Sign in to follow this  
Duncan

The Sims and Girls

Recommended Posts

I'm part of this informal club over at Four Fat Chicks where we get together to play games using a thread called "Never Mind the Bollocks". We post our progress, problems, etc. 3/4 of the players are women. Most are probably 35 or older. They kill with relish. Discuss frag gernades in KOTOR, ways to blow the catedreals in Fallout. Which corridor to check out in SS2. How to creep into a building in the newest Thief. A couple play Sims but has a rule it's a dead subject. Most just want exicting gameplay with half-way vivid characters. Most started on adventures and now find them lacking. Some of these women build their own computers, to varying degrees of success. Others play little known Japanese RPGs. In fact Sims discussion in the last year has arisen only once.

They, women, want what everyone wants. To be involved at a human level. To be part of something rewarding. I play as well and more often then not end up somewhere in the 50th percentile ablity wise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"Some of these women build their own computers, to varying degrees of success."

Now that is refreshing. Almost the only thing which I've never heard of a women being into is PC hardware. I'm not quite sure how far I'd believe you though. Hmm, if they build their own PC's... are any of them overclockers? Have any of them fiddled with memory timings in the BIOS, or unlocked the disabled pipelines in their graphics cards? I'm still thinking the answer would be no, but I'd honestly be delighted if it wasn't...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IMO one of the huge problems as someone already pointed out lies at the development level. thinking about who makes games leads to the question of what do you need to know to make games and that leads to programming knowledge to some degree. i don't know any women who would spend their time and youth to getting behind all that stuff... well maybe some, but rather few... so it is mostly guys who have nothing better to do and to some degree, motivated by social rejection, isolate themselves in their own world. playing pen and paper roleplaying games and delighting at acquiring greatness in a world free of harsh criticism and the ever-existent boundaries of their lack of social skills (to some degree) and the feeling of alienation. i think the feeling of silent dread and anxiety paired with puberty has a lot to do with it. these people (among which to some degree i count myself) go on to create the games that we play today and found out that they can actually live this dream of not only creating their own worlds and making money with it. but because of their limited social interactions and (i wanna say hatred?!) contempt for the general public (enter anything john doe says in "se7en") they create games that "they wanna play". these games will be very heavy on the immature and simplistic side with a tendency to gross generalizations (just like this post ;)) and will have little to no appeal to women especially, because they don't factor in those lives apart from unattainable "objects" of unknown specification :chaste: .

I think that in those regards the majority of games still has a long way to go in an industry where "mature" is rather used to describe games with explicit content, rather than something that would be engrossing and demanding to play.

as for the sims (yey, ON TOPIC !!!) I think it just really shows that the game was created by a man and not a boy in disguise. There are more of these like Peter Molyneux, Tim Schafer, Sid Meiers... as opposed to guys like John Romero (sorry), John Carmack (sorry again) and so forth... we still need to see the true "coming of age" of gaming on a broad basis and that then would possibly lead to a) really lousy, commercialized games (enter Electronic Arts) and B) a higher rate of acceptance through games that actually are mature. I am not saying that there are no games like that at the moment, just that they are far and few in between.

To me the greatest appeal of the sims is that it is not based on (science-) fiction or fantasy (which again are boundaries to a lot of new gamers ["what's this stuff about aliens?That's a bit immature isn't it?"]) and has a easily grasped gaming concept at its heart that can be understood without any introduction.

I guess this is already way too much, sorry :chaste:

BTW: Treesus, you do know that objectivity does not exist in a world that is defined by subjective perception ;) [More or less Immanuel Kant]

WHEW I almost forgot! Of course all of this is gross generalization and all that stuff but you really can't get anywhere without making assumptions on some level about human nature ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IMO one of the huge problems as someone already pointed out lies at the development level. thinking about who makes games leads to the question of what do you need to know to make games and that leads to programming knowledge to some degree. i don't know any women who would spend their time and youth to getting behind all that stuff... well maybe some, but rather few... so it is mostly guys who have nothing better to do and to some degree, motivated by social rejection, isolate themselves in their own world. playing pen and paper roleplaying games and delighting at acquiring greatness in a world free of harsh criticism and the ever-existent boundaries of their lack of social skills (to some degree) and the feeling of alienation. i think the feeling of silent dread and anxiety paired with puberty has a lot to do with it. these people (among which to some degree i count myself) go on to create the games that we play today and found out that they can actually live this dream of not only creating their own worlds and making money with it. but because of their limited social interactions and (i wanna say hatred?!) contempt for the general public (enter anything john doe says in "se7en") they create games that "they wanna play". these games will be very heavy on the immature and simplistic side with a tendency to gross generalizations (just like this post ) and will have little to no appeal to women especially, because they don't factor in those lives apart from unattainable "objects" of unknown specification .

