Jake

Idle Thumbs 298: For You, Not Them

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Some silly narrative observations from the "Super Mario Odyssey" trailer: 

 

As Ian Hinck pointed out in the Easy Allies stream of the Switch presentation, the scene at 2:05-2:07 where demented costumed white rabbits pull up in an airship clearly has a "Truman Show"-esque transparent geodesic dome in the background. People have picked up on the weird artifice of this game from the initial 5 second glimpse in the October 20th Switch reveal video, with the weird transparent pseudo-ice present on the Dia de los Muertos-themed level. But the transparent geodesic dome, replete with what seems to be a crane or structural support of some kind on the left side, seems to confirm that something very strange is going on with the metanarrative of this particular Mario universe. (This is also a clever way to make the obviously flat, 2D mountains in the background of this scene seem more impressive than they otherwise would. Yes, the mountains are just a fake, flat background and not actually 3D modeled, but that works with the conceit of this game--that every environment Mario is in is a fake construction.)

 

Here's a still frame of the geodesic dome just mentioned: Geodesic dome.jpg

 

Mario games have long ago established the artificial nature of the worlds in which they take place, the most obvious example being how "Super Mario Bros. 3" is a stage play (canonically confirmed by Miyamoto himself), as well as the fact that Miyamoto considers the characters of the Mario universe to be like a "troupe of actors," playing different roles and adjusting as they need to for the particular production they are involved in. But "Super Mario Odyssey" seems to be taking this concept to an even greater level.

 

Consider also the human characters seen in New Donk City throughout the trailer. There are some bizarre things going on with them, *aside* from the fact that they coexist with Mario and are so different to him proportionally. Look at the human crossing the street and the two walking on the sidewalk at 0:27-0:29. They are jittering, running at a much lower framerate than the rest of the game, to the point that they almost look like cardboard cutouts instead of 3D models (although I think they are still 3D modeled). Many noticed this aspect of the game and seem to think it is due to system performance/current build optimization of the game--that Nintendo purposefully made all on-screen humans in the background/not close to Mario run at a way lower framerate, in order to have more on screen and create the illusion of a densely populated world. I don't discount that possibility, but look closely at 0:32-0:36. Most of the human characters in the courtyard (in front of presumably City Hall) disappear as Mario gets closer to them. This seems like an odd reversal of how background details generally work in video games--that being that more detail "pops in" as characters get close to them. Granted, six or so humans still remain (the five or so that vanish also seem motionless, again making them seem more like cardboard cutouts), so maybe it's just a case of Nintendo purposefully putting fake static humans in the background to again create the illusion of density who then disappear as the character gets closer to them, and only the animated, fully realized humans remain. But what if like the geodesic dome the implication/intention of them behaving that way is that they are not supposed to represent real humans at all within the logic/narrative of the game world. (Ha, it can get a bit difficult to acknowledge the obvious fictional aspect of the work itself when talking about the artifice of the universe within the world presented by the fictional work.) 

 

Point being: I think there is enough evidence to indicate the humans walking around New Donk City are not meant to depict humans at all, and that like the pseudo-ice, geodesic dome/fake backgrounds, etc., they are meant to be interpreted as fabrications within the universe of this fictional world. Look at the human behind the fire hydrant at 0:39-0:40. He seemingly slowly dissolves into subatomic particles before fading away, instead of instantly vanishing like the humans in the courtyard did in the earlier scene. The humans seem artificial/holographic in most of this trailer.

 

So, what is all this leading up to--the pseudo-ice, geodesic dome indicating fake backgrounds/worlds, possibly fake humans? After the trailer ran in the presentation, the game's producer Yoshiaki Koizumi described it as a "journey to an unknown world" and Mario as having "jumped out of the Mushroom Kingdom." Does that rule out Bowser or someone else (Wart/Waluigi/etc.) having built an elaborate "Truman Show"-esque geodesic dome within the Mushroom Kingdom to put Mario through these deliberately constructed trials and tribulations? Would Nintendo possibly do something similar to what 

 

Blow did with the secret ending of "The Witness"

and reveal that this fake world is all just a product of Takashi Tezuka/Miyamoto/the entire development team at Nintendo EPD's imaginations/minds? I think this latter option could come off fairly corny, but surely Nintendo would handle it better and not have it be as

 

self-aggrandizing and belittling of everyone else who worked on the game as Blow did.

 

Personally, I think it'd be better if like "Super Mario Bros. 3" they just leave this metanarrative element of the world being artificial as a subtle/background element. I think the "Bowser had his minions construct this elaborate geodesic dome inside the Mushroom Kingdom" revelation could be kind of cute/funny and the better of the two possibilities I presented, but I still think just leaving it unexplained/to people's imaginations is probably the best way to go with it. In any case, this is one of the weirdest, most interesting looking "Mario" games Nintendo has ever made. You can throw your magical hat and jump on it, for god's sakes. Can't wait to experience it.

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I'm really excited that you're loosening the format. Episodes where you just let the conversation take you wherever it wants are my favorite!

