Jump to content
clyde

Masculinity

Recommended Posts

I guess that's where I'm confused. I am trying to find more solid quotes on what this harassment is and what led to this condemnation. It doesn't help that I'm honestly confused with whether my idea of harassment would match up with what many outer people condemning. I know exactly what sexual harassment is in the workplace for instance. But outside of that, if it is fans and not coworkers, is he a womanizer or harasser (being sleazy and pursuing after "no" was said). Is a womanizer a harasser, like the same thing? I mean if he's doing all of this while in a relationship, I personally consider it sexual harassment on some level because then he's screwing over the one he is in a relationship by going behind her back.

 

But what if you are just sexually aggressive in your wording or how you touch someone and they say no and you back off completely? Is it still harassment because the first thing was sexually aggressive. I also don't even know how to define sexually aggressive, but uh not rape or assault. Like that stupid movie trope where a dude takes a woman golfing and he's like, "Let me show you how to properly swing this club, put your hips here" and he puts his hand on her hips while they awkwardly swing this golf club.

 

I guess what I'm saying in part of saying what I don't know what I'm saying is I'm lost on what the lines are. How we define sexual harassment outside of a legal sense and on a social level seems a bit cloudy to me. That's what I meant about all of that stuff in the first part and why I would just probably never even try to date if I were available because I feel like I would just do something wrong, constantly being too forward, and just not even bother.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Short answer is it's not really any of our business, but as I understand it it mostly has to do with misrepresenting himself and being generally overly insistent and dishonest to get nudes and possibly more.

 

But this still sounds a lot like not trusting women to know the difference between flirting and harassment and believing that they will constantly interpret benign behavior in a negative way as a trait that, again, crosses all cultural boundaries besides gender. I'm pretty sure that just being clueless or awkward doesn't accumulate a string of harassment stories from women throughout an entire industry. If you want more information on whether your own social behavior is acceptable, this is probably not the most beneficial avenue of investigation: I believe there are articles out there for dudes who are worried about being creepy, so maybe mining stories of peoples personal trauma isn't the best source of data.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I get that all the chat logs and whatever aren't our business but this started as a public thing with public tweets involving a public persona whose career is ruined whether or not the investigation as it's going absolves him in some way.

 

To put it this way, I'm not sure I even saw anyone say he was sexually harassing them though. But this seems to be said second hand and especially from Klepek concerning power struggles and creepy rumors. The woman who did release the chat logs, the only one we have info from, says "I'm not saying he's a predator." I just keep hearing "gross" or "problematic" more than harassment here and those two words don't really mean anything to me at this point because they are just so overused to condemn everything without saying anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, syntheticgerbil said:

I get that all the chat logs and whatever aren't our business but this started as a public thing with public tweets involving a public persona whose career is ruined whether or not the investigation as it's going absolves him in some way.

 

To put it this way, I'm not sure I even saw anyone say he was sexually harassing them though. But this seems to be said second hand and especially from Klepek concerning power struggles and creepy rumors. The woman who did release the chat logs, the only one we have info from, says "I'm not saying he's a predator." I just keep hearing "gross" or "problematic" more than harassment here and those two words don't really mean anything to me at this point because they are just so overused to condemn everything without saying anything.

 

A lot of the people who tweeted about it, like Gita Jackson, know Nick a whole lot better than any of us do, though. If she says it's harassment or abuse, I really don't see why she would be wrong, especially since her tweets that "everyone knows but no one says anything" got retweeted so much by other people who know and work with Nick. Like... I don't know, I'm having difficulties. Would detailed accounts actually help Nick's situation, if that's your concern here, or would they just turn a likely career-ending scandal into a definite career-ending scandal?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, syntheticgerbil said:

what if you are just sexually aggressive in your wording or how you touch someone and they say no and you back off completely?

 

IMO it's not just the act itself that makes something harassment or not. 2 things off the top of my head that would apply in this hypothetical situation:

 

1) Could you reasonably be expected to know that the thing you say/manner of touching is unwelcome.

 

2) Is there a power dynamic present that would make her hesitant to say no despite that being what she would want to express if free to do so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess I thought Gita Jackson was speculating or all of the tweets listed in that Neogaf thread posts except the woman who spoke up seemed to be people speculating. I don't know who any of them are and I didn't know who Gita Jackson was. I guess really thinking about this, I'm stuck a bit on it because I want to condemn him as well because of what people close have said. However I'm confused if I should feel this way because there's an investigation at Polygon which is taking like a week now and I would think he would have been fired instantly if there was worse than what the released chat logs said. Even then on the Waypoint podcast Klepek seemed really hesitant in what he was saying. I guess it's weird because there seems to be some grey area here in some ways?

