site! at least treesus was getting my point. then i am being arbitrarily prosecuted by Yufster for no less than 5hours while trying to clarify the meaning of my first post and now i am the bad guy when i point out that in fact i am capable of explaining myself and using the right words because i "crossed a line" in stating that women are not capable of understanding the whole functonality of the male psyche? if I would state the inverse (male female) would the reaction be the same? and why is it not possible to believe that social angst is a big part of modern life? in a world that is constantly driven to urban isolation. where we have more and more single households. but no, because i step on a girls toes somebody thinks he has to step in as the knight in shining armor and without any access to objectivity or the attempt of getting a clear view of the situation, you (duncan) sweep in and clarify everything by making me out to be the bad guy?

and i had such high opinions of people in this forum...

i feel insulted and deeply misunderstood! but i guess it doesn't really matter because i only made what 40 posts on this forum so far, so hey i don't have any cred.... forums always the same.

granted it is a rather dark view of the industry, but these reactions are just unreflected, thoughtless banter and nothing else.

EDIT: I for once would never dare to believe myself capable of understanding the female psyche as well as a woman! If a woman was to point that out to me I don't think I would threaten her with physical violence in order to prove my point, but rather concede that this is probably merely a selfevident truth and would try and use the opportunity to learn -if nothing else- what point of view this woman might have.

[Duncan]

I didn't intend to sweep in and clarify everything. I was pointing out - and this was something quite obvious - that whatever your argument, you were losing just a little credibility with 'oh yeah and for a cute lil irish girl you sure are trouble...tststs'. That, I think, is being an asshole.

[lailoken]

oh so that is being an asshole? i thought i was merely trying to introduce some much needed levity to the discussion since yufster has from the beginning taken the whole thing much too personal. in general i like her and the posts she makes! i even really like the game she wrote! if anything this was meant as a kind of complement for her clinging stubbornly to her point! so yufster if you have thought this was some kind of an insult i do apologize!

i have been perusing the forum tonight (and this morning ) quite thouroughly and like i said really like your posts in general, however i do have the feeling that you are constantly on my back trying to get a rise out of me! at first i thought it was merely the usual rite of introduction to a forum, but now i am not so sure anymore. and to state that you HATE me? i definitely think this is going too far. so if you think i am actively aggressive towards you ... all yours... bye

EDIT: But i do think the fact that this has been going on for this long can be at least to some extent used to excuse the rudeness of my comment. not completely but at least to SOME extent (whatever it may be )

[Salka]

I for once would never dare to believe myself capable of understanding the female psyche as well as a woman! If a woman was to point that out to me I don't think I would threaten her with physical violence in order to prove my point, but rather concede that this is probably merely a selfevident truth and would try and use the opportunity to learn -if nothing else- what point of view this woman might have.

How come it didn't occur to me at any point to tell you the reason you're not understanding me is because you lack a female perspective? Trying to end any argument by saying the other person doesn't understand because they're female/male is full of shit. No matter how you meant it.

It also doesn't help your case saying things like;

I just don't care enough to clarify myself to those who choose to misunderstand me... (could this be my problem with women )

I find your view on the topic rather cute and naive.

oh yeah and for a cute lil irish girl you sure are trouble...tststs

because i step on a girls toes somebody thinks he has to step in as the knight in shining armor

Why the patronising comments such as 'cute and naive'? Why did you constantly have to remind yourself and everybody else that I'm female? I really don't understand why you felt the need to bring it up over and over again in some form, unless you really have some deep seated issues.

We were having an argument, a debate. How come Duncan's opinion isn't just his opinion, but an attempt to 'ride in like a white knight' because you insulted a girl? How did you even fucking come up with that?

It's pretty fucking lousy to use gender as a weapon of debate against somebody.

If you want to sort things out, fine. But I'm going to be completely honest; I'm too angry, indignant and stubborn to take any first steps. And going to be even more honest; I just broke my Mom's favourite mug. Oh well. Guess she shouldn't have given it to me on such a windy morning, eh!? HA HA HA! Ahhh.

[Ameerasu]

Lai and Yuf sorry to be rude or whatever but stop shouting at each other

http://carcino.gen.nz/images/index.php/00b9a680/463c5922

[lailoken]

yufster i can't send you a PM you have to make some space first

[Salka]

Man, that's not even funny.

Couldn't you have joined on ANY OTHER DAY? Or first-posted in ANY OTHER THREAD? Why now? Why the only time in the world I'm not being nice... or pretending to be nice at least.

Usually I'm really endearing and entertaining and thoughtful and kind and generous and and popular. And cool. That's me, usually. You caught me on an off day is all. But from this moment on, I'll be ordinary me. Just like the real me that everybody here knows so well.

Like this:

Hi, Ameerasu! Welcome to Idle Forums! I do so hope you enjoy yourself here. We all get on great, and have some really interesting and thought provoking discussions on a regular basis, like, almost daily. Every weekend we all take flights out to New York and meet up and sing songs to each other and cradle each other in our arms while we go to sleep, and while other people are sleeping we do things like pull the blanket over their shoulders so they don't get cold, or push their fringe out of their eyes so their eyes don't dry up and turn into little colourless dehydrated button mushrooms in the night. We also write poetry about each other.

