Jake

Idle Weekend November 20, 2016: Electing Better

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Agreeing with others, thank you so much for releasing that discussion, as well as to Doug and others for handling that mess. :barf:

As part of my 'healing,' I've been revisiting media that feels relevant to our current situation, in order to help consolidate my thoughts on the factors leading up to it, where it's heading, and to what extent it was anticipated.  Tomorrow, I plan to rewatch Er Ist Wieder Da, which is based on a 2014 novel about if Hitler came back to the present and became a media sensation due to his irresistible outrageousness, his offering of 'simple brilliant truths' to the populace (particularly those who've felt ignored), and his ability to publicly admit that things aren't great for everyone. Based on my memory and rewatching clips, it's one of the most prescient pieces of media released in the past few years.

For those potentially interested, I think this clip does a good job representing it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBqwtHnc9ho

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Yeah, thanks R&D for the great discussion. Also I can't believe multiple people actually took the time to go deep on that shitpost. This community never fails to exceed my expectations.

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Hi Rob and Danielle,

 

I really enjoy your podcast.  Thanks for putting so much of yourselves, your ideas and your time into it.  Almost without exception, each episode is a nice comfortable chair to fall back into and feel right at home. 

I really wanted to comment on this most recent episode, however, because of what happened with the Life Is Strange letter.

 

I can see, now that I'm here, that you've included a spoiler warning for the Life Is Strange content in the episode description, but regrettably I didn't access the episode via this page, and missed any such warning on my itunes feed. 

 

The result for me was that I was already deep into listening before my tired, post-work day mind realised that Danielle had just outlined (what I think might be) the big reveal for the game, Life Is Strange. 

 

At first I wasn't sure I'd heard correctly, or maybe I'd missed the spoiler warning, so I went back to the beginning of the letters segment and listened again.  There's a moment when Rob says "don't read the first line" and Danielle responds "don't worry", and I can only assume that the first line Rob warned about contained a spoiler for the game, but then Danielle goes on to reveal a good deal about the core plot of Life Is Strange over the course of the letter.

 

I'm not completely sure what happened, and I haven't been through the episode with a fine-toothed comb (nor will I), but I can only assume that, somehow, there was no spoiler warning in the audio itself, none in the itunes description, and that a major (THE major?) plot point of a game I've been saving for a rainy day has been pretty horribly spoiled.

 

Granted, Life Is Strange is not a recent game, and there's been adequate time since release to have played it, but still...  Bless him, Rob tries to make a lighthearted reference to the spoilers at the end of the letter, and I appreciate the nod, but Danielle appears to not fully appreciate the giant foot she just pulled out of her mouth.  I know, I know... it's just Life Is Strange, but dude, those spoilers came out of left field, and so suddenly, and rather than stop and reconsider the letter, Danielle just steamrolled on and compounded the first spoiler by adding more stuff. 

 

I guess I'm just a bit disappointed because after listening to Idle Thumbs, Three Moves Ahead and Idle Weekend, all from their respective first episodes, this is the first time I've ever felt let down in regards to spoilers.

 

I guess I'll still play Life Is Strange, the art style looks great, and I do believe that much of the heart of a story is in the telling, but I can't help reflect on what I'm missing out on knowing what's around the corner.

Still love the Idle pods network, it's like a second home.  Thanks and cheers.

 

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It is probably safe to say that the majority of Trump voters are straight white Americans. Yes, in that group there are a lot of racists. xenophobes, sexists, blah...blah. But I wish the people who for various justified reasons hate Trump and can not understand why good people would vote for Trump would put themselves in the shoes of people who ARE NOT racists, homophobes, etc. but still voted for Trump. e.g. If you are worried about putting food on the table, paying for medicine, or that hospital stay,  are you going to be very concerned about gay rights, Black Lives Matter, or Muslims being forced out of the country? You may be aware of these problems but these problems take a very low priority in your life. All you care about are jobs, Jobs. JOBS! With good jobs, decent wages, and with your basic needs taken care of, THEN you`ll have the time and mental well being to be more concerned with (and possibly do the righteous thing about)  the problems that LGBTQ+, Latinos, Blacks, Muslims, etc. are up against.