 

But I don't know, I guess I'm confused after reading more. I really shouldn't question what people close to the situation said. Sorry.

9 minutes ago, juv3nal said:

 

IMO it's not just the act itself that makes something harassment or not. 2 things off the top of my head that would apply in this hypothetical situation:

 

1) Could you reasonably be expected to know that the thing you say/manner of touching is unwelcome.

 

2) Is there a power dynamic present that would make her hesitant to say no despite that being what she would want to express if free to do so.

Well that's where I get lost and how it pertains to masculinity. With what I see as masculinity toxic or not, there is an idea to "just go for it" when flirting to letting a women know you are interested without just outright saying "I like you" or "Let's have sex." Like the whole PUA as a culture is a fucking cesspit, however without making a stupid game of negs and stuff there's something men can do with picking up women or without being direct. Romance I guess you would say? Or taking charge as some women enjoy? And since those are vague concepts I have struggled with myself I think a lot of men are just tone deaf and will sometimes do this stuff badly forever, especially when socially inexperienced, where it comes off as unwanted or awkward.

 

On #2, I was assuming the situation as just around friends or something or on a date, but I can't think of a bunch of power dynamics out there besides being stuck with someone in the work place. Maybe if the man drove is it a power dynamic?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, syntheticgerbil said:

I guess I thought Gita Jackson was speculating or all of the tweets listed in that Neogaf thread posts except the woman who spoke up seemed to be people speculating. I don't know who any of them are and I didn't know who Gita Jackson was. I guess really thinking about this, I'm stuck a bit on it because I want to condemn him as well because of what people close have said. However I'm confused if I should feel this way because there's an investigation at Polygon which is taking like a week now and I would think he would have been fired instantly if there was worse than what the released chat logs said. Even then on the Waypoint podcast Klepek seemed really hesitant in what he was saying. I guess it's weird because there seems to be some grey area here in some ways?

 

But I don't know, I guess I'm confused after reading more. I really shouldn't question what people close to the situation said. Sorry.

 

We're not trying to dogpile on you, it really is difficult to track how this thing is going when most of it's through Twitter and Twitter's not always interested in letting you find that tweet you saw once. The way I see it, a lot of people both close to and distant from Nick said that he has a pattern of inappropriate and unwelcome sexual behavior towards women, these statements were confirmed by more people close to Nick, and, when colleagues of his like Ben Pack and Matt Kessler found out, they showed no difficulty in believing them, which is fairly damning for me on its own. No one's been like, "Come on, guys. You all know Nick! He's just really forward," and that rings true with me. I have had friends, not now but in the past, about whom I've never heard anything particularly bad, but if someone ever did say that they'd spun a bunch of bullshit to get them in bed or they'd harassed them in private for nudes or whatever, I'd believe it in a second, because "creepy" is so often just the tip of the iceberg.

 

I don't think people get fired instantly for consistent, shitty behavior if there isn't have physical, well-documented proof like that Google anti-diversity memo. It's usually collecting testimony, often from people who don't really want to say anything, and mediating a solution with the accused and with the victims who do want to talk. I also suspect, from my time at universities and corporations, that the investigation has to take a long time and be largely silent to outside perspectives, to avoid liability issues. I don't think there's any situation whatsoever, barring a published manifesto, where Polygon pushes him out the door right away and proclaims fault.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Gormongous said:

...these statements were confirmed by more people close to Nick, and, when colleagues of his like Ben Pack and Matt Kessler found out, they showed no difficulty in believing them, which is fairly damning for me on its own. I have had friends, not now but in the past, about whom I've never heard anything bad, but if someone did say that they spun a bunch of bullshit to get them in bed or harassed them in private for nudes or whatever, I'd believe it in a second, because "creepy" is often just a holding area for worse but more easily hidden misdeeds.

Yeah that makes sense. I think that's why I was having an easier time condemning Nick at first because of what people close said and then I think I got a bit lost there in the details when reading more about it. I guess I the latter isn't all that important.

