Jake

Twin Peaks Rewatch 46: The Return, Part 11

Recommended Posts

11 minutes ago, BigJKO said:

 

You don't like the show, that's fine, but there's no need to be rude about it.

 

Well, the response from Lost was a bit snarky as well. The observation that this season has been a jumbled mess in need of either an editor, fewer episodes, or both is a valid observation IMO. It's not having "your cake and eating it to" to expect some structure. We may not get it, but it's not unreasonable to want that in place.  We can have differing opinions without being insulting to one another. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, marblize said:

 

I saw a theory on reddit that:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

it's all cooper's dream, a battle of sorts for his soul as he's lying on the floor dying in S2E1, and honestly I could see that working in a non-linear time way rather than a literal 'it's a dream' way, but it'd be so gut-wrenching. 

 

Are we saying this is a Jacobs Ladder scenario? anyone?

 

-----------

 

I do get a little annoyed by peoples need to categorize reality in a television show, especially a David Lynch created one. It's fine to say there may be separate realities taking place within a narrative, but neither is reality. The only reality is you sitting in your living room /bedroom/ airport bathroom/ ect.. watching it on a screen, and lets face it even that reality is somewhat suspect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, fellintooblivion said:

 

It's real easy for Lynch to say it was this or nothing when he got what he wanted, of course it completely ignores the fact that no one else was willing to give him money. It was this or nothing for his career and Showtime blinked first. 

 

I'm pretty sure Lynch's career would have been fine even if he hadn't been able to make a new season of this show. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Schnapple said:

 

I'm pretty sure Lynch's career would have been fine even if he hadn't been able to make a new season of this show. 

 

Yeah I don't think Frost or Lynch needed to do this. I think they were both very interested in doing it (they spent years prepping for it) but I get the impression that their willingness to walk away from the deal and the project is what gave them power to get what they wanted. If they or their careers needed it, I don't think they would have played hardball. "We're making this great or we're not making it" is not what a desperate person says. 

 

"I don't NEED a new season of Twin Peaks. I WANT a new season of Twin Peaks." - Mr. L

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Jake said:

 

Yeah I don't think Frost or Lynch needed to do this. I think they were both very interested in doing it (they spent years prepping for it) but I get the impression that their willingness to walk away from the deal and the project is what gave them power to get what they wanted. If they or their careers needed it, I don't think they would have played hardball. "We're making this great or we're not making it" is not what a desperate person says. 

 

"I don't NEED a new season of Twin Peaks. I WANT a new season of Twin Peaks." - Mr. L

 

I agree that Lynch and Frost didn't need this. However, just because it's their vision, or that its unconventional, or "Lynchian" (if that has any real meaning) doesn't necessarily make it great. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Ford said:

 

I agree that Lynch and Frost didn't need this. However, just because it's their vision, or that its unconventional, or "Lynchian" (if that has any real meaning) doesn't necessarily make it great. 

 

Anythings "greatness" is 99% subjective. Even, I would argue that Alexander the Great, probably not as great as we all have been lead to believe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Ford said:

 

I agree that Lynch and Frost didn't need this. However, just because it's their vision, or that its unconventional, or "Lynchian" (if that has any real meaning) doesn't necessarily make it great. 

 

Yep! As long as everyone remembers that how great/good/bad you find something is your own opinion and may differ from another viewer or critic. 

 

(For me, I have quibbles about a few scenes and there have been brief moments that I thought might be edited badly or scenes that felt like they were cobbled together from footage that wasn't meant for that purpose, but those moments have been a few drops in a huge bucket of otherwise great stuff. I also suspect that the small moments I'm not into will fade away as we get closer to the end of the series... that's actually already happening to me! Anyway that's me right now.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, therealdougiejones said:

Just wanted to point out a couple of cool cast interviews. A podcast with Matthew Lillard went up today on a show called "The Watch" which is part of The Ringer podcast network (owned by Bill Simmons, famous sports columnist/personality). Very revealing about Lynch's process making this new season.

