Rob Zacny

Episode 407: Shadow Tactics: Blades of the Shogun

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Three Moves Ahead 407:

Three Moves Ahead 407


Shadow Tactics: Blades of the Shogun
Tarou was awake and alert despite the chill and the early hour. Normally, drawing last watch was one of the worst tasks imaginable: a tortuous eight hours of mind-numbing circuits and bitter cold. Tonight was more tolerable, however, for Tarou knew that it was his last night as a guard for the malicious warlord. No more would he risk his life by showing small kindnesses to the prisoners, no more would he have to lay awake at night and wonder how many had died by his master's hand. He would leave and start his life again. His plans were set to meet a hay cart near the edge of the compound at dawn, and he would be free from this hellish existence forever. He would - wait - was that the call of a white-cheeked starling? Normally they had all migrated south by this point of the season. Perhaps the starling was a good omen for the beginning of his new life. Tarou whistled a jaunty tune back as he turned the corner. Rob, Fraser, Rowan, and guest Nick Capozzoli talk about how this and many other stories end in Shadow Tactics, a strategy game about being quiet and killing things.

Shadow Tactics: Blades of the Shogun

 

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Rowan is spot on about schizophrenic games not knowing if they're supposed to be savescummed or ironmanned. I don't like Darkest Dungeons that much but they're right about making XCOM clone with clear iron man goal. XCOM2 has infuriated me with it not being sure if its iron man or not. I've completed XCOM1 once on classic and then on normal Iron Man, and normal Iron Man felt great - intense, rewarding. Then I tried XCOM2 and was utterly humiliated. Devs idea is probably that player has to complete it once without Iron Man and replay on Iron Man. Because you have lots of things you can't anticipate: some missions may have sudden boss fights and those bosses need special tactics - see the Matrix hydra thing which clones itself after getting damage which will definitely screw you on your first try. On the other hand lots of mechanics only make sense in Iron Man - those mimics are useless once you replay mission and know where they hide, and you don't need all those abilities that help you suffer less from losses. And in empire building games there are sometimes very few ways of restoring after a lost war, like in Total War you either constantly expand and win every battle or enter a death spiral. Glad some devs know they have to make a choice.

 

About guard AI: Dishonored had guards who noticed their colleagues are missing. They took over patrols so you couldn't just remove a single guard who interferes with your plan.

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I did my review based on the PS4 version when that launched (since we missed out on its original PC release) - it actually plays pretty well. It's a little bit more fiddly to control everyone as a group (and I didn't actually realise you could move everyone at once until pretty late in my play session), but I don't remember having any specific issues with playing the game on the PS4.

 

The only actual criticism (which I don't know if this is true on PC), but I really wish clean-up was a little easier. Especially when you're using Shadow Mode to pull off these wonderfully intricate move-sets. I once had to take out, like, 5 guards using only two people, and clear away all the bodies before the other patrol came back. While Shadow Mode is really useful for pulling off combos etc..., the actual hiding of the bodies has to be done a person at a time and it can take far longer than it needs to.

 

Your talk about morality and stealth games that judge you for going full-on murder is interesting. I did have some moments where I really questioned if I was supposed to be killing my way through the level (and I couldn't really see an alternative that would avoid alarms), but right about that turning point you guys talk about it does feel a bit like the game is trying to reassure you that, no matter how murderous you get, you're not actually any worse than the world around you. It's a messed up world and you need to do messed up things to survive/seek justice for yourself, so don't worry about it.

 

 

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I waited through the entire episode for Rob Zacny to be disturbed by all the pale faces. I guess the developers of Shadow Tactics gets a pass from Rob Zacny's summary judgment. Why does your brand of racism stay in the fire this week Rob?

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14 hours ago, RocketDog said:

I waited through the entire episode for Rob Zacny to be disturbed by all the pale faces. I guess the developers of Shadow Tactics gets a pass from Rob Zacny's summary judgment. Why does your brand of racism stay in the fire this week Rob?

 

Wow, you hate-listened to an episode of Three Moves Ahead just so that you could take a weak potshot at its host for having an issue with Battle Brothers' racism and sexism a month and a half ago? That's sad, it's just a game.

 

Also, never gets old when "calling out racism" is the real racism. Cheers, you weirdo.

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12 hours ago, RocketDog said:

I waited through the entire episode for Rob Zacny to be disturbed by all the pale faces. I guess the developers of Shadow Tactics gets a pass from Rob Zacny's summary judgment. Why does your brand of racism stay in the fire this week Rob?

What is wrong with you?? Like, what thought process makes this ok?

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I point this out because of the egregiousness of a professional reviewer of product branding a group of people as racists, a very serious charge, based solely upon their use of only Germanic faces in their game set in a fake medieval Germany. Such a declaration is irresponsible. Such a statement degrades the speaker and his target. That this topic is taken so lightly by the host infuriates me. It is an injustice. Rob Zacny set his standard. I only ask him to be consistent. Surely this champion, who can detect a racist with just a wisp of information, can continue the crusade.

