Jake

Twin Peaks Rewatch 52/53: The Return, Parts 17 and 18

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I don’t understand that last bit. I guess I don’t even remember that scene being in the Return??

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37 minutes ago, pabosher said:

I don’t understand that last bit. I guess I don’t even remember that scene being in the Return??

 

We flash back to it at some point early in the season.

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4 minutes ago, Jake said:

 

We flash back to it at some point early in the season.

Weird! I know I’m just lazywebbing the hell out of this, but we don’t see him say How’s Annie, right? There are 0 mentions to annie in this season?

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48 minutes ago, pabosher said:

I don’t understand that last bit. I guess I don’t even remember that scene being in the Return??

 

Mr. C has a flashback when in prison. The scene in question starts at 1:32

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM2Y4Ho-SbE

 

Scene as it is edited in season 2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rjJ51N7qZY

 

@pabosher Annie is mentioned by Hawk, when he discusses the missing pages from Laura's diary with Frank Truman, in which she mentions her dream/vision with Annie.

 

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Not sure if this has been mentioned but I've been rewatching and the fence / telegraph pole outside of Carrie Page's Odessa house is part of the massive Twin Peaks Lore download Andy receives from the Fireman. I guess that's how Cooper knew where to find her.

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18 hours ago, DEC Jr. said:

First post*. Love the podcast and this forum. The asterisk is because these are actually the thoughts of my brother (I guess posting this means I'm his doppelgänger or tulpa?), who has been a fan ever since S1 when he was 12 ...

Screen Shot 2017-09-09 at 1.57.52 AM.png

 

damn i love this

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On 9/8/2017 at 7:24 PM, Rich lord said:

Something I don't think I've seen pointed out. Remember those weird metal things that we first see(I think) in the bit where Naido throws the switch and is thrown up into the air? The Fireman also has one, and I think Jeffries is supposed to be inside one. There's a shot in Part 17, as the Fireman sends Evil Coop to the sheriffs station, where you see loads of these all jammed into a room. What are they! I can't help but see them as some kind of traffic control stations for all the electricity flying around, and I somewhat hate that. Anyone have any ideas on what they are? They seem important.

 

 

 

I can't find it now, of course, but I think I saw a post on the Twin Peaks subreddit that they're an older type of electrical capacitors.

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4 hours ago, Mike Danger said:

 

I can't find it now, of course, but I think I saw a post on the Twin Peaks subreddit that they're an older type of electrical capacitors.

Those would be some damn big capacitors.

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On 9/8/2017 at 8:40 PM, Jake said:
I just read this theory that DOES attempt to connect every single thing together. It doesn't ring emotionally true to me, to what I got out of the season, but it was still an interesting read: http://www.waggish.org/2017/twin-peaks-finale/

 

While much of that seems to go too far into writing his own story that fits with what we saw, I really like the idea that Coop and Dianne are having sex in an attempt to summon the creature that killed the young couple having sex in Episode 1 (which must have been captured on film and seen by--Bad Coop? the FBI?)  It explains a lot of how they interact in that scene and provides significance to what otherwise seems like a gratuitous horror trope in the first episode.

Also huge slap to the forehead for the observation that Naido flipping the switch from 15 to 3 corresponds with Cooper fully coming to himself back outside the Lodge in Episode 15 rather than when he attempted to leave in Episode 3.  I hate/love/hate/love it.

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I had forgotten all about his briefcase computer, haha.

 

I should probably go back and rewatch this season in as large of chunks as I can handle sometime. Really curious to see how I'll react to various scenes and threads knowing the outcomes, or lack thereof. Also interested in what new details I'll pick up on, what else I've completely forgotten about, and how it works as more of a whole experience compared to an episodic one. I'd like to get some more distance from it before committing to that, but right now I'm also really itching for more Twin Peaks since it's been a weekly staple that's now missing. Maybe I'll finally force myself to check out the few remaining Lynch films I still haven't seen in the interim.

