Jake

Idle Weekend November 20, 2016: Electing Better

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9 hours ago, TokyoDan said:

And I'm not pretending anything. It's the vibe you give off. 

 

And another thing. You got to tone down your superior patronising attitude. You can't make a point without talking down to people. A bit a self-reflection would do you some good at improving your ability to get people on your side.

 

There's some irony in complaining about being talked down-to while talking down to jennegatron. You miss the points made, repeatedly, in favour of some meta-discussion where you patronise her based on what you think is best for "the discourse".

 

I think this has been a fantastic effort by jennegatron to get something out of this thread that isn't repeated unproven assertions about (illegal) immigrants and the sweeping generalisations about "liberals" and the like. She's even made it clear that the issue isn't individuals (though of course they can contribute), it's systemic. Wide-reaching, and pervasive.

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18 hours ago, TokyoDan said:

And I'm not pretending anything. It's the vibe you give off. 

 

A bit a self-reflection would do you some good at improving your ability to get people on your side.

 

So please..have the last word. I know it's important to you.

Speaking of patronizing...

 

You can't have your cake and eat it, too, buddy. You're taking a very holier-than-thou tone on a topic you clearly don't have much experience actually discussing.

 

There's this tendency, which jenna has mentioned, to be afraid to call out racism. You wouldn't want to upset anyone, golly gee! Think about that for a second. People are upset because of a word. (Ironically, many of these people, in my exeprience, will also insist that words are just words and shouldn't hurt anyone. "Ironically.") Think about that. Really think. I want you to consider what it actually means to be called a racist. I want you to think about what it's like to be someone society treats as inferior, and then be that someone who calls out the act, and then be told "nah I don't hate anyone, I couldn't possibly do wrong, fuck you, how DARE you, get away from me". 'Cause, guy? That's the message people send when they refuse to acknowledge the consequences of their own actions.

 

From where I'm sitting, you're just whining about a word while not considering the actions people take that can, in fact, be called racist, even when they themselves would repeatedly insist they don't hate anyone.

 

I mean, shit, I have racist thoughts all the time. Everybody does. Even you! Though, being raised in Japan, obviously you'll be having different sorts of racist thoughts than I do. My Japanese teacher in college hated Koreans and was very open about it. She was raised to fear them for various reasons outside her control. At the time, I found it amusing, I guess, but now I just think it's kinda sad.

 

Having these thoughts is not something I'm proud of, but it's also not something I have any control over. I was raised this way. Not by my parents, necessarily, but the way society portrays people who aren't white. Entertainment, media, government. I have different racist thoughts about different races, but it's all sourced from the same place: (Western) society's tendency to treat non-white people as Other. That's racism. Systemic racism, in particular. It seems like you are unfamiliar with the concept, given Jenna's descriptions and examples and your insistence to maintain complete and utter politeness in all, but that's the most basic definition. I'm sure someone else could describe it more eloquently, but hey.

Moreover, sometimes you gotta tell the niceties to fuck right off. This isn't a black and white issue. There's nuance, there's subtlety. Saying someone is being racist is not the same thing as condemning to be hated by everyone who's better than them. Sometimes you need to stop worrying about hurting the poor white boy's feelings and just let them know they're fucking up. That's how I learned.

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On 11/24/2016 at 2:45 AM, TokyoDan said:

Your point make sense. But what's the solution. Just to let anybody in?

 

Invest in neighbouring countries. The "refugee crisis", illegal immigration in the US (and other places) is because people want to leave bad places and go to better places. More often than not, these bad places are bad because of the good places. The US sustains Mexico's drug economy, the war on drugs hasn't done anything to change that. The Syrian refugee crisis happened because of war whose roots could be, convincingly, have roots in destabilization and strife in the region caused by western powers meddling in it.   

 

but whatever, the point is, if countries helped each out each other in meaningful ways and the developed nations helped the under-developed ones (and no, IMF/World Bank is not the answer) then there would be less reasons for people to risk their lives, the well-being of the families,and give up ever seeing their homelands again just to get a chance at a better life or to support their families financially from abroad. And stop fighting wars and de-stabilizing already fragile regions too. 

