Rob Zacny

Episode 441: Rob & Bruce & WWI

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Three Moves Ahead 441:

Three Moves Ahead 441


Rob & Bruce & WWI
This week Dr. Bruce Geryk, Sommelier of the Somme, guides Rob through several unconventional takes on WWI combat. Usually written off as "trenches are boring", World War I poses a challenge to the game designer. Bruce guides us through several examples of how to do it right. Get ready for talks about "historicity", which should not be confused with the classic Police album, "Synchronicity". Some say it's their greatest album, but I'm more partial to Ghost in the Machine, myself.

Paths of Glory, The Lamps are Going Out, Fields of Despair

 

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I truly appreciate your tackling PoG, but I have to say imo your discussion about the flaws in PoG in regards to the German strategy of pulling back behind the Rhine is out of date, both because of tweaks to the game in my Historical Scenario and the WBC Tourney scenario (which will be included in the latest reprint), but also because play among the sharks continued to evolve and even without those changes it was no longer considered a sure thing.  (That's putting aside the entire question of whether such a strategy, which was favored in the late 19th Century by Moltke the Elder and during the war by Max Hoffmann, is itself unrealistic.)

Anyway, my two cents. Again, thanks for talking about PoG.

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Hi Ted, 

 

Thanks for posting (and listening)! In my opinion, while the “retreat beyond the Rhine” strategy may become de-emphasized over time, it will always be relevant because

 

(a) it exists

 

(b) it became a major (and potentially decisive) line of play for at least the decade after the release of the game, and probably longer

 

(c) the fact that it has possibly been surpassed at the elite level (which is a handful of players at most) does not mean it cannot be used effectively against non-elite players who may not be aware of it

 

(d) Players who own previous versions of the game don’t have the changes

 

In the end, the discussion is more about comparisons between games than any specific criticism of the “retreat behind the Rhine” strategy - in fact, as you say, it might even be a historical “feature” rather than a game flaw. But I think the fact that a game designed with such attention to historical detail ended up developing a major line of play that is completely coubterfactual is a significant point in discussions of WWI simulation gaming and cannot (and should not) be avoided.

 

Again, thanks for your response!

 

-Bruce

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great podcast, thanks for this guys.

 

I've not played much in the way of strategic WW1 (does diplomacy count? i hope not)

 

I have been tempted by PoG but put off by its reputation as a sharks game. My main wargaming opponent isn't interested in it since he played once against a shark and suggests its a game where you have to know what you are doing and make no mistakes. Is this fair?

 

Lamps are going out doesn't sound that great.

 

The only WW1 games I can remember playing are Somme 1918 from Nuts which I found a bit process heavy and Raciers Clash of Giants II which also didn't rock my world but I did like the narrative tweak of rolling to see how many casualties you lost rather than your opponent. To date I've not really found a WW1 game i've liked though the topic does interest me.

 

 

I appreciate that it takes a whole weekend but the format of playing three games and comparing them works really well.

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PoG is a shark's game only if you are playing a shark. I think it safe to say that if newcomers couldn't enjoy it, it wouldn't be going into its 6th printing. The only thing all newbies need to keep in mind is at the start of every round make sure you have a continuous front in any area where the enemy can reach. The supply effects for allowing the enemy into your rear are intentionally brutal.

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Lots to love about this episode. Primarily I am impressed that you put so much effort into learning and playing some important and varied WW1 games, it was no small commitment. The level of discourse was also high considering that you are not WW1 experts. It was easily the best piece I have ever heard on WW1 games.

My only  critique would be that as far as I can see the  rules that invalidate a German short line of defence strategy have been posted on GMT's site since 2010.  With popular board games I think its absolutely worth checking whether you are using the most up to date rule set available. To use a set of rules that pre-date 2010 meant that you subsequently had less time to cover some of the more interesting elements and critiques of PoG which was a shame. 

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