Jake

Twin Peaks Rewatch 52/53: The Return, Parts 17 and 18

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, Crunchnoisy said:

 

But what gives life meaning?  I think it is a happy ending.  There lives aren't that sad.  Nice house, nice cars, high-up connections in the community.  They have a child who probably goes to an OK public school who will grow up and make Janey-E proud.  Plus, their neighbors are well armed.

 

 

 

From what little we see, new Dougie seems about equal to sleeping Dougie Coop in his level of interaction, which seemed to be the happiest time in the life of Janey E and Sonny Jim. And I also assume he's an improvement over philandering Dougie prior to being replaced by Dougie Coop. So not as great as living with Dale himself, but still a nice ending.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Mentalgongfu said:

 

From what little we see, new Dougie seems about equal to sleeping Dougie Coop in his level of interaction, which seemed to be the happiest time in the life of Janey E and Sonny Jim. And I also assume he's an improvement over philandering Dougie prior to being replaced by Dougie Coop. So not as great as living with Dale himself, but still a nice ending.

I feel like things going so well was somewhat contingent on Mike's helping hand, though. I don't think their lives will be universally bad and it's not like I think people without their full mental capacities can't be happy and experience love. But the scene did at least have a hint of sadness and melancholy to me. I felt an absence in Dougie's face that reminded me of when he cried looking at Sonny Jim. And I don't think  I can endorse the idea that a cheerfully lobotomized husband is better than a philandering one.

 

It left me with a mixture of emotions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a continuation of my earlier thoughts on the myth of Orpheus & Eurydice as a mirror to Cooper & Laura, I'm also struck by the parallels of the overarching Peaks mythology (Judy, BOB, etc) with certain flavors of Gnostic myth.  Posted this on reddit earlier but I figured you all would enjoy picking it apart too.
 

Judy seems to be a Lynchian equivalent to the old Gnostic concept of the Demiurge, a malevolent force that created a physical reality that contains aspects of divinity but is in fact a trap, a trick... a dream from which to awaken.

One Gnostic mythos describes the declination of aspects of the divine into human form. Sophia (Greek: Σοφία, lit. "wisdom"), the Demiurge's mother a partial aspect of the divine Pleroma or "Fullness," desired to create something apart from the divine totality, without the receipt of divine assent. In this act of separate creation, she gave birth to the monstrous Demiurge and, being ashamed of her deed, wrapped him in a cloud and created a throne for him to be within it. The Demiurge, isolated, did not behold his mother, nor anyone else, and concluded that only he existed, ignorant of the superior levels of reality.

 

The Demiurge, having received a portion of power from his mother, sets about a work of creation in unconscious imitation of the superior Pleromatic realm: He frames the seven heavens, as well as all material and animal things, according to forms furnished by his mother; working however blindly, and ignorant even of the existence of the mother who is the source of all his energy. He is blind to all that is spiritual, but he is king over the other two provinces. The word dēmiourgos properly describes his relation to the material; he is the father of that which is animal like himself.

 

Thus Sophia's power becomes enclosed within the material forms of humanity, themselves entrapped within the material universe: the goal of Gnostic movements was typically the awakening of this spark, which permitted a return by the subject to the superior, non-material realities which were its primal source.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge

 

This Demiurge really does consider everything to be 'explained' but is in fact as deceived as it is deceiving.

 

I also find the Gnostic concept of the "divine spark" to be conspicuously perverted by Lynch's use of electricity, "black fire," and "gotta light":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Spark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mentalgongfu said:

 

From what little we see, new Dougie seems about equal to sleeping Dougie Coop in his level of interaction...

 

I'm thinking "new Dougie" is way more animated than "sleeping Dougie Coop" ever was from what little we see.  He looks around in amazement and asks "Where am I?" immediately upon being created by Mike.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, SkullKid said:

This suddenly made me think the Audrey scenes make a lot of sense. Whenever we saw her, we saw her in the alt-world that Richard/Coop and Alt-Laura occupy. It's why Audrey says she feels like she's someone else, somewhere else. Charlie threatens to "end her story," and Audrey references the story of the little girl who lived down the lane. Finally when she was in the road house and all that insanity happened, she woke up. The artifice of that alt-world fell apart, and she woke up somewhere in actual Twin Peaks. 

 

I've had similar thoughts, but would be way more onboard with the idea if Charlie had called Audrey by a different name (or not by name at all). Unless the opposite is true, and when she woke up in the white room she was suddenly in the same reality as Richard, Linda, and Carrie (and is not actually named Audrey).