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Just popping in to say that like Turrican above (excellent post sir) I was aghast at the responses of Danielle and Rob to the Trump victory

And the perception of the world revealed in their comments

Their perception seems to be entirely that of the corporate mainstream liberal media cartel - aka imperial propaganda system for 'progressives'

The notion Trump might nuke Syria; or that the expansion of NATO missiles and armies right to the borders of Russia is justified

Etc

 

I am not a Trumper, but I was relieved Clinton did not get her mitts on the nuclear codes

she is as Turrican outlined an elite-funded warmonger

In fact she is a neocon who masquerades as a Democrat

 

Trump by the way is not a Republican

In fact he had to whoop the Republican party and literally wrest the nomination from their grasp

He then had to whoop both the Democratic party and the corporate media to win

What will he do for an encore?

No one knows

 

All that said I still love you guys and Idle Weekend is one of my favorite listens (so long as you avoid geopolitics)

So dont mind me

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A few quick notes:

- Liberals and progressives are different. The difference isn't a deep one, but it is important, and when you go learn why, you'll realize why your accusations are ridiculous.

- "Corporate mainstream liberal media cartel." As opposed to Fake Facebook News! Which is worse? Well, one of them helps Trump...

- It's hilarious that anyone could be afraid of Clinton having their hands on the nuke codes and simultaneously be relieved that Trump does. It's like you haven't been paying attention this past year and a half.
- Hating Trump does not necessitate loving Hillary. Stop. Just stop.

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15 minutes ago, Twig said:

It's hilarious that anyone could be afraid of Clinton having their hands on the nuke codes and simultaneously be relieved that Trump does. It's like you haven't been paying attention this past year and a half.

 

Yeah, I wasn't Clinton's biggest booster, although I was ultimately happy to vote for her in the election, but only one of the two major candidates voiced a willingness to use nuclear weapons (and to increase nuclear proliferation worldwide). It wasn't Clinton. If you think that Clinton's hypothetical interest in nuclear weapons is more real and more dangerous than the interest that Trump outright stated multiple times... well, you've probably got some biases to unpack there.

 

4 minutes ago, osmosisch said:

I'm aware of one real media cartel, ie. Murdoch's and that's not exactly liberal.

 

Yeah, here we are again: the visible threat is less real than an invisible one.

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well wooben climate change is just a product of the liberal media cartel it's not real c'mon

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My main concern during this recent US election cycle was world peace. From her rhetoric and track record Hillary seemed the greater threat in that respect to me.

Under Hillary there would be a real threat of war with Russia - in Europe. We Europeans have been down that road several times in recent history and it has not worked out well for anyone.

Domestically Hillary would have been more of the same; meaning a continuation of the gradual reduction of rights and fiscal supports for most Americans as has been the trend for some decades now.

This gradual decline in quality of life for ordinary working people would proceed in spite of progressive sounding rhetoric and minor policy adjustments - just as it has under Obama.

 

I have no idea what Trump will actually do - if he gets into office; which is not a done deal yet.

There are still the recounts and the electoral college yet to go.

 

I think the democrats would have won if Sanders was the candidate.

I think many people who voted for Trump were voting against Hillary and the establishment

They dont want more of the same - they want change

Trump was offering the hope of change...

Maybe Trump's promises of hope and change will turn out to be as empty as those of Obama

We shall see

 

For me as a European observer who will be impacted by the outcome in many ways

this election was a choice between a rock and a hard place

There was no right choice; only the hope of the lesser evil 

 

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"Domestically Hillary would have been more of the same; meaning a continuation of the gradual reduction of rights and fiscal supports for most Americans as has been the trend for some decades now."

 

so literally the opposite of what happened under obama

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4 minutes ago, Athis said:

Maybe Trump's promises of hope and change will turn out to be as empty as those of Obama

 

Trump did not promise hope and change. He promised fear and anger. Thus far, he is delivering on those promises.

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27 minutes ago, Athis said:

My main concern during this recent US election cycle was world peace. From her rhetoric and track record Hillary seemed the greater threat in that respect to me.

Under Hillary there would be a real threat of war with Russia - in Europe. We Europeans have been down that road several times in recent history and it has not worked out well for anyone.

 

It may come to pass that Trump is willing to appease Putin in the latter's imperial ambitions and a confrontation is averted there. I am unconvinced that such appeasement will better the lives of people in Europe, Central Asia, and the Middle East. Meanwhile, his stated interest in hostile confrontations with China, Iran, and others promise conflict there that not even Clinton would have touched.

