Jake

Twin Peaks Rewatch 51: The Return, Part 16

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First time posting. Forgive me if these ideas have been brought up elsewhere.

 

I still think Audrey is likely in a coma in the hospital (although not an idea I like). 

 

1. I think this would explain why there are these confusing parallels to what is going on in Twin Peaks.

 

The truck/Billy account seems to relate to Richard the boy he killed.

 

The fight that takes place at the end of the last episode relates to James/Green Glove fighting with Renee’s husband. 

 

The reason that these are somehow coming into Audrey’s coma state is because both Chuck and his friend wind up in intensive care, as well as Miriam after she crawls out of the woods.  Miriam, Chuck, his friend, the doctors, and the police are all there discussing what is going on and Audrey is hearing these accounts in her coma state which is why they are being muddled in her dream world.

 

 

2. Do you think there is any way that Sonny Jim could be Bad Coop’s child? Either a child he had with Diane who was then adopted by Janey-E and Dougie, which could have something to do with Diane and Janey’s estrangement. Or, could he be a child that Bad Coop had with Janey-E under the false pretense that he was Dougie? Not sure what that would imply, but it seems possible.

 

3. If Diane is in the Sheriff's station we should keep in mind the non-linear timelines. She may be there in FBI time which may be ahead of what we've been shown in Twin Peaks so far. I'm interested in the theory that Candie is somehow related to Diane. She could already be in Twin Peaks by the time we see Diane's death.

 

Curious to hear thoughts on these theories. There are probably a lot of details I’m missing.

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@Kanen

 

1) Audrey in a coma is definitely plausible, if not likely; but like you, I'm not a fan of the idea.

 

2) I don't think Sonny Jim is Bad Coop's child because there haven't been any clues in the show to indicate that is even a possibility. On top of that, I think DougieCoop would have sensed something, or we would have seen Sonny Jim being evil at some point; instead he seems to have a good heart. Sonny Jim's parentage is an interesting question, though I doubt we'll get a clear answer. Is he the child of TulpaDougie (Can a Tulpa have a child?), or was there a real Dougie Jones who fathered him and was then disappeared by BadCoop?

 

3) Diane in the sheriff's station is still a wide-open question as far as I'm concerned, so could be Candie. Could be Naido. Could be something else.

 

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Cooper would have recognized Candie / Diane immediately, no? After waking up and riding in the same limo as her to the airport of course, but even seeing her before in full Dougie mode would have triggered something in him, surely. 
I'm not sure how people are trying to reason that one, aside from the anagram name game that doesn't exactly fit.

 

And we know Diane looks like Laura Dern's character because of Albert and Gordon's acceptance of her from the start. And the tulpas we've seen so far have shared the looks of the original in some way. I think even Naido as Diane is a stretch but since her face is covered and scarred and we don't really know Diane's original hair color or anything, it could still work.

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On 8/31/2017 at 4:30 PM, pabosher said:

I mean, it also tracks with BOB being 'the evil that men do', I think - he is your id, unshackled.

 

"He is BOB, eager for fun. He wears a smile, everybody run."

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5 hours ago, pyide said:

Cooper would have recognized Candie / Diane immediately, no? After waking up and riding in the same limo as her to the airport of course, but even seeing her before in full Dougie mode would have triggered something in him, surely. 
I'm not sure how people are trying to reason that one, aside from the anagram name game that doesn't exactly fit.

 

And we know Diane looks like Laura Dern's character because of Albert and Gordon's acceptance of her from the start. And the tulpas we've seen so far have shared the looks of the original in some way. I think even Naido as Diane is a stretch but since her face is covered and scarred and we don't really know Diane's original hair color or anything, it could still work.

I’m sticking to the idea that her spirit is in mouth-bleeding man. 

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1 hour ago, Lacabra said:

I still can't hear Diane saying "I'm in the sherriff's station". I only hear sherriff's station. This is gonna drive me nuuuts

(Same, to be honest. But on the off chance we’re wrong, I’m making that crazy prediction!)