Like this:

If I could choose to be anybody

Anybody in the world at all

I'd choose to be Harry Potter,

With awesome magic and all,

Then I'd come and post here

Because I hold y'all dear,

My wonderful friends on Idle Thumbs

You idle wankers, you lazy bums.

EDIT: Inbox empty, poetry remixed.

[Duncan]

If I could choose to be anybody

Anybody in the world at all

I'd choose to be Harry Potter,

With awesome magic and all,

Then I'd come and post here

Because I hold y'all dear,

My wonderful friends on Idle Thumbs

You idle wankers, you lazy bums.

...Oh my God, that is too funny. Also weird.

You didn't rhyme anything with 'Potter', though. And rhyming 'all' with 'all'? What's up with that?

[Ameerasu]

Well i read this for quite a time now and never felt provoked to use my bad english skills in an internet discussion but , ahh what the heck.

Hello all.

Its the same here as with everything else that kills time

Once you start you cant stop.

[Salka]

Man, shut up, Duncan! Nobody would ever have noticed!

Your English skills are great, Amee.

[lailoken]

ME = HAPPY AGAIN!!! :clap::clap::clap:

I LOVE THIS PLACE

(thanks to loonyboi for pointing it out to me... and i'd like to thank my makeup artists... :\ ... and yufster for being a sport)

[Chris]

Um, hooray for, uh, Idle Thumbs...

[Salka]

Bugger off. Nobody asked you to get involved.

[Ameerasu]

Eeeeeek, back to the Topic

So, i have my own theory about girls and games.

Letz start with some experience I have with girls and gaming.

My sister for example is a Diablo2 addict.

I was too but there is a great difference about how we played the game.

My sister just loves to play and play and play the game finding new items giving her char a new outfit playing thy story and so on.

When I started to play the game (long before my sister did so ) I was aching for competition. Playing the story was dull for me and i never had the nerve of collecting almost every available set in the game. My mission was to create a char that beats as many other chars as possible in PvP.

The same thing can be experienced with most girls in MMORPGs. While most guys in DaoC ( yeah i stopped beeing addicted to Diablo2 and and CS only to find someting new ) start with RvR = Realm vs. Realm equivalent to PvP only much more massive , as soon as they can get to it, girls are more fascinated by the whole quest thing and storyline. You can see the difference quite clearly in the Realm Points (you get them when you kill players in rvr areas) gathered by toons owned by girls. They are usually much much much lower than with those chars played by guys.

SO, conclusion:

Girls love storyline and making something grow.

Guys like competition and everything that might have a devastating effect, be it on monsters or much better "enemies".

[DanJW]

SO, conclusion:

Girls love storyline and making something grow.

Guys like competition and everything that might have a devastating effect, be it on monsters or much better "enemies".

Nah, I prefer storyline and growing stuff. Competition for Uber-l33tness sake gets boring for me.

[lailoken]

I agree, I love seeing how a character develops and especially dig non-competitive coop, but I guess I am the exception. (and treesus of course is exceptional anyway )

[baconian]

i usually read all the new posts before I post myself, but I just gotta say something here.

the girls and games discussion and the sexist (ha!)discussion that it always spawns are both essentially the same thing.

The one point that I would make is that (a) Yufster is an individual who likes games and is really cool. ( girls are people too. © angst is not exclusively a male thing. (d) violence is fun if it is in fun. (e) (a) to (d) above all say the same thing, and if you don't already understand that, you're a dumbass.

[DanJW]

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?pt=IZMZoxUzwPMhvmZIyM6y9R%3D%3D

An excellent article by Stevan Pinker, following the much maligned address by the Harvard President Lawrence Summers. It's basic point is that men and woemn can be different and yet still equal.

Lailoken and Yufster, I expect you to both read this carefully. There will be a test.

[General Fuzzy McBitty]

I believe I mentioned this earlier, but there was an artical in Electronic Gaming Monthly on "Hitting Her Game Spot" which broke down ways to get girls to play games.

If I get my scanner working I'll post it... (or would that be illegal??)

Basically it said that the reason girls like games like the Sims is because they aren't bothered by repetitive tasks as much as men.

I'm not sure I buy it, mostly because men psyco analyzing women is scary and dangerous.

Later, when I'm less lazy, I'll post some quotes.

[Fairygdmther]

It has long been noted that males are more competitive than females - numerous psychological studies have documented this. In fact the correlation seems to match testosterone levels. This is the modern day version of marking your territory, and repelling invaders.

In games like The Sims, where there is no boss fight at the end, and in fact there is no endgame, this is understandably more appreciated by females than males, though many guys have played it, but soon get bored by the minutia of day-to-day management of their people. Since women bear the onus of child-rearing, as a rule, this get-them-up, make-them-eat, make-them-bathe, make-them-go-to-the-toilet, get-them-off-to-school/work is so much like real life as to be seen as a natural part of life. Of course women will connect with this more than men. And since it is non-competitive as well, it again points to the estrogen-producers rather than the testosterone-producers, as noted above.