 

27 minutes ago, Athis said:

Domestically Hillary would have been more of the same; meaning a continuation of the gradual reduction of rights and fiscal supports for most Americans as has been the trend for some decades now.

This gradual decline in quality of life for ordinary working people would proceed in spite of progressive sounding rhetoric and minor policy adjustments - just as it has under Obama.

 

Are you aware that Trump is the candidate who talked about mass deportations of undocumented immigrants, reintroduction of stop-and-frisk with minorities, and a government registry of all Muslims? Are you aware that he has voiced a willingness to roll back LGBT rights, even as he wrapped himself in a rainbow flag, and to criminalize large portions of women's health? Are you aware that his tax code lowers taxes on people making above $225,000 and either leaves alone or raises taxes on the middle class? How were these things, if even one of them comes to pass, going to be better for ordinary working people than even the worst-case scenario neoliberalism-as-usual of Clinton's presidency?

 

Again, you've exhibited a disturbing propensity to project your worst political fears onto Clinton while ignoring the things that Trump actually said. He's told us what kind of president he wants to be. We have to assume that he meant what he said, or else we assume that he was lying to get elected. Either way doesn't bode well for a transparent and responsible presidency.

 

27 minutes ago, Athis said:

I think many people who voted for Trump were voting against Hillary and the establishment

They dont want more of the same - they want change

Trump was offering the hope of change...

Maybe Trump's promises of hope and change will turn out to be as empty as those of Obama

We shall see

tumblr_oge0omyFru1vbwf2ko1_1280.png

If Obama came into office on a platform of peace and, because of the existing infrastructure of the post-9/11 government, ended up deporting the most immigrants and assassinating the most foreign nationals of any president ever, I have zero faith that someone like Trump won't be exactly the same, at best, and much worse, at worst. What's he going to do, replace all the hawkish bureaucrats and generals who've served since Clinton and Bush with his ready supply of peace-loving Republicans? And that's even if he doesn't keep any of the other promises he made on the campaign trail.

 

Basically, your combination of ignorance, naivete, and willful self-delusion makes me impossibly sad.

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11 hours ago, Athis said:

My main concern during this recent US election cycle was world peace. From her rhetoric and track record Hillary seemed the greater threat in that respect to me.

Under Hillary there would be a real threat of war with Russia - in Europe. We Europeans have been down that road several times in recent history and it has not worked out well for anyone.

 

 

The idea that a former Secretary of State with a long history of diplomacy with foreign nations is going to be more reckless with the military than a hate monger who goes on a rage bender every time he's criticized by a comedy show is a bit of a ludicrous position. 

 

The potential for war with Russia is a concerning issue, most definitely, but the reason that an encounter is so possible is not because the US is actively antagonizing Russia, but because Russia is pursuing a very aggressive foreign policy that endangers security and stability abroad. Trump avoiding any potential for a war by being Putin's lapdog is not going to be a positive thing for safety and stability on the world stage. 

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Only time will tell what the real outcomes will be and whether Trump will be the monster many of you expect him to be

 

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I'm interested in what you actually think of the counterpoints people have given. I know it can be tricky pushing back on a forum that is clearly liberal home turf, and the back and forth has in my opinion passed the point of anyone actually registering what the other side has to say, but I'm just curious of what you're expectations are based on precedents Trump has set for himself as outlined in many of the posts above, or whether you don't have any beyond 'only time will tell'.

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There's really no need to wait. Trump campaigned as a bigoted monster, and since being elected, has been selecting bigots of his same strain for positions in his government. 

 

If you have someone who says he will burn down your house if you give him access, and after you give him access he starts dousing the whole thing in gasoline and sending people out to buy him matches, you don't have to wait to render judgement until the house has been lit aflame. He told you what he was going to do, and if that was not enough to believe him, he started to make preparations to follow through. Thinking he deserves any benefit of the doubt is unbelivably naive. 

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10 minutes ago, Wooben said:

I'm interested in what you actually think of the counterpoints people have given. I know it can be tricky pushing back on a forum that is clearly liberal home turf, and the back and forth has in my opinion passed the point of anyone actually registering what the other side has to say, but I'm just curious of what you're expectations are based on precedents Trump has set for himself as outlined in many of the posts above, or whether you don't have any beyond 'only time will tell'.