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13 hours ago, RocketDog said:

I point this out because of the egregiousness of a professional reviewer of product branding a group of people as racists, a very serious charge, based solely upon their use of only Germanic faces in their game set in a fake medieval Germany. Such a declaration is irresponsible. Such a statement degrades the speaker and his target. That this topic is taken so lightly by the host infuriates me. It is an injustice. Rob Zacny set his standard. I only ask him to be consistent. Surely this champion, who can detect a racist with just a wisp of information, can continue the crusade.

 

Wow, you really can't tell the difference between a fantasy setting, where the developers can choose to make any choice with regards to race and choose to reproduce a sanitized and artificially "white" expression of race in medieval Europe, and a game that is explicitly set in Edo-era Japan, a historical context that explicitly excludes non-Japanese characters? You really need some perspective, my friend.

 

Here, let me help you out. I'm a professional historian, currently finishing my doctorate. Message me and I'll send you my credentials on Academia.edu and Linkedin.com, if you need them to be convinced. My focus is twelfth- and thirteenth-century imperial Italy, namely the activities of the marquises of Montferrat at home and abroad, but the vast majority of my dissertation, especially in the first two chapters, directly pertains to the internal politics of the Holy Roman Empire, at least under Frederick Barbarossa and the subsequent generations of Staufer kings and emperors. From what I've read online, heard in the podcast, and played in the alpha demo, I think that the developers of Battle Brothers electing to depict an exclusively white and exclusively male cast of characters in their fantasy game inspired by medieval Germany (which, whatever white supremacists will tell you, was not all white) is suspicious at the very best and probably expresses some internalized and unexamined racism on their part. Criticism of that is correct and in keeping with the current scholarly trends in the field of medieval history.

 

Now, if you're willing to say that a professional reviewer of strategy games and a professional historian of the Holy Roman Empire in the Middle Ages are both wrong and that you're right, I'm willing to argue that you're the one being irresponsible by making your conclusions against the determinations of experts. What, exactly, is the basis for your belief that the depiction of an all-white Europe in a fantasy setting is not informed by racism, however unconscious? To think so is, of course, your prerogative, but maybe you need to examine the reasons why you're so sure about it?

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Also, and this goes without saying, but if suggesting that a developer's design choices are informed in part by internalized racism is enough of an "injustice" for you to make a forum account and repeatedly post about it, whether or not it's relevant to the conversation, I sincerely hope that you're exerting similar amounts of energy to counteract actual injustices in the world right now that involve the suffering and death of your fellow human beings.

 

Because, again, this is a video game, not real life, and it'll sell just fine whether or not a reviewer brings up issues of racism in it, judging from the performance of other games with similar issues.

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Are we really going to count degrees? That's your lead argument?  My criticism is of the accusation, not of the game. You see, I was using the Shadow Tactics as a foil, with which to draw out my opponent. A springboard to let not the sound die in the air, but to ring for all to hear. It is the lack of evidence with which you are Rob Zacny rest such a serious charge that I find reprehensible.   " When a game omits that inclusivity, and then kind of tips its hand about other iffy positions and perspectives, it's way harder to ignore now. " From this, Rob Zacny condemns at least six people as racists, a charge that in the current cultural climate,  ranks up there with pedophilia and rape. Rob shrugs of his discomfort though,  "... but I don't find so off-putting that I cannot play the game." I find that juxtaposition reprehensible. "I do love the soup at this restaurant, but I do wish they would free their slaves. More tea over here please!"

 

 

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2 hours ago, RocketDog said:

From this, Rob Zacny condemns at least six people as racists, a charge that in the current cultural climate,  ranks up there with pedophilia and rape. 

 

lolololol. this sort of statement is an amazing tell that a person has no interest or experience in having honest and intellectually sincere conversation about race and racism.

 

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3 hours ago, RocketDog said:

Are we really going to count degrees? That's your lead argument?  My criticism is of the accusation, not of the game. You see, I was using the Shadow Tactics as a foil, with which to draw out my opponent. A springboard to let not the sound die in the air, but to ring for all to hear. It is the lack of evidence with which you are Rob Zacny rest such a serious charge that I find reprehensible.   " When a game omits that inclusivity, and then kind of tips its hand about other iffy positions and perspectives, it's way harder to ignore now. " From this, Rob Zacny condemns at least six people as racists, a charge that in the current cultural climate,  ranks up there with pedophilia and rape. Rob shrugs of his discomfort though,  "... but I don't find so off-putting that I cannot play the game." I find that juxtaposition reprehensible. "I do love the soup at this restaurant, but I do wish they would free their slaves. More tea over here please!"