I agree that women are becoming less casual in their gaming habits, even if they don't share the same likes and dislikes as their male counterparts. There are many young women, who grew up with gaming, who tend to share the same likes as the guys, but for women as a whole, this is not the case. Maybe it has to do with a woman's initiation into the computer gaming realm.

I got my first computer in 1986, and in 1987, at age 40, went to a computer programming school to program Assembler and Cobol for IBM mainframes. There were many young women doing this, but I was a complete anachronism, both in school and working as a programmer. There were plenty of guys my age and older, but very few women.

Each of us has our own subjective tale to tell, but we need to see the big picture. Women gamers are on the rise, and as a whole, don't want FPS or RTS games. They are attracted to casual online games, adv games and RPG/MMORPG games. As far as the issue of consoles - women who've raised kids see these as for the kids. Many of these women learned to use PC's with their work, and are already comfortable with this environment. Console gamepads, whose button use changes for each game, seem unnecessarily complex. I need to say here, for the record, that I own an Xbox and PS2, and have played Halo, and beat it, Max Payne, didn't finish that, DOA, GTA3, etc. Many of the women I meet in forums think I'm weird (they're probably right!), and can't see the attraction. As I said, subjective experience doesn't negate the big picture.

I don't think it is wrong to break down games into guy games and women's games - there really are differences - not better or worse, just different. My first venture into the gaming forums brought my attention to the numbers of female players of adv game; with further exploration of the forums, I've been pleasantly surprised to see so many guys who like them as well. There are no hard and fast rules, but only trends. And the market of 35+ women getting into gaming is the current trend, and one we need to capture, to bring in more gamers and therefore more revenue to the genre.

FGM

[Moosferatu]

It has long been noted that males are more competitive than females - numerous psychological studies have documented this. In fact the correlation seems to match testosterone levels. This is the modern day version of marking your territory, and repelling invaders.

err... really? Most of the women I know are quite competitive. While, I'm one of the least competitive people I know. Are you implying that my testosterone levels are low then?

To me, most generalizations like that are worthless. I would say all, but then I'd be making one myself.

[Fairygdmther]

err... really? Most of the women I know are quite competitive. While, I'm one of the least competitive people I know. Are you implying that my testosterone levels are low then?

To me, most generalizations like that are worthless. I would say all, but then I'd be making one myself.

Moos - I'm not implying anything of the sort - do a google search on testosterone and competitiveness and read it for yourself. I didn't do the studies, I've just read about them.

Also, there have been studies that todays young men do have lower testosterone levels, perhaps due to environmental influences - there are many chemicals that break down to estrogen-like substances and get into the drinking water. I certainly couldn't say if any of this may/may not apply to you personally.

FGM

[Moosferatu]

I was, you know, joking. I don't really care if you think I have low testosterone levels or not.

[General Fuzzy McBitty]

Moos - I'm not implying anything of the sort - do a google search on testosterone and competitiveness and read it for yourself. I didn't do the studies, I've just read about them.

Also, there have been studies that todays young men do have lower testosterone levels, perhaps due to environmental influences - there are many chemicals that break down to estrogen-like substances and get into the drinking water. I certainly couldn't say if any of this may/may not apply to you personally.

FGM

Not having to hunt and trap or learn how to kill someone with a sword could also be a reason why testosterone is dropping.

Think about it. Evolution is a very slow process, but chemically we are very simple creatures. In the last 100-150 years man has had to do a lot less of the things that he used to. I would like to see a study about testosterone levels in non industrial nations.

I would also agree that I'm not a big fan of competition. I'll admit that I still have a leaning to compete, but over all, I'd like to see some more alternatives in gaming out there than "shoot everything." Sure it's fun every now and again, but it's getting to be a tired act.

If the sims wasnt so damn expensive, I'd buy it.

[Fairygdmther]

Not having to hunt and trap or learn how to kill someone with a sword could also be a reason why testosterone is dropping.

Think about it. Evolution is a very slow process, but chemically we are very simple creatures. In the last 100-150 years man has had to do a lot less of the things that he used to. I would like to see a study about testosterone levels in non industrial nations.

I would also agree that I'm not a big fan of competition. I'll admit that I still have a leaning to compete, but over all, I'd like to see some more alternatives in gaming out there than "shoot everything." Sure it's fun every now and again, but it's getting to be a tired act.

If the sims wasnt so damn expensive, I'd buy it.

There are differences between industrial and non-industrial countries, but there are so many differences, too: different food eaten, different activity level, environmental exposure to noxious chemicals, even different clothing (as I'm sure you know, constricting clothing can cause problems).

As far as the Sims - PM me with your address - I have an extra copy of the original Sims, still sealed in box - I'll send it to you - it's only gathering dust here.

FGM