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So, there has already been a ton of writing and I don't want to repeat too much, so just a smattering of my thoughts below:

 

- Boo to no more "Invitation to Love".

 

- Boo to the original Sheriff Truman not being there.

 

- Maybe it's because I binge-watched it after the whole series came out, meaning I always had a new episode to watch, but I thought the Dougie Jones stuff was amazing and I couldn't get enough of it.

 

- I wonder if that creepy, gross drunk guy in the cell was a doppleganger that went wrong. He was repeating everything being said, Dougie-style.

 

- With how much this tied into weird asides from the original series and FWWM, and even re-used footage so that they made more sense in this new contect, I'm curious how much of this Lynch and Frost came up with now and how much of this was maybe a version of how they originally planned to end the series had it gone for multiple seasons, with the required changes due to time passing (i.e. The new season of Twin Peaks is like the new season of Gilmore Girls!). The fact that the new season needed a "Sheriff Truman" despite the actor not coming back and other significant attachments suggest this might have been Lynch's plan all along. But then again, it's just as plausible that Lynch had a new story and Twin Peaks was the vessel where he could get his 18-hour story funded.

 

- I definitely get the feeling that at least part of the show is meant to mock the trend of nostalgia television as a whole. Dougie was basically a hilarious version of how ridiculously intuitive Cooper was. The show basically starting with someone staring at an empty box, waiting for something to happen, and eventually something does happen and he dies while not really paying attention. The original stars of the show are now old and it's the younger generation telling their stories and replacing them with interesting drama. The bits about the original cast that are there - most of those characters have changed so much in time passing, they aren't recognizable as their current selves (Bobby is an understated police officer, Dr. Jacoby is a raving Alex Jones-style lunatic). The boss obsessed with his time as a young boxer, several instances of characters being stuck in a lobotomized state re-watching the same content over and over again, watching something we just saw in the context of the show, re-shown on a screen inside the show being watched by other characters. You get the gist.

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3 hours ago, pyide said:

I had forgotten all about his briefcase computer, haha.

 

I should probably go back and rewatch this season in as large of chunks as I can handle sometime. Really curious to see how I'll react to various scenes and threads knowing the outcomes, or lack thereof. Also interested in what new details I'll pick up on, what else I've completely forgotten about, and how it works as more of a whole experience compared to an episodic one. I'd like to get some more distance from it before committing to that, but right now I'm also really itching for more Twin Peaks since it's been a weekly staple that's now missing. Maybe I'll finally force myself to check out the few remaining Lynch films I still haven't seen in the interim.

Watched first 11 episodes this week. Feels much more like an 18 movie now.

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Thank you so much @Jake and @Chris for the podcast all season long, and specifically for pointing out in the finale recap that we already knew how Annie was. I don't know if your cribbed from my comments here or just got there on your own, but I am taking credit in my own mind. Regardless, it was so gratifying to hear someone else say it. 

 

I listened to a lot of TP content all over the place as The Return went on, but you guys were my favorite at the start and have remained so. Even when you have a "removing his wound" moment from time to time, you are still far above the rest of the pack. I didn't always agree with your take, but I never found myself yelling at your podcast, unlike many of the others I have checked out. Since I only found this place after The Return started, now I have to go back and listen to the original Rewatch of the first two seasons until you get around to doing an actual rewatch of Season 3.

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@plasticflesh - some great thoughts in the Medium article you posted.  I think some of it is purely speculative without much to back it up (which is inevitable in these kinds of theories), but definitely food for thought.  I think I am least convinced by the idea of Laura acting as a 'bomb' by overloading Judy or other lodge spirits with garmonbozia.  I don't think we've really seen or heard anything to the effect that garmonbozia is dangerous to the lodge spirits who are intent on gathering it.  (Although Laura's origin as 'good' orb does seem to indicate that she is dangerous or at least opposed to the 'evil' orb types like Bob)

 

I thought the idea of Coop & Diane's sex scene as conducting a ritual was quite resonant though - it could explain the pre-ordained feeling to Coop/Richard's instructions.  (And possibly give some further motivation to rape-happy Badcoop other than just being an evil sort, particularly in the case of Diane, if he was also attempting to enact a ritual).  I believe it possibly ties into some stuff from the Dossier about sex-magic too, but I have not read it.  Then again, if we assume that Diane has split from Coop at the point where she sees herself outside the hotel, then the scene might just be Linda coming to terms with the fact that Richard is acting super-weirdly.