 

You realize that we live in a society that's thoroughly racist and that, in part because of that, it's fully possible to do and say things that are racist without intending to do so? I'm racist, though I try my hardest not to be. It's the stain of white supremacy that has been passed down through our culture and history. It's not a death sentence, it's a fact of life that reasonable, mature people should be able to discuss and improve upon, instead of making melodramatic (and, as Jenna observes, extremely reminiscent of bad faith) parallels to pedophilia and rape by way of a defense. It's really the sign of an argument that can stand on its own merits when it has to be associated with unrelated things just to make a point, don't you think?

 

Also, it is very, very suspicious to me that you are so desperate to shame Rob into silence or apology for suggesting that some of the game's design design may be informed by an internalized culture of racism, while simultaneously exhibiting no discernible interest in investigating the validity of those suggestions first. You don't care if Rob, me, and at least three other people in this thread alone think that there is some truth to them. You've already arrived at your own conclusions, and now you just want to shut Rob up with your feeble brand of mockery, because calling someone's design decisions racist is so much worse than actually making racist design decisions.

 

Finally, even if you are correct that Rob is making an unjustified and political attack on a game in the name of ideology, which you most certainly are not, how are you any better for criticizing his discussion of Shadow Tactics as a catspaw for your beef with him on a completely different game? Aren't you doing these developers just as bad of a disservice by feigning concern about their depictions of race and culture in their game, just to score what you must imagine are points against Rob? On your own terms, you are a hypocrite who seems willing to do and say anything to get back at someone for making a negative comment about a game that I hope to God Almighty you are head-over-heels in love with, and that's just sad.

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You misunderstand. My criticism is of the accusation, not of the game. Racist : prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior. I am not a racist. 

 

As far as wanting someone to shut up:  "..you to make a forum account and repeatedly post about it, whether or not it's relevant to the conversation..."

                                                                  "Now, if you're willing to say that a professional reviewer of strategy games and a professional historian of the Holy Roman Empire in the Middle Ages are both wrong and that you're right, I'm willing to argue that you're the one being irresponsible..."

 

I think you have not understood my previous post, because your response does not address my arguments.

 

6 hours ago, jennegatron said:

 

lolololol. this sort of statement is an amazing tell that a person has no interest or experience in having honest and intellectually sincere conversation about race and racism.

 

4

 

Not sure about jennegatron's post, as I am the one speaking of ideas through evidence and logic, whereas others are justifying their thoughts with their credentials. 

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2 hours ago, RocketDog said:

You misunderstand. My criticism is of the accusation, not of the game. Racist : prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior. I am not a racist. 

 

Here we go! Racism is prejudice + societal power. If you live in "the west" and are white, guess what? You're racist! You were enculturated in a white supremacist society that taught you from the day you were born in tiny, invisible ways that you were better because you are white. You also get the benefit of all sorts of government and societal advantages that feel invisible to you, but are walls that have to be scaled by People of Color. 

And when you decide that being racist is like being a rapist or a pedophile you remove the tool of being able to talk critically about race and depictions of race in media. White supremacy's primary goal is to perpetuate itself and when you try to shut down conversations about race by saying that Rob is essentially damning a developer to hell or is "playing the race card" or w/e it is that you say to try and stop the conversation from happening, you're supporting white supremacy's goal of continuing the institutions and structures that give white people unearned advantages.

You also get to be a huge distraction because now we have to respond to your apparent personal vendetta against Rob over a perceived slight because he dare tall about race in a video game.

 

2 hours ago, RocketDog said:

Not sure about jennegatron's post, as I am the one speaking of ideas through evidence and logic, whereas others are justifying their thoughts with their credentials. 

 

Who had "condescendingly talk about about logic and reason" in the pool? PM to claim your prize.

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The internet is big, wide open place. There are plenty of other more appropriate places to have this discussion and I would like to leave this thread open so people can discuss Shadow Tactics. 

 

RocketDog, our show is never above criticism, but you clearly have an agenda or point to make and it's not going to lead to a productive conversation here. Consider this a friendly nudge in the right direction.

 

If anyone has any questions or would like clarification, please feel free to PM myself or Rob.

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I guess I didn't make myself clear with my previous post. This conversation is not going to lead anywhere productive and is over.

 

To clarify for later generations: I deleted (and will delete) any posts after my message above that continued the conversation that started above.

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Thanks, Michael.

 

I also appreciated the discussion about save-scumming. In addition to a hotkey instant reload, I appreciate when turn-based games offer an undo. Invisible Inc's "inventory of undos" and the way they teach you to use one in the tutorial, and then tell you it's okay!, is my favorite recent example of this.

 

Appreciate that you waited several months past release to discuss this, too! 

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On 10/3/2017 at 6:57 PM, cornchip said:

Appreciate that you waited several months past release to discuss this, too! 

 

 

Yes - strategy games are like wine and whisky :-)

 

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2 minutes ago, riadsala said:

 

 

Yes - strategy games are like wine and whisky :-)

 

 

Right, you're better not mix strategy games.

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