Whoa! Are you kidding?!

Game Designers are motivated by social rejection, and want to achieve greatness to overcome their lack of social skill, are spurred by dread and puberty, and they only create games that they want to play because they hate the general public?!??? And since women don't factor in their lives they make games that don't appeal to women!?? Because to them, women are simply 'objects of unknown specification'?!

That's the craziest thing I've ever heard. Can you name a couple of designers that you got this idea from? Or what tabloid newspaper/womens magazine?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

wow how did i see that one coming yufster... lame... but then i guess you wouldn't understand! I have to admit that one of the inherent problems of writing something like this leaves a lot to be desired in terms of good writing. I just don't care enough to clarify myself to those who choose to misunderstand me... (could this be my problem with women ;)) :fart:

But in general that is obviously only a part of the development community I am talking about. In terms of maturity a lot has changed with the advent of the job of game designers. But I think we are still at a stage where computer games are still dominated by technology aspects and therefore to some extent controlled by the people responsible for its execution, i.e. programmers. people like the game designers i named as GOOD examples in my earlier post are obviously part of a movement into the right direction. at some point, when technology will become unsignificant for the success of a game the focus will return to gamedesign and artdirection. that's when i think we will see a new era of gamedesign in general. but alas we are not there yet and i fear that it will take a while till fotorealism is a reality ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You see, usually, when you post on a discussion thread, and somebody counters or questions your opinion, you defend it and back it up, not just throw around remarks like 'lame' or 'how did I see that one coming'.

I think what you said was ridiculous, and I said so. Can you come up with examples of such game designers as the ones you described? This time, without the pre-teen 'come-back'? It's a proper discussion and I'm sure you're more than capable, if you put your mind to it.

EDIT: Congratulations for editing your post and making it worthwhile.

IMO one of the huge problems as someone already pointed out lies at the development level. thinking about who makes games leads to the question of what do you need to know to make games and that leads to programming knowledge to some degree. i don't know any women who would spend their time and youth to getting behind all that stuff... well maybe some, but rather few... so it is mostly guys who have nothing better to do and to some degree, motivated by social rejection, isolate themselves in their own world. playing pen and paper roleplaying games and delighting at acquiring greatness in a world free of harsh criticism and the ever-existent boundaries of their lack of social skills (to some degree) and the feeling of alienation. i think the feeling of silent dread and anxiety paired with puberty has a lot to do with it. these people (among which to some degree i count myself) go on to create the games that we play today and found out that they can actually live this dream of not only creating their own worlds and making money with it. but because of their limited social interactions and (i wanna say hatred?!) contempt for the general public (enter anything john doe says in "se7en") they create games that "they wanna play". these games will be very heavy on the immature and simplistic side with a tendency to gross generalizations (just like this post ) and will have little to no appeal to women especially, because they don't factor in those lives apart from unattainable "objects" of unknown specification .

I would still like you to give some examples of where you drew this sad conclusion from, and where exactly I 'misunderstood' you.

wow how did i see that one coming yufster... lame... but then i guess you wouldn't understand! I have to admit that one of the inherent problems of writing something like this leaves a lot to be desired in terms of good writing. I just don't care enough to clarify myself to those who choose to misunderstand me... (could this be my problem with women )

Why wouldn't I understand? And if you're going to bother attempting to post your opinions on an internet forum where people with bother to read it and discuss it, surely you SHOULD care enough to clarify yourself?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

see i was not talking about "game designers" but rather people that fill that function as well. And I think the general overflow of FPS without so much as a glimpse of real storyline is proving that my point does have some validity. I never proposed that this was true for all developers but merely sighted that this is a phenomenon common to game development. It is my opinion that because of the current development where it appears to be the case that most publishers are rather willing to spend money on a sequel than on new IP, we are bound to repeat the faults of the past and not evolving into more mature games faster.