 

I guess because Polygon is such a forward thinking site I figured he would be fired immediately. However now that I say that, it's wrong of me to depend on that because I don't think of Chris Grant as caring about any kind of social justice (not a fan of Chris Grant at all) and they also have a parent company, Vox, to deal with who probably places additional restrictions on how this stuff is handled.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It super doesn't matter if any of us condemn him! We're not a jury. This fixation on needing to decide whether someone is a bad person or not is one of the least healthy forms of discourse and it's fucking everywhere and I'm sick of it. So so much of the vapidity and wastefulness of modern discourse falls away if we just let go of the need to determine Who Is Right and Who Is Good and Who Is Bad. He did some things he shouldn't have done and is probably going to face some consequences for it -- and as far as we, the public, are concerned, that's essentially the end of it. If someone is a fan of Nick's work and feels a desire to continue to support him, the question is not "is it okay to support a bad person?" it's "am I okay with supporting a person who has done the things he has done?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dealing with things like this for a company of significant size takes a lot of time. You don't just fire someone without going through the proper process. This is even more true when the employer is a giant multi-national(?) corporation.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it reads as genuine to me and I hope it is

 

it also reads as a bit ignorant (I don't know specifics, but it sounds like some of the allegations are much more intense than "flirting"), but I know from personal experience (albeit not with this sort of thing) that it's sometimes very hard to recognize how extreme your own behavior is

 

it remains to be seen if it actually is genuine

 

it also seems unlikely I'll ever find out, because I have a feeling this will mean he's never a public figure again, but I guess we'll see...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We'll probably never hear more of this unless Klepek wants to post his piece still. Sort of hope he does honestly. Reading Nick's apology letter, I'm initially drawn to thinking what I was thinking earlier, is it really THAT bad or are we too sensitive now? But I'm hearing it from the mouth of someone I'm already predisposed to like and still have no info and never will so I think it's best to take caution for me to mess with his content. Pretty sure his career is over no matter what. Even if some people still like him, there will always be dirt on "that guy," people bringing this up in the comments of every bit of content. People will definitely need to all distance themselves. I'm sure his misbehavior and firing has those on KotakuInAction giddy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dunno, I second guess myself all the time like that. "can it really be that bad? do people just want to fight? are we all turning into a bunch of babies?"

 

I ignore that voice because if someone tells me they're hurt by something, I should listen to them, give them the benefit of the doubt. I know what it's like when people don't listen to me expressing hurt...

 

in this case, I'll never have all the information, and I don't need it, but the volume of alleged incidents lead me to believe that he actually fucked up royally - his own admittance of guilt now just cements it as doubly true, without wiggle room

 

or maybe this is just more softboyin' what do I know

 

edit: and now I'm hearing some of this shit was with underage girls so I've lost all willingness to give him another chance oops oops oops

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah I think I failed to convey what I mean properly. I do still feel somewhat conflicted, but I am trying really hard not to be for all of the people who are hurt.

 

I wonder if Sailor Bee would say anything on the matter? The only reason I know they aren't dating anymore as of earlier this year is because she said on her Tumblr.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

everyone process stuff at their own rate. There is no value in coming to a conclusion if you don't feel confident im explaining to yourself why you came to that conclusion.

we're all expected to have the hottest and rightest take moments after it happens and that's not particularly productive or enlightening.

i hope nick apologizes to the people he hurt directly.

i hope that this being taken seriously means that we can hold men accountable for their actions in the future.

its okay to feel confused or upset about this. Its important to continue thinking about what you're feeling and why you're feeling it, even after the 24 news cycle has churned through this and on to something else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry to go back to this but I have an update for y'all.

I was just talking to my wife about the way I differ in thinking about the concept of self-reliance from how y'all do and she pointed out that the only television shows I watch are Korean rom-coms. I think that might have a lot to do with why I have such a distinctly different association.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I find the worst about this aspect of BBT is that it's hard to show people how terrible and insidious it is because each isolated instance can be dismissed with things like 'oh yeah that joke wasn't great.' You then have to come up with a plethora of examples before you can even get anywhere. Bleah.

 

The amount of self-hatred the nerds display makes it a good subject for this thread as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's a really good video (though as a BTTF fanboy I feel duty-bound to point out that this is the second video in which he mischaracterises George McFly's peeping as being portrayed as acceptable or normal). I'm glad I gave up on Big Bang Theory after the first 5 minutes because of bad jokes and creepy leads.

 

These are good illustrative tools of how awful BBT is in those respects too:

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That channel has a lot of great videos related to masculinity in pop culture. I strongly suggest checking more of them out.  Thanks for sharing it, clyde.

 

I find it really difficult sometimes to grapple with the idea of masculinity and femininity, and the relationship between identity and expression. It's sometimes hard to define masculinity in ways that don't just seem like reinforcing stereotypes. However, whenever aspects of masculinity are pointed out to me in terms of "here is something men do a lot", and then explaining why it is expected of men, how it is reinforced, and why it is good or bad, it often resonates with me super clearly. That's what I think this channel is good at doing. Something like the video about the "Born Sexy Yesterday" trope is a great way to approach how certain types of relationships are presented in ways that support a dominant form of masculinity in a way that is degrading to women. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×