 

Yes, the tone and content of the replies sends a very clear message that my perspective is unwelcome in this forum

and I dont want to argue about it

But to your specific question about Trump - I see an extraordinary individual who has created enormous personal success in his life thus far

As a man accustomed to leading and directing large numbers of people he will be a very capable president in practical terms

but what he will actually do when he gets into office, I have no idea

I prefer to wait and see

I will judge him by his actions

 

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30 minutes ago, Athis said:

 

Only time will tell what the real outcomes will be and whether Trump will be the monster many of you expect him to be

 

Considering his cabinet appointments I don't think there is much doubt. A climate change denier, a school privatizer, an anti-semite and racist from a conspiracy theory laden website. Those are just off the top of my head.

 

Yes, the tone and content of the replies sends a very clear message that my perspective is unwelcome in this forum

and I dont want to argue about it

But to your specific question about Trump - I see an extraordinary individual who has created enormous personal success in his life thus far

As a man accustomed to leading and directing large numbers of people he will be a very capable president in practical terms

but what he will actually do when he gets into office, I have no idea

I prefer to wait and see

I will judge him by his actions

 

 

He got his start with a multi-million dollar loan from his father, considering how our economy is set up for the rich to succeed, it would take a complete idiot to not still be rich after starting out with $14 million. His business career has mostly been one of failure, he has been most successful as a brand ambassador, he doesn't actually run most of the businesses with his name on them.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/debtwire/2015/08/18/a-trip-down-donald-trumps-bankruptcy-memory-lane/#44f3fc8075dd

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Yes indeed, he's a billionaire failure to the tune of $3.7 billion according to Forbes

Only an idiot could take a good start in life and a loan from his dad and fail so spectacularly

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7 minutes ago, Athis said:

Yes indeed, he's a billionaire failure to the tune of $3.7 billion according to Forbes

Only an idiot could take a good start in life and a loan from his dad and fail so spectacularly

" in 2004, he presented unaudited financials to Deutsche Bank while seeking a loan, claiming he was worth $3.5 billion. The bank concluded Trump was, to say the least, puffing; it put his net worth at $788 million"

 

I'm not saying he isn't rich, but its not at all clear that he is the reason for his wealth or that he doesn't continually misrepresent it. Before his Casino went belly up he was a serial failed businessman with a rich father backing him, he later started selling his name as a brand and not directly running businesses, this was a far more successful strategy.

" Around the country, buyers were led to believe they were purchasing apartments in buildings overseen by Trump, although his only involvement in many cases was getting paid for the use of his brand. For example, in 2009, Trump and a developer named Jorge Pérez unveiled plans for Trump Hollywood, a 40-story oceanfront condominium that they boasted would sell at premium prices and feature such luxuries as Italian cabinetry. But with the entire real estate market imploding, condo buyers were looking for bargains, and sales were minuscule. In 2010, lenders foreclosed on the $355 million project. Even though Trump’s name was listed on the condominium’s website as the developer, he immediately distanced himself from the project, saying he had only licensed his name."
http://www.newsweek.com/2016/08/12/donald-trumps-business-failures-election-2016-486091.html

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In addition to what Cordeos just said, there's also the fact that Trump has indisputably built his fortune on a record of defrauding people, whether it's the Trump University scam that he just paid out $25m to avoid the indignity of being the President who was on trial for fraud or his more normalized fraud where he defrauded contractors by just deciding he wasn't going to pay them after work was complete. 

 

Trump is a prime example for why this country needs better mechanisms to prevent the entrenchment of power via inherited wealth. 

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Well I am not pitching in to defend Trump; but he is clearly not a failure by any rational or objective measure

He is only a failure in the minds of people who see him in exclusively negative terms

The estimate figure of his wealth I gave is from Forbes this Sept; but really no one knows exactly what he is worth; perhaps not even Trump himself

and since his wealth is so invested in real estate and in multiple countries it's value is constantly changing according to markets

But any way to look at it he has taken a very good start in life and expanded it exponentially

 

There are definitely issues with inherited wealth and the elite families and their foundations etc

In my opinion the US political system has been entirely usurped by capital

As has the media (6 mega corps own all significant media)

Democracy cannot function in such a circumstance it seems to me

The Houses of Congress and the presidency do not reflect the will of the people

 

 

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