My reaction to your post is merely me giving up the hope of you actually once accepting anything I say. It seems that you just love to hate me. And I am merely resigning myself to that fate ;)

(and no I am not a native speaker, go figure)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ok yufster! so... well what should i clarify? that there is a phenomenon broadely accepted as teenage angst? that there are young men who grow up in our marketing besieged society feeling left out and alienated by popular opinion? that science fiction and fantasy does mostly appeal to young and adolescent men? that most pen and paper roleplaying people are young male adults? that most programmers are male? that most games are focused on sci-fi and fantasy? that men are more prone to violence? that a lot of male fantasies are centered around violence? that it is to SOME extent a valid conclusion that violence in games is a result of male dominance in the industry? WHAT EXACTLY WOULD YOU HAVE ME CLARIFY FOR YOU?

quite honestly i do not have the time nor the patience to explain all of this to you if you appear to be so ignorant to it. to be ignorant is one thing, to be proud of it and defend that ignorance is another entirely. I find your view on the topic rather cute and naive. but then again, that is just my opinion and what do I know, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
general overflow of FPS without so much as a glimpse of real storyline is proving that my point does have some validity.

Your point being that Game Designers/in the games industry are motivated by social rejection, and want to achieve greatness to overcome their lack of social skill, are spurred by dread and puberty, and they only create games that they want to play because they hate the general public, and since women don't factor in their lives they make games that don't appeal to women because to them, women are simply 'objects of unknown specification'? An overflow of FPS with no real storyline tells you that's a valid point? Why?

see i was not talking about "game designers" but rather people that fill that function as well. And I think the general overflow of FPS without so much as a glimpse of real storyline is proving that my point does have some validity. I never proposed that this was true for all developers but merely sighted that this is a phenomenon common to game development. It is my opinion that because of the current development where it appears to be the case that most publishers are rather willing to spend money on a sequel than on new IP, we are bound to repeat the faults of the past and not evolving into more mature games faster.

I don't know where you're from, but in this country the young people going in to programming courses, and indeed people that have graduated from them in the past decade, are happy, smart and intuitive people, and certainly have no more or less skills in social interaction than people going in to any other course. They have no more or less social hatred or don't view women as unobtainable objects any more than any other people.

It still sounds like you're talking rubbish. You also seem to have deviated from your original point, which is the one I disagree so strongly with. But I'm having a hard time trying to separate your paragraphs, so I can't really tell.

My reaction to your post is merely me giving up the hope of you actually once accepting anything I say. It seems that you just love to hate me. And I am merely resigning myself to that fate

I don't hate you, I just disagree with pretty much everything you say. Not because I want to, but because we obviously have very different opinions on things.

(and no I am not a native speaker, go figure)

Then I apologize for any remarks I may have made about how difficult it is to understand you, but I thought paragraphs were a universal thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ok yufster! so... well what should i clarify? that there is a phenomenon broadely accepted as teenage angst? that there are young men who grow up in our marketing besieged society feeling left out and alienated by popular opinion? that science fiction and fantasy does mostly appeal to young and adolescent men? that most pen and paper roleplaying people are young male adults? that most programmers are male? that most games are focused on sci-fi and fantasy? that men are more prone to violence? that a lot of male fantasies are centered around violence? that it is to SOME extent a valid conclusion that violence in games is a result of male dominance in the industry? WHAT EXACTLY WOULD YOU HAVE ME CLARIFY FOR YOU?

quite honestly i do not have the time nor the patience to explain all of this to you if you appear to be so ignorant to it. to be ignorant is one thing, to be proud of it and defend that ignorance is another entirely. I find your view on the topic rather cute and naive. but then again, that is just my opinion and what do I know, right?

Man.

WHAT EXACTLY WOULD YOU HAVE ME CLARIFY FOR YOU?

a) where am I misunderstanding you in my original post?

B) where are you drawing the conclusion from that most people working in game design are social rejects with a contempt for the general public blah blah blah?

I find your view on the topic rather cute and naive

a) I haven't told you my opinion on the topic, I have merely disagreed with one point you made, or may not have made, but you don't even seem to know.