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29 minutes ago, Lacabra said:

I bet everyone just watched it with subtitles and the subtitles are wrong

 

It actually said Bing's in the Sheriff Station.

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One possibility that we haven't really considered is that Audrey wasn't attacked by BadCoop but that it was consensual. Huge question marks would still exist but it would be more interesting.

 

I was going to make a big list of plot lines and what I think will be wrapped up and what I'd be happy to not see again...but that'd be a long ol' post. Summary:

 

Big Ed, Norma, Nadine, Jacoby - I'm fine with these where they are now.

 

Ruth Davenport, Briggs, Audrey, BadCoop, Coop&Cole, Sarah Palmer, Naido, Diane, Andy, Lucy, Billy, Red - all these characters/plots need some resolution.

 

Jefferies, frog-moth, Bobby, Ben & Jerry, Beverly, Annie -  I wouldn't be surprised if these things aren't mentioned, although it'd be great.

 

Donna, Chet Desmond - fan service but no chance.

 

Leo - season will fail without a snap cut to his decayed skeleton in the cabin.

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@Mentalgongfu 

 

I had the same thoughts about Sonny Jim not showing any signs of being evil. However, I wonder if the continual themes of identity and confusion, the split between good and evil in characters/their doubles, etc. and that Sonny Jim would still be, presumably, the child of a doppelganger with Bad Coop's DNA leads me to believe that there is a different reason for him being good. Perhaps there are subtle juxtapositions being made between Richard and Sonny Jim being brought up in different locations and Sonny Jim having generally stable family environment vs. Richard who grew up with who knows what kind of family in a town that is being frequently influenced by dark spirits. Maybe I'm just making it too complicated though.

 

I agree that Diane is an open question. I still am not convinced she even said she was in the Sheriff's station and I don't necessarily think she is Candie, either. I'm just suggesting that given the strange timeline whatever is going on with Diane elsewhere could already being happening while doppelDiane is with the FBI. 

 

As far as why various characters may not recognize a different character like Naido as being Diane; we have seen a number of people, especially the FBI agents and those around them, with significant memory loss concerning past events. It seems that the Black Lodge is somehow changing their memories of what has happened previously. I don't like the idea of a switch-up with Diane's character but it still seems possible.

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@Invisible Strings

I agree - it's still hugely problematic, but I think there's room to explore a much deeper scenario than 'BadCoop raped Audrey'. For instance, let's imagine that Ben Horne had something DoppelCoop needed/wanted but it was somehow time dependant and violence/intimidation simply wasn't the easiest way to achieve his goal. So BadCoop needed to stay in Twin Peaks for a few weeks and keep up a veil of normality. That doesn't preclude him from being awful but it opens up the possibility of a relationship of-sorts.

 

I'm not suggesting it can be made 'right' or that there's any way BadCoop's behaviour isn't reprehensible, but I think there are ways to tell more interesting stories with the framework they've constructed.

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I actually see this differently than what seems like the general sentiment here. First of all, sexual assault is a reality. (I've experienced it myself.) Lynch often has sexual violence as part of his story telling and I respect the fact that he doesn't shy away from it because it's awful and uncomfortable to watch. I also think that raping two women as precious to Dale Cooper as Audrey and Diane is so unthinkable and so anathema to his character, which is one of the reasons we all love him. Because of this, to me, it absolutely follows that his doppelgänger would do just that. It's the ultimate "fuck you" to the real Cooper. Let's also not forget that Bob is and has always been a rapist. This is part of his character and a large part of what makes him terrifying and evil. Obviously, no one is pro-rape, but the horror of sexual violence is at the heart of Bob and is exactly what makes this effective in portraying a pure evil and true horror. Would we fear and hate Bob in the same way without his serial rapes? I don't think I would.  Evil Coop raping Audrey and Diane makes perfect sense to me, unfortunately as it is the worst thing one person can do to another. 

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Now that I'm actually watching the show, and not just consuming spoiler podcasts and reviews, I'm of the opinion that all the random numbers will combine into another set of coordinates.