 

But yeah, her little arc had such a horrifying cliffhanger that I'd love to believe some type of answer is buried among the numerous things we saw this season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Frohike said:

Judy seems to be a Lynchian equivalent to the old Gnostic concept of the Demiurge, a malevolent force that created a physical reality that contains aspects of divinity but is in fact a trap, a trick... a dream from which to awaken.

One Gnostic mythos describes the declination of aspects of the divine into human form. Sophia (Greek: Σοφία, lit. "wisdom"), the Demiurge's mother a partial aspect of the divine Pleroma or "Fullness," desired to create something apart from the divine totality, without the receipt of divine assent. In this act of separate creation, she gave birth to the monstrous Demiurge and, being ashamed of her deed, wrapped him in a cloud and created a throne for him to be within it. The Demiurge, isolated, did not behold his mother, nor anyone else, and concluded that only he existed, ignorant of the superior levels of reality.

 

The Demiurge, having received a portion of power from his mother, sets about a work of creation in unconscious imitation of the superior Pleromatic realm: He frames the seven heavens, as well as all material and animal things, according to forms furnished by his mother; working however blindly, and ignorant even of the existence of the mother who is the source of all his energy. He is blind to all that is spiritual, but he is king over the other two provinces. The word dēmiourgos properly describes his relation to the material; he is the father of that which is animal like himself.

 

Thus Sophia's power becomes enclosed within the material forms of humanity, themselves entrapped within the material universe: the goal of Gnostic movements was typically the awakening of this spark, which permitted a return by the subject to the superior, non-material realities which were its primal source.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge

 

Interesting!  Particularly in light of the theories that 'Judy' is a transliteration of that Chinese phrase that relates to 'knowing' or explanation. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't stop thinking, what did that scene of Cooper in the Sheriffs station look like to everybody else gathered in the room? The long lost Cooper standing there amongst old friends, saying some cryptic remarks then yelling 'Gordon!' as he disappears. Maybe it was similar to when Philip Jeffries appeared in the Philadelphia offices? Will the observers have trouble remembering this moment too? 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Captain Fram said:

Coop Actual relishes a final moment with his collected friends. In his heart, and with knowledge gained from 25 years of whatever the hell happened to him in the red room, Coop seizes the opportunity to destroy the malevolent evil Judy. To do this he needs (the One) Laura Palmer, and he needs her alive.

 

Back in 1989 now. After incorrectly deducing that James is not cool, Laura Palmer storms off into the forest to meet her untimely demise. This time though, she is intercepted by Cooper, who tells her he's taking her home. Given that Coop's on a mission to eliminate Judy, this to me says that even back then, Sarah Palmer had "Judy" within her. Perhaps it was latent back then, awakening fully only after a great trauma (like the murder of your daughter and the revelation that it was your husband, perhaps) This lends validity to the theory that Sarah Palmer is in fact the young girl who swallows the bug in Ep 8.

 

I digress. Coop leads Laura by hand through the night. As they approach the warp zone Laura is suddenly whisked away, leaving Coop alone. I believe this is the work of Judy, for she cannot kill Laura on her own - Sarah Palmer repeatedly smashes a glass bottle into the photograph of Laura, and there's not a scratch on it - but she can send her away, to another place and time, where she might forget herself completely, and Coop might not follow.

 

Good point about Judy latent in Sarah, and I agree that Coop is trying to find Laura (in any version) in order to stop Judy moreso than to rescue Laura for her own sake.

 

15 hours ago, SkullKid said:

The thing that's really stuck in my head is the image of Diane seeing herself at the motel after Cooper walked inside. Since this purgatorial place seems to take place outside of time, maybe multiple versions of oneself can exist. Maybe a Bad Cooper walked out of that motel and got in the car with that Diane, whereas a Good Cooper (though one still not entirely in control of his mental faculties) walked out and got in a different car with that *other* Diane. The sex scene we see features Bad Coop, whereas somewhere off screen, another Coop and Diane share a similar romantic moment. Basically, the Coop we see wake up in the morning and yell for Diane is not the same Coop that we saw in the sex scene. 

 

It's as if the same thing keeps happening in this same place over and over, in slightly different ways. 

 

But probably not. I feel like there's a simple answer to all this buried underneath Lynch's artistic flourishes. 

 

This was essentially my take too, though I perhaps articulated it badly earlier. Especially since I really don't think badCoop is dead.