B) Cute? Naive?

that is just my opinion and what do I know, right?

Right.

You're not answering the first question I asked, you're simply moving on to other, completely irrelevant topics of conversation. Do you even know what you're talking about?!? I don't see how any of what you posted since I asked that question is relevant at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am sorry but it is clearly YOU who is not making a single point! most games do have fantasy, sci-fi driven plots and/or scenarios and that to me shows that the industry is male driven to a big extent. you are being purely reactionist (as all the quotes you use annoyingly prove) and i regret ever entering into any resemblence of a conversation with you... phew

EDIT: wow and answering your first question, no I am not kidding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yay to lailoken for getting my point! :D

(NB as for objectivity, yes it is unatainable but should no less be striven for. I thought this was so obvious that I didn't post it :) .)

Yufster, If you need an example... Prince of Persia: Warrior Within. Also, I have met many people in the industry who match lailoken's description. You will not have heard of them and I am certainly not going to do them disservice of naming them.

Maybe this really is a purely male thing. Ever notice those lonely guys at school who you didn't notice? No, I didn't think so. Perhaps it's part of this whole "sense of male futility in the 21st century". Oh, and yeah most of the 18-year-olds now going into programming degrees probably are happy and adjusted, but it wasn't like that 10-20 years ago, when the current crop of game-makers were entering adulthood.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yufster, If you need an example... Prince of Persia: Warrior Within.

I am plenty aware of crap and/or disappointing games. I would like an example of these incredibly sad males that are apparently entering the game industry in great abundance to make games because they hate people. I also went back through my posts in this thread and HIGHLIGHTED in bold EVERY SINGLE TIME I asked this question.

If you think POP is an answer, it's not. You can't say that the people working on POP:WW were social rejects just because the game wasn't good, or as good as it could have been.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

John Carmack is definitely one of them, in fact in a lot of ways he is the prototype ;) well he used to be before he grew up anyway... essentially IMO you can take anyone with glasses and sort of a "I don't wanna care about the way I look [and i couldn't]" kinda thing going on...

oh and they don't REALLY hate people, but they don't feel accepted/loved and overcompensate...

oh and BTW Yufster, I am not stereotyping programmers and/or developers in general, but there are a lot of those ... and I hate being so discriminating, but I think part of the reason why you have such a hard time understanding this whole thing might be because you lack the male perspective... i know a lot of women who can't believe the sick shit that is going on in men's brains

EDIT: I forgot to mention the archetype for the discribed being: Bill Gates!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

John Carmack has never been my favourite designer, true. But first of all I said for you to give an example of a designer, and you said you were talking more about the programmers working on the games than the designers themselves. Now I asked for an example of any of of these guys, and you give me a single game designer.

But is there anybody else? I can't just say that all Movie Directors are gay just because Bahz Luhrman is, and maybe some other guy.

And Bill Gates isn't even IN the game industry. That's like me saying all movie directors are gay because Baz Luhrmann is, and so is George Michael. Or something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yeah but this goes beyond just designers, this is a whole generation of men! open your eyes! ... or maybe rather not, it's not a pleasant sight after all... also it's just part of the whole gaming community... to a certain extent. If you see any industry inside reports... you will see them... sitting behind their computers writing code... whooooooaaaaaahahahahahahaa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ohhh ho ho ho.

oh and they don't REALLY hate people, but they don't feel accepted/loved and overcompensate...

So d'ya think the 'misunderstanding' might have been because you used the words 'hate' and 'contempt' instead of 'don't feel accepted? Any other words you forgot to mention you didn't mean to use?

but I think part of the reason why you have such a hard time understanding this whole thing might be because you lack the male perspective... i know a lot of women who can't believe the sick shit that is going on in men's brains

Why don't you fuck off? Basically, NOW the reason I don't understand you is because I'm female? For some reason, that has never occurred to ANYBODY else here to say, ever. That is the lamest excuse. Because I'm female? Fuck you. Fucking fuck you.

Before I just disagreed strongly with you, now I hate you. Do you understand that if you had said that to my face in a non-internet situation, I would have punched you in the stomach? If any of the guys here, even the guys I know, had said that to my face, even if somebody I respect said it to me, I'd stamp on their toes at the very least.