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On 8/31/2017 at 2:41 AM, dartmonkey said:

I agree that perhaps BOB's influence has changed - the season 2 ending very explicitly highlighted his presence in the doppelgänger - but the 'good man like Leland' interpretation is something I disagree with. Chris and Jake have discussed it on the 'cast (and people on the forums too) and there's no evidence to say Leland is blameless and 'good'. If BOB is a manifestation of the 'evil that men do', it is (WO)MEN that must create conditions for him to exist in them. He's not a bogeyman who inhabits hapless innocents. He couldn't inhabit Laura, for example, although there are scenes where she appears to be succumbing to that evil (when she's on the stairway in FWWM) and at risk of letting him in.

 

My immediate thought (and I guess that of many viewers) on watching the S2 finale was that BadCoop and BOB would begin a spree of devious, violent attacks, starting with Annie and probably moving through the entire Miss Twin Peaks lineup. I think FWWM and S3 introduced more subtle and complicated motivations for BadCoop and BOB, and it would be a shame if the audiences' assumptions were indulged rather than being subverted in any way.

If Leland would have raped Laura anyways without being possessed by BOB, then I just don't see the point of BOB in the first place. I get that there are metaphorical things to consider, and the point is we all have darkness.. But is doesn't mean you are bad just because you are human with a dark side.. we all have darkness in us... And the issue isn't purely black and white.

 

But BOB is a part of the story, and it has to mean something. Yes the real Leland would sometimes push his way to the surface, but he wasn't the purpotrator, Bob was. Or at least, the real Leland would not have done those things.. 

 

Unless you want to claim that Dale Cooper is also deep down a monster just because HIS darker aspect is capable of the things his Doppleganger did. Dale Cooper is probably the most noble person ever, and even he is susceptible to the corruption in some way.. He is seemingly incorruptible and yet Mr. C exists.. I think it's missing the point to blame Leland when he obviously was not himself.. whatever metaphorical thing you want to take from it all.

 

The entire point is THAT HE IS GOOD and he was still made to do these things.   This is the point of showing the real Leland shining through occasionally so you can see the tragedy of a good man who loves his family  being made to do horrible things . If he was a rotten egg to begin with,  Bob is kind of redundant .

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It's hard to know what Leland was or would have been, having been inhabited by BOB since he was a child.  BOB in evil Coop is a different entity.  In evil Coop he doesn't hide (although Coop does not always seem aware of his presence- see the "I'm glad you're still with me scene early in the season).  Evil Coop and BOB seem to be working together BOB happily feeding off the mayhem Mr. C provides. It also seems he lend Mr. C some kind of power or enhancement with his presence, and possibly helped him create the tulpas in the first place.  

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@Nordelnob

I don't think it's at all beyond the scope of the show (especially considering FWWM) to think that Bob encouraged Leland's dark impulses to come out, but didn't have to create them in the first place. Leland wouldn't have done those things without Bob, but the desires already existed within him. There's nothing redundant about that. If it was only Bob and Leland really had no agency, it's basically just a modified version of "The Devil made me do it."

 

The fact that Leland let Bob in, even though he was just a child, also indicates some level of agency when compared to Laura.  Flawed as she was as a human being, she chose to die rather than to let Bob take her over.

And even if we accept that it was all Bob, not Leland (even though I don't agree); Leland was never portrayed as a good person. He was a lawyer in league with Ben and Jerry, who are basically scumbags through most of the original run.

 

On the other hand, in The Return, Bob isn't inhabiting Dale Cooper like he inhabited Leland - he's inhabiting Mr. C., which is Dale's shadow-self from the Black Lodge (according to Hawk's description of 'the dweller on the threshold' in Season 2). The actual Dale Cooper isn't corrupted and wasn't made to do anything; rather, his shadow-self is teaming with Bob to do evil things while Bob feeds on the fear and pain. Like Digger said, Bob inside Mr. C is a very different thing than Bob inside a normal person. It's evil squared. Bob doesn't have to make Mr. C do anything.