 

Also this interview with Amy Shiels who plays Candie - http://www.vulture.com/2017/07/twin-peaks-amy-shiels-on-her-tragic-backstory-for-candie.html

 

 

Thanks for both of those, that interview with Shiels is great (the air conditioner improv bit is really good).  I'll listen to the Lillard interview later.  Here's a direct link to the show for anyone else who wants it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't agree that Sheriff Truman instantly accepting Hawk's denial of knowledge about the symbol on the map is lazy writing. Finding the right path through trust in intuitions and oracles rather than through reason is a consistent note in the show from the beginning. Also in cosmic horror simply knowledge of the evil at hand is very often portrayed as an enormous burden unto itself. Obviously, Sheriff Truman understands that supernatural business is at foot but clearly doesn't understand the depth of the evil that may be behind all of this. The burden of secrets in general is a lot of what this show is about. I can understand criticizing the overplayed mysticism schtick especially as it relates to Hawk's background as a Native American person BUT in terms of that particular interaction between Truman/Hawk beyond the premise itself I thought was just fine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Jake said:

 

Yep! As long as everyone remembers that how great/good/bad you find something is your own opinion and may differ from another viewer or critic. 

 

(For me, I have quibbles about a few scenes and there have been brief moments that I thought might be edited badly or scenes that felt like they were cobbled together from footage that wasn't meant for that purpose, but those moments have been a few drops in a huge bucket of otherwise great stuff. I also suspect that the small moments I'm not into will fade away as we get closer to the end of the series... that's actually already happening to me! Anyway that's me right now.)

 

Yes, we all have opinions. But there is a distinction between my personal taste vs. something that has impact in some way which could be describe as "great" For example, one doesn't have to personally enjoy Citizen Kane (I do) to recognize its artistic significance and say that it's great. Alexander the Great doesn't have to be "great" in that he was a swell guy, but his cultural impact and influence are difficult to argue against. My issue with Lynch in general, and this season in particular, are that a good bit of the analysis I've read (not here) tend to be effusively complimentary and generally uncritical. I desperately want to love this season. I'm willing to give wide license to the creators. I do anticipate each week hoping something will click. It just hasn't. If it doesn't, so be it. If retrospective critical analysis of the show identifies enough relevance to deem it "great" than I can acknowledge that while simultaneously saying I didn't personally like it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find that this frankly arbitrary (and wholly subjective) notion of a piece of art - be it of high or low culture - being either good or bad becomes less and less interesting to me the older I get. At this point, I mostly just care about whether I like something or not. I like season 3, so I'm happy. I'm always interested in finding out why I and others like something, and I can (less often, but at times) be interested in finding out why someone doesn't like something. But what I'm not interested in, is having someone tell me something is objectively bad and shouldn't be enjoyed.

 

In effect this means I've discarded the notion of guilty pleasures completely. If I like something even though it's supposedly accepted as being "bad" in the cultural consciousness, I'm not gonna feel guilty about it, it's just a pleasure.

Edited by ThatThomas
clarity

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, so lets all agree that the cultural significance of this show is out of our hands. I can certainly understand why anyone wouldn't like this show, it does everything in its power to subvert your expectations and your desire for emotional satisfaction.

 

I think my primary pleasure in this show comes from its ability to keep me guessing as to what is going to happen. Most of us have been watching TV for 25-60 years now, and a show like Chicago fire or whatever, falls into a pattern that those of us that have watched a lot of TV can peg the story lines and the characters after about 5 minutes of watching. Even Game of thrones, which I am now watching back to back with twin peaks every Sunday night, and I love, is starting to feel predictable by comparison. 

 

To be clear it's not the only thing I love about this show, but it seems like the most obvious distinction. I have no idea what is going to happen on this show, its like opening a present every week.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Guts said:

Ok, so lets all agree that the cultural significance of this show is out of our hands. I can certainly understand why anyone wouldn't like this show, it does everything in its power to subvert your expectations and your desire for emotional satisfaction.

 

I think my primary pleasure in this show comes from its ability to keep me guessing as to what is going to happen. Most of us have been watching TV for 25-60 years now, and a show like Chicago fire or whatever, falls into a pattern that those of us that have watched a lot of TV can peg the story lines and the characters after about 5 minutes of watching. Even Game of thrones, which I am now watching back to back with twin peaks every Sunday night, and I love, is starting to feel predictable by comparison. 