 

That said, the 'Diane sees his face that way be because of her trauma and we see from her perspective' idea seems reasonable, and I am also liking the idea someone mentioned about how Jeffries' warned against slipperiness, such that maybe things just change in the alt-world, dreamlike. It did feel like a dream, to me, and I interpreted Coop's odd behavior as his knowing that he's in sonething of an unreality/dreamworld (fits also with the 'things might be different' line to Diane). So he ignores the corpse in Page's house maybe because he knows it's not real or at least distorted and in some sense it doesn't matter what happens in the dream world, and he is willing to be aggressive in the bar for the same reason - the people in there aren't real, or they can't really be hurt, or something. And his quietness I just took to be because he was in a damn scary situation. All that combined with this being still some of the first we get to see of him post lodge-trauma.

 

Also, frankly, I really dislike the idea that he is now an amalgam/Richard combo of the good and bad Coops. People are saying that he's more realistic when combined, but I don't buy that. People aren't all perfectly grey blends of good and bad. That's just a stereotype of realism, and imo a boring one. Good Coop was essentially good, but he wasn't a saint (griping about loud neighbors, happily engaging in vigilante-ism around One Eyed Jack's while an FBI agent, seeming tempted by Audrey, etc), and I think he was as if not more realistic than Coop in episode 18.

 

Anyway, on an unrelated note, that white horse in Page's house, iirc, had it's eyes grown over with lumps of skin, like Naido. I don't know what that could mean, if anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm really gaining this feeling that the actions Cooper performs in re: to Laura/C. Page are, at the very least, intrusive to the women of the Palmer household. When Cooper leads FWWMLaura through the forest, supposedly "home", he loses grasp of her and hears her bloodcurdling scream. Followed shortly thereafter is the scene with Sarah, at one of her lowest points, wailing and showing aggression towards her daughter's photo. I think the intensity of it is worth noting & examining in relation to what's happening around it. Maybe the fact that Laura has been "saved" (shown by the pilot callback) is making her, who is still traumatized, viciously jealous? Like, "Why do you get to be saved while I'm still here?" It could also be that Cooper's actions have reopened this wound, in a way. Speaking in the context of watching this show, she died again, and it's Cooper's actions that caused it. Thus, she is overwhelmed with the grief that has been marinating inside for 25 years. I can't say for certain, but the Sarah scene has stuck onto me so hard that I can't help but theorize.

 

I think a similar, albeit more obvious, thing could be placed upon Coop's whole Pt. 18 quest. His mission to "find Laura" leads him to bringing Carrie to the Palmer household, where it's implied that Laura "reawakens" after hearing her mom say her name. The more I think about it, the less I think there's anything "nice" to be grabbed. I know some were sharing the sentiment that this ending places them together, and that hey, Laura's alive! However, I can only see it now as Cooper's actions being so misguided that he went through timeline/dimensions/worlds just to have a dead girl remember the traumas she experienced. IF the series ends here, and you're only left to speculate, I have a hard time accepting a happy ending out of "What year is this?" > "Laura?" > *scream* > Palmer house shrouded in darkness.

 

Recalling my post from pages long past, THAT is why I want this to be the ending of the show. To watch more of what I think is Cooper's mistake causing Laura's unrest would be miserable, not just in terms of "plot", but from an experiential standpoint. It's worth noting that the person who gives Cooper the task of finding Laura is Leland, a man who I wouldn't trust anywhere near her. Perhaps his lodge-arrested request for his daughter's whereabouts is symbolic of Cooper's reasons of finding her. Not that he wants to abuse her like Leland, but that his desire to find her isn't completely sympathetic to her as a person. It is implied that the reason he wants to find her is to fight Judy/Mother, after all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like the idea of Richard being Cooper's secret dream version of himself.  Still unimpeachable but a little earthier. Less boyscout goody-two-shoes, more lone gunman - more Eastwood than Stewart or Cooper (Gary). It tracks that we see echoes of BadCoop in RichDreamCoop and whereas GoodCoop's idol was the community sheriff with shining badge and Grace Kelly in a bonnet (the kind of person he thought he could be in Twin Peaks), the influence of the dream world and the BadCoop in his psyche pushes him more towards a High Plains Drifter/Pale Rider.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, brownbathrobe said:

 

I'm thinking "new Dougie" is way more animated than "sleeping Dougie Coop" ever was from what little we see.  He looks around in amazement and asks "Where am I?" immediately upon being created by Mike.

That was Dougie in the red room when saying "Where am I?" and then sleeping Dougie Coop at the door to house saying "Home". Not the same person. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, huskerfan5b said:

That was Dougie in the red room when saying "Where am I?" and then sleeping Dougie Coop at the door to house saying "Home". Not the same person. 