 

 

killer-bob-dale-cooper-twin-peaks.jpg

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2 hours ago, Digger said:

It's hard to know what Leland was or would have been, having been inhabited by BOB since he was a child.  BOB in evil Coop is a different entity.  In evil Coop he doesn't hide (although Coop does not always seem aware of his presence- see the "I'm glad you're still with me scene early in the season).  Evil Coop and BOB seem to be working together BOB happily feeding off the mayhem Mr. C provides. It also seems he lend Mr. C some kind of power or enhancement with his presence, and possibly helped him create the tulpas in the first place.  

I think this actually supports my point even more. Leland was doomed from the beginning. He never even had a chance of resisting BOB since he was taken over so early in life when he was so vulnerable. To me, that kind of implies that he was tainted by BOB's influence and it had many many years to influence him. And yet despite that, they go out of their way in both show and FWWM to show how he was a good father and generally a gpod person.  

 

Laura was, as far as we know, already basically grown by the time BOB began to feed on her darker urges. 

 

Imagine being a child and being confronted with this god like entity of BOB. How can a child even be expected to comprehend let alone resist such a powerful force.

 

He was flawed, yes. He was a bit of a slippery lawyer type who worked with people who weren't exactly Ghandi  but deep down he had a "heart of gold". 

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3 hours ago, Nordelnob said:

Laura was, as far as we know, already basically grown by the time BOB began to feed on her darker urges. 

 

Imagine being a child and being confronted with this god like entity of BOB. How can a child even be expected to comprehend let alone resist such a powerful force.

 

He was flawed, yes. He was a bit of a slippery lawyer type who worked with people who weren't exactly Ghandi  but deep down he had a "heart of gold". 

 

You and I must have been watching a different Twin Peaks. BOB starts having sex with Laura when she's 12 years old. Leland was depicted as a total mess. At best he's struggling unsuccessfully with an undiagnosed bipolar disorder or some such. The dinner scene in FWWM where Leland demands to see Laura's locket, and in which BOB is never indicated to be present, is horrifying. He makes amends by being a blubbering apologetic  mess. He's an emotional terrorist.

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11 minutes ago, The Great Went said:

 

You and I must have been watching a different Twin Peaks. BOB starts having sex with Laura when she's 12 years old. Leland was depicted as a total mess. At best he's struggling unsuccessfully with an undiagnosed bipolar disorder or some such. The dinner scene in FWWM where Leland demands to see Laura's locket, and in which BOB is never indicated to be present, is horrifying. He makes amends by being a blubbering apologetic  mess. He's an emotional terrorist.

I agree with this. Leland was a fucked up mess of a person and father. I'm sure he meant well and deserves plenty of sympathy because of how tragic his story ultimately is, but he is guilty of many many things on many levels. To say "it's Bob actually" feels like it simplifies most of the interesting elements right out of the show, reducing things to "an evil alien made me bad." That doesn't say anything interesting about human beings or our culture; I don't understand what the point of it would be. 

 

At this point I like plenty of the weird world-spanning lore of Twin Peaks as presented in season three, but I am having a ton of trouble reconciling it with the more human scale, character-first, ambiguous-at-best versions of many of these themes and concepts we saw when Lynch was at the helm of the original series or FWWM.

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16 hours ago, dartmonkey said:

I'm not suggesting it can be made 'right' or that there's any way BadCoop's behaviour isn't reprehensible, but I think there are ways to tell more interesting stories with the framework they've constructed.

 

Agreed. Here is my two pence for what it's worth.

 

I wonder if it's possible Audrey's mental state may be related to having had what she thought was a relationship with Good Coop, then the breakdown that occurred when she realised she had been deceived and had fathered Bad Coop's child. That she could have had a complete mental collapse and is now being held in a mental health hospital.

 

Maybe her 'husband' will turn out to be her psychiatrist. The phone conversation where he won't tell Audrey what is going on could have been related to a real conversation he was having while in a consultation session and would/could not inform her due to the unstableness of her condition.

The return of Good Coop to the world has brought her partly out of her illness, enough to give her hallucinations where she can sense she needs to leave to return to Twin Peaks, but not quite enough yet to bring her fully back to reality. 

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I feel not enough theories are taking into account the backwards-playing band in the purple room at the very end of the episode, under the credits.

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