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3 hours ago, Siromatic said:

Would Nintendo possibly do something similar to what 

Yo, spoiler tags work a lot better if you say what you're about to spoil outside of the tags somewhere

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As a child I was unnerved when I discovered that Howard Stern looked exactly like my mental picture of him.  I pictured short hair instead of long, but otherwise I had constructed the eyes, the face, the build all correctly, all without ever seeing him.

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To me, the name "Idle Thumbs" means, "What we [gamers] talk about when our thumbs are idle."  Games, sure, but not just games.

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2 hours ago, TychoCelchuuu said:

I will ONLY listen if the podcast DOESN'T discuss games. I demand 100% ROBOT NEWS and GOLDBLUM ANTICS.

you've been well served for years, let's be honest here.

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6 hours ago, Jake said:

you've been well served for years, let's be honest here.

Right, so my request is EMINENTLY REASONABLE and I will feel JUSTLY SLIGHTED if a game is ever discussed except in the context of how Jake hasn't played it or any other game. I will also make an exception for Far Cry 2, which is less of a game and more of a religion at this point.

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I want to be supportive and I do love the non-game related discussions (Robot News, Really passionate discussions about recent media, crazy diversions into hypothetical worlds, Nick Breckon), Idle Thumbs has always been to me 'Games. Video Games. Videooo Gaammes.' I don't know, maybe the fact that every week you felt obligated to talk about new video games you've played (you've mentioned that in previous episodes) gave it a unique spark that meant you talked about cool games I had never even heard of before. Your description of Miasmata stood out to me as a particular noteworthy episode. Your recap of your Crusader's Kings stream was amazing because it focused and retold a coherent story from a 12+ hours long livestream, filling in details and building up the characters with the help of Jake's contributions.

 

 

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I am fine either way but if it hadn't been for Idle Thumbs, I would not have played Far Cry 2, Trine,Torchlight and a few others that I feel would have been necessary to my gaming vocabulary.

 

Speaking of what you look like, my partner asked if I knew you guys, to which I said 'not really' (I know Spaff). As you were talking some more she just said that one of you sounded sexy. She didn't clarify who but proceed to give me a long story about how she had done temp work at this place and earned a ton of money while drooling over a guy that had sounded like one of you.

 

 

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I think as long as it doesn't turn into a podcast exclusively about Disneyland or world or whatever I'm good.

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All the stuff about Toxoplasmosis in cats and rats and its bizarre effects on the human brain reminded me of a bunch of very similar stuff in Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain -

 

 

The game features a version of the Wohlbachia parasite designed to infect the vocal cords of the host and kill them if they try to speak certain languages (or in some cases speak at all). In real life, this is a thing usually spread amongst insects that can have bizarre effects on the host; in the game it becomes a metaphor for the way that languages spread through society like competing memes. 

The big bad guy's master plan is to use it in a sort of anti-American post-colonial project to totally eradicate the English language. As usual with the Metal Gear games, there's a certain amount of sympathy expressed for his plan; you're fighting to stop him, but it's ultimately to maintain the status quo rather than to bring justice to the world. We get a lot of stuff about the gradual eradication of Native American languages, for example, and how the Americans used Navajo 'code talkers' in WWII to transfer secret messages because their dialect had never been written down. A lot of this I genuinely never knew about before. It's great.

On the other hand, there's the special version of the parasite that Quiet carries that means she absolutely cannot wear any clothes. So, you know. :blink: 

 

 

I'm sure Kojima could do some wild stuff with cat poop.

 

Oh, and I also wanted to add my voice to the many people who've already said they really enjoyed this episode and appreciate it when the podcast veers away from its stated subject matter. Though I would also add that, like glimpsing a comet with an elliptical orbit some hundreds of years long, it would be nice to have a good stare at the bright glimmer of some intense game-specific chat once every so often. But not too often! It's less special if it happens too often.

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I listen to Idle Thumbs for insightful commentary on video games that devolves into the three of you trying to crack each other up, and in the past you've kept a good balance between interesting/magical/insightful and nonsense. These last four episodes have been so full of nonsense I've considered unsubscribing - I only found out now that this is an experiment on your part as I struggled through the last episode. Follow your bliss, I guess, it's a free podcast so it's not like I'm out anything, but I would unsubscribe. I'd suggest winding up Idle Thumbs as a podcast and starting a new podcast for pop culture riffs, though, especially with a big format change.

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I rarely post here but I've been listening off and on since 08.  I most recently came back since it was the original crew again and it started to focus more and more on video games. I don't mind some of the tangents but I feel like they mostly end up covering the same handful of topics (robots, Jeff Goldblum, Disney, George Lucas, etc...). If you want to continue down that path by all means - I've already got tons of enjoyment and my $10 kickstarter backing worth from the cast - but I might end up checking out in a few weeks.  Personally I think should just start a new show wholly dedicated to pop culture or whatever and keep the video game show as is, but again it's up to you.

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4 minutes ago, K-bohls! said:

Personally I think should just start a new show wholly dedicated to pop culture or whatever and keep the video game show as is, but again it's up to you.