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I'm willing to offer my perspective as a straight white Trump voter living in the south if anyone wants to ask a specific question on my outlook or why I voted the way I did in a polite an open minded way.

 

I also was NOT that surprised by the outcome, but remained cautiously optimistic during the campaign while largely remaining silent in political conversations with anyone not outwardly supporting Trump.

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14 hours ago, TokyoDan said:

It is probably safe to say that the majority of Trump voters are straight white Americans. Yes, in that group there are a lot of racists. xenophobes, sexists, blah...blah. But I wish the people who for various justified reasons hate Trump and can not understand why good people would vote for Trump would put themselves in the shoes of people who ARE NOT racists, homophobes, etc. but still voted for Trump. e.g. If you are worried about putting food on the table, paying for medicine, or that hospital stay,  are you going to be very concerned about gay rights, Black Lives Matter, or Muslims being forced out of the country? You may be aware of these problems but these problems take a very low priority in your life. All you care about are jobs, Jobs. JOBS! With good jobs, decent wages, and with your basic needs taken care of, THEN you`ll have the time and mental well being to be more concerned with (and possibly do the righteous thing about)  the problems that LGBTQ+, Latinos, Blacks, Muslims, etc. are up against.

 

Not to drag this from the ashes too much, but the argument of "economic anxiety" has repeatedly been debunked by the analysis of voter demographics (and the breakdown thereof).

 

And not to turn this into a hierarchy, but I'd imagine it's hard to keep in perspective someone's job when your life is directly at stake. I'm not saying a degree of empathy isn't a factor here, but people will - as you said - vote for their own interests. Why should people who fear for their lives worry about the job safety of people they don't know? More than that, what if they're worried about the job situation, but tend to prefer worrying about their own livelihoods more? Understandable, no?

 

Hypotheticals abound, sorry. Nevermind that "job safety" is being scapegoated out to the (everpresent) daemon of (illegal) immigrants, instead of looking at the poverty line and longstanding reasons as to why the job market might be suffering.

 

Don't get me started on healthcare in the US. I'm from the UK, myself, but what Obamacare put into action seems from everything I've read (regardless of how much Republican attention forced the bill to change before it was passed) an improvement on what came before. If people truly wanted (and were passionate about) good healthcare, I have a hard time believing that Trump would be the answer to their wishes, there. But that is solely my opinion.

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To me the most baffling thing is to believe a single word that leaves Trump's mouth. How is it possible to feel he will serve anyone's interests except his own? From the students at Trump 'university' to the contractors on his various building projects that he stiffed if they were too small to sue him, there's a trail of people used and abused by him. Why give such a person your vote? Is it really just the utter need for something to change? Is Hillary really that bad? 

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14 hours ago, xchen said:

I'm willing to offer my perspective as a straight white Trump voter living in the south if anyone wants to ask a specific question on my outlook or why I voted the way I did in a polite an open minded way.

 

I also was NOT that surprised by the outcome, but remained cautiously optimistic during the campaign while largely remaining silent in political conversations with anyone not outwardly supporting Trump.

All right, I'll bite.


How do you justify voting for a man who willingly embraces racists to win an election, and then claims ignorance post-election? How do you justify voting for a man whole openly talks about requiring Muslims to register with the government? How do you justify voting for a man who brags about holding the power to nuke people and wants to continue torturing people?

 

And that's not to mention the many other issues with Trump, most of which are rooted in what osmo's post is about. How can anyone trust a man whose words and claims literally change on a day to day basis, to whatever suits him best? The man is a pathological liar! But because Hillary is the establishment, I guess she's more evil than a man who embraces the alt-right movement? I honestly can't even begin to empathize with this, as much as I personally dislike Hillary (and, in fact, "the establishment").