 

Huh? In what way are they not the same person? Everything from Dougie2's creation to his arrival at the Jones house all but states that he's the same person. The music that plays over Dougie2's "birth" continues unbroken as he arrives at the house, and the swooping camera move into the Jones' front door implies a lodge-related method of arrival. He responds to Janey-E's and Sonny-Jim's hugs immediately, which is something Coop-as-Dougie was incapable of.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@MabaseSlums Yep, I agree with what you're saying here. This ending is I think the most bleakly, horrifyingly depressing thing Lynch has ever created. I think any kind of continuation would undermine it, though I don't really expect there will be one. Coop's misguided actions have doomed both himself and Laura to an eternity of uncertain dream horror, terrible revelations always on the edge of their minds, sometimes spilling over into consciousness and shattering their world, only for their journey to begin again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think, more and more, that Cooper and Diane are different in the alt-world NOT because they're amalgams of their past selves, but because, like DougieCoop earlier in the season, they're not entirely "awake." 

 

It's really the DougieCoop thing all over again. 

 

Consider: DougieCoop displayed some of Coop's qualities and desires, but had to be triggered by a strong memory to to be woken up completely and understand his purpose. Similarly, AltCoop displays some of Coop's qualities, but it noticeably more muted and straightforward. DougieCoop begins to fully awaken when he hears the name Gordon Cole. AltCoop AND AltLaura begin to fully awaken when they realize they don't know what year it is--when they realize the artifice of this world. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey you all. Remember how happy and GoodCoop-like Dougie was when getting home? Hugging his wife and kid and saying “Home”? And how muted Coop was in his quest to save Laura? How, perhaps, Diane-tulpa-like? What if Coop did the first selfish thing in his life and created a Tulpa to continue his life in the FBI, and he went to live the life he never had with Janey-E and Sonny Jim?

 

JUST SAYIN

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, pabosher said:

Hey you all. Remember how happy and GoodCoop-like Dougie was when getting home? Hugging his wife and kid and saying “Home”? And how muted Coop was in his quest to save Laura? How, perhaps, Diane-tulpa-like? What if Coop did the first selfish thing in his life and created a Tulpa to continue his life in the FBI, and he went to live the life he never had with Janey-E and Sonny Jim?

 

JUST SAYIN

 

Huh. I don't think this is what happened, but it's a hell of a thought.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm starting to think the ending may have been good. The Palmers' lives have been corrupted by the evil forces that lie in electricity. (Insert ominous ceiling fan shot here.) At the end the power in the Palmer household went dead. The electricity will control them no more. That fan will never spin again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't hear Sarah saying "Laura" at the end the first time. I just went back to re-listen, and then to Sarah smashing the photo in 17, and reckon those two things - Laura hearing her name and screaming, and Sarah smashing the photo - are probably happening at the same time. The music is real loud when Sarah's whacking away at the photo, but she is vocalising.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Captain Fram said:

 

Huh. I don't think this is what happened, but it's a hell of a thought.

 

Nor do I, really, but my girlfriend noted straight away when ‘Coop’ left the room into Glastonbury grove that he seemed different. What if it was a different Coop? What if his promise to Janey-E and Sonny Jim was honest, when he said he’d come home to them?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Don't Go There said:

These things aren’t ambiguities. These are examples of bad storytelling. These aren’t mysteries meant for us to solve, because mysteries require clues. These are abandoned plotlines. The main story- of Cooper and Diane and Laura- that is, I think, a mystery. I like it, because it works as a conclusion to Peaks as a whole, and it works as a possible hook for another season, and it has just enough to it for us to grab on to and speculate and theorize forever.

 

Early in the season three I had to ask myself: "Why am I watching this? Would I watch this if this was made by anyone else except Lynch." Probably not. But I do think what Lynch does wouldn't work if it was just good storytelling. It's some weird form of worldbuilding by osmosis. A shadow image based on what we don't see. I doesn't always quite work. But I think if season three had been cut down to the central storyline, of Cooper getting lost in Dougie on his way to try and find Laura, it wouldn't have worked the same.

 

I know this sounds very Stockholm syndrome, and perhaps it's just that. Sunk costs. I'm also not suggesting it's an intricately built thing where everything is just so for a specific purpose, effect. I think it's a mess, partly made on impulse. But, I think, ultimately, I'm glad that Lynch, for once, got to do exactly what he wanted to do and I got to see it. If the price of admission is some dissatisfaction and abandoned stories, so be it.

 

EDIT: Also, thank you for a thorough dissection on your reaction. It helped me my to gel mine. Even if mine is a bit of a cop-out :-)

Edited by unimural

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, unimural said:

 

Early in the season three I had to ask myself: "Why am I watching this? Would I watch this if this was made by anyone else except Lynch." Probably not. But I do think what Lynch does wouldn't work if it was just good storytelling. It's some weird form of worldbuilding by osmosis. A shadow image based on what we don't see. I doesn't always quite work. But I think if season three had been cut down to the central storyline, of Cooper getting lost in Dougie on his way to try and find Laura, it wouldn't have worked the same.