 

To be clear it's not the only thing I love about this show, but it seems like the most obvious distinction. I have no idea what is going to happen on this show, its like opening a present every week.

 

I totally agree with this. With traditional TV, the there's usually suspense/anticipation about what's going to happen next, but it's usually assumed that what comes next will at least follow chronologically from what happened at the end of the previous episode. In The Return, it's not what's going to happen next, it's just what's going to happen at all: where/when will we be, who will be there, etc. Some of the plot lines themselves are fairly straightforward to the point where, if this was edited in a more traditional way, we could probably tell what's going to happen next fairly easily, but the bigger question of what plot lines we will even follow this week make it very exciting to tune in every Sunday. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I get that some are excited by the unpredictable nature of the show. But does that come with an expectation that all these threads will eventually come toegether or are you ok if they are just left dangeling? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Ford said:

I get that some are excited by the unpredictable nature of the show. But does that come with an expectation that all these threads will eventually come toegether or are you ok if they are just left dangeling? 

Are you a fan of Lynch's other works or just a fan of the original series? If the end of this doesn't involve wrapping up the narrative in a literally coherent way, I'm totally okay with that. I'm a bigger fan of his movies than I am of the original series. I think Lynch views film as an artistic medium before he views it as a storytelling medium, so the intention behind his film work can be more about creating a mood or an experience that leaves some kind of impression on the viewer - the plot as much as it does exist is just a tool to serve those intentions IMO. I think with Mark Frost's involvement it's likely that things will come together. If you go back to the original series there are long periods of things irrelevant to the main narrative getting most of the screentime - then things start coming together at an almost outrageously breakneck pace near the end of S1, around the Leland reveal, and the final two episodes. I think there is still enough time left to tread a lot of ground forward in terms of the main narrative BUT I'm okay with however fucked up Lynch wants to make it as long as the experience is compelling for me

 

I wouldn't put it past them to end on a cliffhanger and leave room for season 4. I think Lynch and Frost would have been much more emphatic about putting down talks of continuing the show if they hadn't given it some serious thought. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Part of me wonders if the folks in Twin Peaks (barring the Sheriff's dept.) will play much more of a role in this season.  It feels like it is setting up for season four.  I don't feel I've had much of a chance to connect to any of the characters outside the Dougie storyline because they have been given so little to do, and much of what they do do is hard to parse (What is up with Becky?  I know folks have described her as married, but did we know that before this episode?  Norma has barely said anything but "Shelly!" this season, James showed up once, Jacoby doesn't seem to be connected to anything).    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm pretty okay (at this point, the actual end may change my mind naturally) if the show were to wrap up with many or most threads unresolved, and there being no Season 4.

 

The reality is that's most of all television for me already.  I've finished, maybe 3 total television series in the last decade (and all I can for sure name are BSG and Penny Dreadful).  Every other show I've started I've stopped, lost interest, it got canceled, or whatever.  A series stopping, and being unresolved for me, is the natural state of television.  And honestly, I find the ends of most television runs to be disappointing anyways, because wrapping stories in a way that I find satisfying on television seems to be damn near impossible.  So as long as the journey to the end is satisfying, that's good enough for me. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I get the impression that Lynch would happily do a S4 given the opportunity because this broader canvas he and Frost have made for S3 (in all ways - geography, characters, multi-dimensional sheeznit, even 16:9 ;) ) affords him the chance to use pretty much any idea he comes up with (in his interviews he's always discussing 'the idea' - following it, nurturing it, staying true to it, etc) and he gets to spend time with the repertory family he seems to enjoy working with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder if something like this will open the doors for more film directors to come into TV as a medium after seeing what Lynch could do with total control. I can only imagine the kind of mainstream success that could be had with a name like Tarantino or Nolan behind it. I think it will be really interesting to see what impact this has in the directorial world and I think it's been mentioned before - the directorial voice isn't something that's really brought to the front in television and that could take TV to really interesting places IMO. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, therealdougiejones said:

Are you a fan of Lynch's other works or just a fan of the original series? If the end of this doesn't involve wrapping up the narrative in a literally coherent way, I'm totally okay with that. I'm a bigger fan of his movies than I am of the original series. I think Lynch views film as an artistic medium before he views it as a storytelling medium, so the intention behind his film work can be more about creating a mood or an experience that leaves some kind of impression on the viewer - the plot as much as it does exist is just a tool to serve those intentions IMO. I think with Mark Frost's involvement it's likely that things will come together. If you go back to the original series there are long periods of things irrelevant to the main narrative getting most of the screentime - then things start coming together at an almost outrageously breakneck pace near the end of S1, around the Leland reveal, and the final two episodes. I think there is still enough time left to tread a lot of ground forward in terms of the main narrative BUT I'm okay with however fucked up Lynch wants to make it as long as the experience is compelling for me

 

I wouldn't put it past them to end on a cliffhanger and leave room for season 4. I think Lynch and Frost would have been much more emphatic about putting down talks of continuing the show if they hadn't given it some serious thought. 

 

I'm kind of ambivalent on Lynch. I respect his work, but I can't say I'm a huge fan. I enjoyed Blue Velvet and Mullholand Dr. I think for a television series, my sensibilities prefer Lynch in smaller quantities, perhaps that's why I enjoyed the original series because it didn't give him carte blanche. I think I prefer his work in cinema more than this, maybe that's because I have the full context of the work. I might feel better had the series been released all at once. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Bjorn said:

I'm pretty okay (at this point, the actual end may change my mind naturally) if the show were to wrap up with many or most threads unresolved, and there being no Season 4.

 

The reality is that's most of all television for me already.  I've finished, maybe 3 total television series in the last decade (and all I can for sure name are BSG and Penny Dreadful).  Every other show I've started I've stopped, lost interest, it got canceled, or whatever.  A series stopping, and being unresolved for me, is the natural state of television.  And honestly, I find the ends of most television runs to be disappointing anyways, because wrapping stories in a way that I find satisfying on television seems to be damn near impossible.  So as long as the journey to the end is satisfying, that's good enough for me. 

 

But there is a difference between someone having full creative control over the entire run of something, being able to start and finish where they choose, over and against a show having an unsatisfactory ending because a network decided to cancel. If we just get a ton of loose ends because Lynch doesn't care or has no interest in bringing them to conclusion than that would be incredibly disappointing. It's the same thing Lost has been eviscerated for. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Ford said:

 

But there is a difference between someone having full creative control over the entire run of something, being able to start and finish where they choose, over and against a show having an unsatisfactory ending because a network decided to cancel. If we just get a ton of loose ends because Lynch doesn't care or has no interest in bringing them to conclusion than that would be incredibly disappointing. It's the same thing Lost has been evescerated for. 

It's way too early to say. You seem to recognize that this is something that won't make sense until it's finished - so why not save your judgments for how the narrative is wrapped up for the actual wrapping up that is to come

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, therealdougiejones said:

It's way too early to say. You seem to recognize that this is something that won't make sense until it's finished - so why not save your judgments for how the narrative is wrapped up for the actual wrapping up that is to come

 

It's a fair point, but I fully acknowledge my judgment could change. I'm just expressing my frustration to this point. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Ford said:

 

It's a fair point, but I fully acknowledge my judgment could change. I'm just expressing my frustration to this point. 

Given the amount of control Lynch has I think bracing yourself for this to wrap up in a way that is logically incoherent a'la Inland Empire or something would be wise - but I don't think that has to mean that the season will feel unfinished, assuming that there isn't a fourth in the works.  There are different levels of Lynch in his career in terms of how he handles the coherency of his narrative but I'm happy with either extreme. I think as a viewer or a consumer of media in general I'm much more responsive to things like tone, mood, and imagery than I am intrigued by the direct story beats anyway. Mulholland Drive ends in a seemingly definitive way with Diane's death but if you extract all of the narrative that takes place in the real world you end up with about five minutes of footage. Yet it all feels very final and fully realized, everything that takes place within the bewildering dream is made sense of not in a way you can really chart from A to B to C. I think the series will either end with a moment that provides satisfying clarity to previous events or just leads so deep into the nightmare that the impact of the journey itself lends enough of a sense of finality to it all

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now