 

I'm fully aware that not everyone who voted for Trump hates Muslims (or any other group), but every single one is complicit to this behavior and this attitude. It's unavoidable. You can't vote for a hateful platform and claim innocence.

 

So, yeah, why would you do something like this?

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2 hours ago, Gorbles said:

Don't get me started on healthcare in the US. I'm from the UK, myself, but what Obamacare put into action seems from everything I've read (regardless of how much Republican attention forced the bill to change before it was passed) an improvement on what came before. If people truly wanted (and were passionate about) good healthcare, I have a hard time believing that Trump would be the answer to their wishes, there. But that is solely my opinion.

 

Every right-leaning person I know who opposes the Affordable Care Act has a story about their wife's cousin's former roommate whose premiums went up five hundred percent after the ACA was passed. For me and the overwhelming majority of people I know, health insurance has become much more affordable, as the law promises, but the fact that edge cases happen, often with the totem of the Republican Party that is the self-employed businessperson of some means, is cause enough for some people to want the whole system gone. Even "moderate" proposals to roll back the ACA, by allowing people to opt out, spell the end because young and healthy people will opt out, old and sick people won't, and insurance companies will accelerate their pullout from less profitable markets even more, as the risk pool dwindles.

 

That last bit is very frustrating to me. I have a reasonably close friend who dreams of seeing the ACA burn to the ground, along with Medicaid and Medicare, because he firmly believes that the supply/demand pressures of the free market will keep insurance premiums low if the government just gets its money out, which is... not how insurance has ever worked. Even now, insurance companies are raising premiums because the government subsidies are going straight to executive salaries and bonuses, which are at an all-time high. Aetna just pulled out of Missouri and Cigna cut its available plans there in half, which would be fine if it weren't the only game in town. I don't see how less regulation and less government money would fix that, but "less regulation" as a means is an end all its own, to many.

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19 hours ago, xchen said:

I'm willing to offer my perspective as a straight white Trump voter living in the south if anyone wants to ask a specific question on my outlook or why I voted the way I did in a polite an open minded way.

 

I also was NOT that surprised by the outcome, but remained cautiously optimistic during the campaign while largely remaining silent in political conversations with anyone not outwardly supporting Trump.

 

I have a few questions, and I'll probably have some follow-ups if you're still interested. And thank you for offering your point of view, whether you answer or not.

 

  • What were your main reasons for voting Trump?
  • What are your thoughts and feelings with regards to Trump's campaign rhetoric?
  • Which of his campaign promises do you think are the most important ones?
  • Do you expect Trump to follow through on his campaign promises? By the follow through I mean a reasonable attempt at getting the thing done.

If you don't want to answer publicly, I'm happy with a PM as well. I am simply curious to hear your view.

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One thing I can't understand is why so many people are against deportation of illegal immigrants (i can understand not doing this when it might separate children from their parents. and I'm not talking about refugees). But what is wrong with sending back people who didn't came to the US illegally? Isn't that unfair to the people who are trying to immigrate to the USA legally? Of course there should be exceptions and guidelines. e.g. If the illegal has been in the US over a certain number of years, never gotten into trouble, can support themselves, can speak English, then give them a visa.

 

I live in Japan and have been here for 45+ years. And the Japanese government have no problem (no does the population in general) with exporting illegal aliens.

 

Also I didn't vote for either one on the candidates.

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@TokyoDan It's not always exactly the deportation issue, but the increased 'be ready to show your papers' powers that authorities would have carrying this out, and how enforcement of this would dis-proportionally affect non-white legal citizens.