 

I liked the concept of the alternate reality (or what the Medium article called 'The Cage') as being our real world, and having the actual owner of the location at which the Palmer House is filmed answer the door seems to reinforce this, but I'm not so sure about it having been constructed as a cage for Judy... 

 

The idea of the alternate reality being our own world in combination with the notion that Judy is the transliterated 交代 Jiāo Dài, or 'explanation' points to an interesting take where explanation of the show's mysteries is itself the worst possible evil, in which case I suppose Goodcoop as investigator seeking answers stands in for the audience, and oversteps into dangerous territory when he actually makes it into the real world...  Not sure exactly what that would parallel...  Maybe trying to use ideas about the motivation/psychology of the author to analyse events of the show?

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@BonusWavePilot that is a fair assessment on that article making too many assumptions. I agree on the Jiao Dai explanation being the ultimate evil to thesis of the show.

 

I spoke with a friend today and he had a simpler and less paranormal theory about the ending. That it was the same world, but just one where Laura Palmer creates a new name for herself as Carrie Paige. But is still re-enacting trauma because Cooper intervened before the murder, but after the years of trauma.

 

I guess if they really wanted it to be real life, RR Diner would be Twede's Cafe. Although Twede's does close at like 4pm, so it does track that it'd be closed at the time they passed by. (edit, it's 8am to 8pm, but I visited on Labor Day so it closed at 4pm)

 

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What an awesome ride this has been. I watched the entire first and second season of Twin Peaks over a two-week period, listening to Rewatch episodes along the way. I then watched FWWM (which traumatised me) and dove straight into The Return.

 

I've loved every minute of this podcast and the discussion it's generated; Twin Peaks is now sitting atop my all time favourite TV shows. Thanks to Chris and Jake for the thoughtful discussions and to everyone here for being generally awesome. Can't wait for the wrap-up episode :)

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@plasticflesh Hmm, an interesting possibility...  So if your friend is correct, Laura just called herself Carrie after escaping from Twin Peaks and its history of abuse?  In this case, how is her lack of knowledge of the family home accounted for?  I suppose she could just have repressed the memory of the place, but I would have expected her to be less co-operative with Coop's suggestion they travel back there if that were so, even if it does get her away from whatever happened with that body in her house.

Does this explanation tie into the weirdness around Coop and Diane 'crossing over' somehow?  I guess it could be the different reality Coop created by rescuing Laura beginning there, but Laura's body disappearing in the flashback would seem to indicate that Twin Peaks itself was affected too. 

 

On another note, apropos of nothing in particular, I really liked the randomness of some of the vortex locations.  The ones at Jackrabbit's palace or above the convenience store at least seem portentous, but the vortex that Gordon investigates, and the location of the 'crossover' point are both in such unremarkable places that it seems plausible they could have been there for years without anyone noticing.

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@BonusWavePilot I guess in that reading, for Carrie not responding to Laura's existence would be explained by repression. It does make it strange that Carrie would be so eager to hop on board with the alleged FBI man to escape the situation in her apartment. The Diane and Coop crossing over into Richard and Linda does just beg a super natural read.

 

The vortex that Gordon investigates seems to be in the front yard of the house of Carrie Page... even though that house is in Odessa Texas and not South Dakota.  The 430 miles location of the cross over point is very visually similar to the strip of highway that Mr C flips his car over on, and that Cooper looks onto from the red room. The vortex point that has only one use that I can see of is the one that immolates Richard Horne. But that could potentially be the way that Jerry Horne got to Wyoming, naked.