I realize you said 'a lot of women can't believe the sick shit blah blah blah' at the end of that sentence. Whatever your justification is for saying or thinking it, fuck you, you arrogant little prick.

Here are some other reasons I might not being understanding you, other than being female;

a) Reading what you write is like trying to untangle a piece of thread.

B) You accidentally used words that meant completely different things from the words you apparently meant to use.

c) You keep skiving around the primary question I was asking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And by the way, giving one game designer, and another unrelated person who doesn't even seem to have any social difficulties as far as I'm aware apart from the fact he is now stinking rich, as a reply to my question... and then just saying, "The industry is full of them!" as though it's fact? That's not a valid answer!

Movie directors are mostly gay because Baz Luhrman is, and so is George Michael. Oh, and also, because they're all gay.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am sorry but all your answer does is show me that you have no idea what you are talking about! Bill Gates doesn't have social problems? Take Gabe Newell, John Romero, Richard Garriot, Demis Hannabis the guys at Crytech, just because I don't know all the names of all the designers doesn't make me any less right or you any less argumentative and defensive!

And finally, you just DON'T UNDERSTAND! AND I CAN'T MAKE YOU, SORRY!

in fact I am probably as sorry, as you are angry...hmmmm

i suspect it is my fault for even trying.... so well I guess you are right and I am wrong ok?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
B) You accidentally used words that meant completely different things from the words you apparently meant to use.

where have i done that?

Accidentally using words that meant completely different things from the words you apparently meant to use:

but because of their limited social interactions and (i wanna say hatred?!) contempt for the general public...
oh and they don't REALLY hate people, but they don't feel accepted/loved and overcompensate...

Two very different things. Hatred/contempt isn't some kind of insecurity, as you seem to be suggesting in the third quote. This was one of my biggest problems with your original post. Did you mean it? Or not? Did you choose the right words? Too bad, because that's one of the biggest problems I had with your original post, your claim that they make crap games that only they will like because they have a contempt for the general public.

So the have a contempt, possibly a hatred for the general public... but then you change your mind and decide that well, no, but they don't feel accept or loved, and they merely overcompensate. This is what I mean when I say you use words that you apparently didn't mean to use. So you changed your mind about them hating the public? Good job, too. It was kind of ridiculous.

Since people like John Romero helped give the industry such a kickstart in many ways, they're still prominent figures. However, they came in when game design as a career was a lot different. Yes, they're immature and socially questionable. But if they tried to get into the industry now, as newcomers, I bet they wouldn't get far.

I don't think that people, especially not nowadays, get into game design because they're social outcasts. Maybe you get a lot of immature and uncreative people at the front of the pack, people like John Romero and John Cormack, who as far as I know are both self-taught programmers. Man, back in those days, of course pretty much the only people going in to games were people that were geekish enough to spend hours teaching themselves this stuff. Now there are college courses from Progamming to Game Design itself, even 3D animation, if people want to get in to the game industry. It's matured a lot.

It's not just a handy career for social outcasts that want to tell a story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yes? so what is the problem for christ's sake?

oh yeah and the idea with the PM was to try and NOT clutter the thread with this discussion, so why didn't you answer me with a PM?

oh yeah and for a cute lil irish girl you sure are trouble...tststs

EDIT: Also to possibly help who ever was right and who was wrong keep his face, alas...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh I see you dragging this whole thing into the open is now my fault... how inventive...

Why don't you fuck off? Basically, NOW the reason I don't understand you is because I'm female? For some reason, that has never occurred to ANYBODY else here to say, ever. That is the lamest excuse. Because I'm female? Fuck you. Fucking fuck you.

Before I just disagreed strongly with you, now I hate you. Do you understand that if you had said that to my face in a non-internet situation, I would have punched you in the stomach? If any of the guys here, even the guys I know, had said that to my face, even if somebody I respect said it to me, I'd stamp on their toes at the very least.

are you serious? are you twelve years old?

But BTW I can see how all those poor developers really need you to defend them! ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

oh and i meant to use exactly each and every word i used, if you have problems with any of them try using a dictionary?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even though it's clearly not a good idea to step in here, I thought I should just point out that your 'game developers are making games because of pent-up social angst' has lost all credibility by this point. Also, you're being an asshole.

EDIT: (Not you, Yufster.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this