 

I know this sounds very Stockholm syndrome, and perhaps it's just that. Sunk costs. I'm also not suggesting it's an intricately built thing where everything is just so for a specific purpose, effect. I think it's a mess, partly made on impulse. But, I think, ultimately, I'm glad that Lynch, for once, got to do exactly what he wanted to do and I got to see it. If the price of admission is some dissatisfaction and abandoned stories, so be it.

 

EDIT: Also, thank you for a thorough dissection on your reaction. It helped me my to gel mine. Even if mine is a bit of a cop-out :-)

 

I think this is exactly right, and linked into why some of the effects in the show are “bad” and why some are seamless - he’s trying to evoke feelings and emotions, even if it doesn’t always make literal sense. 

 

I personally found the Freddie/BOB fight incredible tense and thrilling, despite the schlocky effects, for example. I knew it was ridiculous and yet I was completely under its spell. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Don't Go There you raise some really good points. I'm not so bothered about the incomplete character arcs- I think whether or not you see them as incomplete is subjective to an extent- but some of the plot dead ends do bother me. In particular:

-the 119 drug addict and her son

-the box in Buenos Aires (which   I wasn't in alone in thinking could have 'been' Phillip Jeffries, or at the very least a means of transmission between the 'real' world and wherever Jeffries is/was

-Hawk finding the entrance to the red room in the first episode(s). Why were we shown this- I was mega excited as I really thought Hawk was going to go into the Lodge and save the day.

 

Looking at these now, I can accept that '119' is standard Lynch enigma, and Hawk's scenes could have been poorly edited (although, as a massive Hawk fan, there was also an element of wish fulfillment in the possibility of Hawk saving Coop). But the box in Buenos Aires? And its link to the Hip Hop woman gruesomely murdered by Ike, who types 'Argent' into her phone?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, pabosher said:

 

I think this is exactly right, and linked into why some of the effects in the show are “bad” and why some are seamless - he’s trying to evoke feelings and emotions, even if it doesn’t always make literal sense. 

 

I personally found the Freddie/BOB fight incredible tense and thrilling, despite the schlocky effects, for example. I knew it was ridiculous and yet I was completely under its spell. 

I loved the Saga of Freddie and His Magic Gardening Glove of Awesomeness.

 

6 minutes ago, prangman said:

@Don't Go There you raise some really good points. I'm not so bothered about the incomplete character arcs- I think whether or not you see them as incomplete is subjective to an extent- but some of the plot dead ends do bother me. In particular:

-the 119 drug addict and her son

-the box in Buenos Aires (which   I wasn't in alone in thinking could have 'been' Phillip Jeffries, or at the very least a means of transmission between the 'real' world and wherever Jeffries is/was

-Hawk finding the entrance to the red room in the first episode(s). Why were we shown this- I was mega excited as I really thought Hawk was going to go into the Lodge and save the day.

 

Looking at these now, I can accept that '119' is standard Lynch enigma, and Hawk's scenes could have been poorly edited (although, as a massive Hawk fan, there was also an element of wish fulfillment in the possibility of Hawk saving Coop). But the box in Buenos Aires? And its link to the Hip Hop woman gruesomely murdered by Ike, who types 'Argent' into her phone?

 

Thinking further, I think that, perhaps, Lynch and Frost would consider the Audrey storyline finished. And, if I assume that, then it's probably safe to assume she was in a coma. At this point, I think I can accept that, though, if that is the case, I'm not crazy about the execution of it.

 

I love everything about the special effects in this show. Years ago, when Roger Ebert did a commentary track for "Dark City", he mentioned that special effects shouldn't always look realistic, and I think that applies to this show. The very unrealistic quality to much of the effects work in "The Return" is part of what makes them disturbing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The more I think about it the more side stories I remember that never went anywhere. Like the scene with Bobby and the honking woman and the barfing zombie child, what was that about? We don't know because it was never mentioned again. But I do know that I enjoyed that scene immensely at the time. There's also things like the Ed and Norma story that did have a resolution, but still didn't impact the central plot at all, so is that better? If you cut out all the unresolved side stories you'd lose a lot of my favorite scenes, so I think I'm ok with the show being what it is.

 

I feel like if I watched it again knowing how it end up it might feel more like a collection of vignettes about the people adjacent to a central plot, rather than a story about that central plot. I mean, it's "starring Kyle Mclaughlin" but there are large stretches of the show where he doesn't even appear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now