 

As appealing as that idea is in the abstract, it would only work if we played enough games in a week to fill a weekly video game podcast, and that is unlikely to happen. I think it'd end up being a recipe for a disappointing show (and we'd be producing two shows a week that way, which would be a little intense, since this is none of our actual jobs!).

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3 minutes ago, K-bohls! said:

I rarely post here but I've been listening off and on since 08.  I most recently came back since it was the original crew again and it started to focus more and more on video games. I don't mind some of the tangents but I feel like they mostly end up covering the same handful of topics (robots, Jeff Goldblum, Disney, George Lucas, etc...). If you want to continue down that path by all means - I've already got tons of enjoyment and my $10 kickstarter backing worth from the cast - but I might end up checking out in a few weeks.  Personally I think should just start a new show wholly dedicated to pop culture or whatever and keep the video game show as is, but again it's up to you.

 

This won't convince anyone to keep listening if they aren't interested (and I won't attempt to persuade anyone because I myself have certainly stopped listening to plenty of podcasts over the years), but just by way of explanation—at least in my case, continuing the video game show is just increasingly not really a feasible option. The reason I was interested in exploring different ground with the podcast is because I've sort of just gotten burned out by having this pressure week-in week-out to play enough games to have enough to talk about. And as long time listeners know, there are stretches of time in which we don't even really manage to swing that. It has made my relationship to video games feel somewhat strained and chore-like, and adds a decent amount of stress to my week because video games really are the most time-consuming form of entertainment to enjoy. I'd rather be able to just play video games at the pace that I am personally compelled to for my own enjoyment, rather than often getting to the point on Monday evenings where I feel like I have to "cram" for the next day's podcast recording.

 

I'm not saying any of this to complain—I am the one who put myself in this position in the first place. I signed up to do the show. It's just at the point now (and has been getting there for a while) where I don't think I can keep doing it indefinitely. So instead of just stopping, I'd like to find a new version of the show instead. And if that also fizzles out, then maybe it's time to quit!

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5 minutes ago, Chris said:

 

The reason I was interested in exploring different ground with the podcast is because I've sort of just gotten burned out by having this pressure week-in week-out to play enough games to have enough to talk about.

 

Honestly I just enjoy the video game discussion. You can talk about video game news and just talk about the games you play as you naturally play them. For instance I'm playing the new Resident Evil and I'd love to hear how you guys feel about the switch to first person, etc... You don't necessarily have to play it to have an opinion on it. And then if you do play it you can either reinforce that original perception or update your thoughts. And if you do decide to keep the tangents (which I still enjoy immensely) then at least change the opening theme from "Videooo gAAAAaaaaaaAAAmes" to "Randomm ConversaaaaAAAAtion".

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I'd rather have a conversational podcast with the Idle Thumbs crew that occasionally included discussion of games and its relationship to other fields/the human condition than not have a podcast at all. I've listened to a number of gaming-centric podcasts where people just burnt out and stopped for the same reasons Chris just mentioned above. If it's not literally your job, and sometimes, even if it is, it's a grueling pace to maintain.

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Just now, Remerbr said:

 

Honestly I just enjoy the video game discussion. You can talk about video game news and just talk about the games you play as you naturally play them. For instance I'm playing the new Resident Evil and I'd love to hear how you guys feel about the switch to first person, etc... 

 

Yeah, I totally get that. I don't know what to say really other than it's just not what I'm feeling anymore, really. I'm not saying this to plant a stake in the ground or anything, just trying to be as honest as possible about where I am. I could imagine, as we go forward, figuring a way to do some kind of recurring video game podcast content through Idle Thumbs, but I don't think I'm up for a mandatory weekly recorded video game discussion anymore, at this point in my life. It's a bummer I know, but I don't think there's really a way around it. I don't want Idle Thumbs to feel like a job, unless it actually pays like a job (which it definitely does not, haha), and I'd like to preempt it getting to that point.

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Just now, Chris said:

 

It's a bummer I know, but I don't think there's really a way around it.

 

I still love listening to you guys. Seriously I'm only saying something because you invited discussion on it during one of the casts. The tangents are actually probably more entertaining. But I'm also a game developer so I can't get enough of that nerdy game discussion. Really, don't feel like you have to appease anyone because this is your thing and your guys' dynamic is entertaining enough that you literally CAN talk about random bullshit and I'll always listen.

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Just now, Remerbr said:

 

I still love listening to you guys. Seriously I'm only saying something because you invited discussion on it during one of the casts. The tangents are actually probably more entertaining. But I'm also a game developer so I can't get enough of that nerdy game discussion. Really, don't feel like you have to appease anyone because this is your thing and your guys' dynamic is entertaining enough that you literally CAN talk about random bullshit and I'll always listen.

 

Cheers, it means a lot to get responses like that. There have been more than I've expected!

 

And to reiterate, I really can't blame anyone for being bummed about this and wouldn't begrudge anyone for unsubscribing. If you want to try and hang on for a few weeks, I suspect we're going to get better at this version of the show, because we're really feeling it out in realtime right now, but all reactions are fair!

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