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@plasticflesh Ah yes, I had forgotten about Mr C's car flip being in a similar spot.  (Perhaps given more weight by RichCoop driving the same model of old car as Badcoop for his first evening crossed over.)

 

...and I had completely missed that Carrie's was the same house!

 

It would seem a bit foolhardy of Jerry to go climbing on that rock after he saw Richard getting toasted up there, although he did attribute the death to his binoculars, so possibly he wouldn't have connected it with the location.  In this case, I suppose Richard's grisly end (presumably meant for Badcoop) was some kind of once-off trap, rather than a permanent change to a vortex at that spot.

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First of all, thank you Chris and Jake for the podcast! It has helped me appreciate and "understand" Twin Peaks better. I have also enjoyed the forum discussion tremendously. 

 

I agree that whether one liked The Return or not (for what it is worth, I liked it), this was a remarkable piece of television. Before the new season aired, I felt that the only thing we could be certain about was that nothing would be certain, but even so, the season managed to take me completely by surprise in so many ways.

 

I'm still processing what the last couple of episodes mean (by themselves and for Twin Peaks, in general), but I think that on an emotional level, at least, they were very successful. Although, the "What year is this?" line may be a bit meaningless considering how much has changed in Cooper's existence already, that delivery combined with not-Laura's scream made my spine tingle. What a frightening place to leave the series.

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The Judy/Jiāo Dài relation to 'explanation' recontextualises that frustrating bit earlier in the series when Hawk was showing Truman his map and said "You don't want to know what that is."

 

"Err..., actually I really do!"

"No you don't."

"..............perhaps you're right. Coffee?"

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3 hours ago, dartmonkey said:

The Judy/Jiāo Dài relation to 'explanation' recontextualises that frustrating bit earlier in the series when Hawk was showing Truman his map and said "You don't want to know what that is."

 

"Err..., actually I really do!"

"No you don't."

"..............perhaps you're right. Coffee?"

 

When I let myself think about it, the lack of resolution on Hawk's map and the statement you quote, is extremely frustrating, especially given the Log Lady's nearly last words to him about "the one under the moon on Blue Pine mountain." We never see anything even remotely relating to this, unless it is when they find Naido, and that is in daylight, not under the moon, so I don't think it makes sense, unless that too is a metaphor.

 

...

 

It does occur to me, @Jake and @Chris, given the discussion about Bob's "catch phrase," it can take on new meanings. I had always thought it was "One chance out," but it seems "one chants out" is more likely to be the original intention. I haven't looked for specific script punctuation, which could alter the whole slightly, but as it is, that gives us:

 

 Through the darkness of future past

The magician longs to see

One chants out between two worlds

Fire walk with me

 

Given that we have the line, and the episode title, "Laura is The One," and we have "chants" as a verb,

is Laura the One who chants out between two worlds?

As in she is somehow the bridge between the Dale Cooper and Dougie Coop we know, and the "Richard" who meets "Carrie Page" in the sudden turn of the re_Turn.

The idea of Laura as the connecting piece seems kind of obvious, since that is the only consistency in the end of the season, but I had never connected it with Bob's poem before.

Is she the one asking/ telling us to Fire Walk with her?

 

I'm not one for big, elaborate theories, just connections. But when I thought of the poem in terms of "chants" instead of "chance," Laura as The One immediately jumped out at me. For what it's worth. One chants out between two worlds. Laura Palmer chants out between two worlds. Carrie Page chants out between two worlds. Cooper travels from one world to another, changing name yet still finding her, through Judy's diner, because the one still chants out between the two worlds.

 

Don't know if this idea holds to close scrutiny, but anyhow, that's my thought of the day,

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18 minutes ago, Mentalgongfu said:

Fire Walk with her

 

Just a quick aside, I always thought of that as a line imploring fire itself to walk with the speaker, not for somebody else to fire walk with them. It's curious to realise ambiguities like this that my brain wholly glossed over.

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