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21 hours ago, TokyoDan said:

It is probably safe to say that the majority of Trump voters are straight white Americans. Yes, in that group there are a lot of racists. xenophobes, sexists, blah...blah. But I wish the people who for various justified reasons hate Trump and can not understand why good people would vote for Trump would put themselves in the shoes of people who ARE NOT racists, homophobes, etc. but still voted for Trump. e.g. If you are worried about putting food on the table, paying for medicine, or that hospital stay,  are you going to be very concerned about gay rights, Black Lives Matter, or Muslims being forced out of the country? You may be aware of these problems but these problems take a very low priority in your life. All you care about are jobs, Jobs. JOBS! With good jobs, decent wages, and with your basic needs taken care of, THEN you`ll have the time and mental well being to be more concerned with (and possibly do the righteous thing about)  the problems that LGBTQ+, Latinos, Blacks, Muslims, etc. are up against.

 

On the other hand, millions of other working class voters managed to not vote for the fascist. It's not as if Trump outlined a uniquely sensible or achievable way of dealing with American poverty that overshadowed his myriad flaws.

 

I'm not unsympathetic to the working class -- for sure, wealth and income inequality in the country are beyond fucked. But... I don't see how a voter draws the line between "the economy sucks" -> "let's elect this guy" without being at least tacitly on board with a lot of his bigotry.

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2 hours ago, Nelsormensch said:

Potentially of interest to folks in this thread - NY Times piece talking to people in a low-income, predominantly black neighbourhood in Milwaukee who didn't vote at all in the last election:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/us/many-in-milwaukee-neighborhood-didnt-vote-and-dont-regret-it.html?_r=0

 

In this article I read: “He was real, unlike a lot of liberal Democrats who are just as racist” but keep it hidden, he said, his jaw slathered with shaving cream. “You can reason with them all day long, but they think they know it all. They want to have control. That they know what’s best for ‘those people.’”

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3 hours ago, Bucket_of_Lizards said:

@TokyoDan It's not always exactly the deportation issue, but the increased 'be ready to show your papers' powers that authorities would have carrying this out, and how enforcement of this would dis-proportionally affect non-white legal citizens.

Your point make sense. But what's the solution. Just to let anybody in?

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2 hours ago, TokyoDan said:

Your point make sense. But what's the solution. Just to let anybody in?

 

I think the appropriate response is amnesty for non-criminal immigrants, especially those with jobs and families, while building a better path to citizenship for future immigrants that makes the danger of sneaking into the country (or sneakily staying past a visa's expiration) less attractive of an option. Over two and a half million people have been deported under Obama, not including people who were turned away at the border or who "deported" themselves under pressure from law enforcement, and the three people, out of that two and a half million, whom I knew personally all underwent terrifying and devastating experiences that stretch the bounds of necessity, in my mind. My uncle's son from his first marriage stayed here past his visa because he found a job he loved as a roofer, but he got picked up in a routine traffic stop, spent almost a month in near-solitary confinement, and then was deported and banned from entering the US for ten years. He's not going to get to see his son grow up because of that, and I struggle to understand why, besides him not having the money and connections (and, to be frank, the wit) to get a long-term work visa for his job doing blue-collar labor.

 

There are estimated to be over eleven million immigrants living undocumented in America. That's almost five percent of the population. If all of them were deported, it would destroy countless communities, families, and businesses. Amnesty and a revised process for naturalization are the only answers that work.

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Also: http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/06/georgias-harsh-immigration-law-costs-millions-in-unharvested-crops/240774/ turns out driving out undocumented migrant laborers hurts industries like agriculture. Kicking out undocumented immigrants (who pay taxes and are able to get none of the benefits of doing so) is expensive, time consuming, and what is being gained by it? You get to kick out the 'illegals' who are taking our low paying agriculture jobs that helps keep our food prices down?

We prop America up as this land of opportunity but if you risk everything to pursue it and don't fill out the right paperwork and are probably a PoC you'll get deported, potentially cutting you off from your family here in the States. And again, what is gained?

People who talk about illegal immigration being a problem and needing to build a wall are almost always using coded racial language, and there's a reason the unsecured Canadian border isn't of concern to them.

 

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1 hour ago, jennegatron said:

People who talk about illegal immigration being a problem and needing to build a wall are almost always using coded racial language, and there's a reason the unsecured Canadian border isn't of concern to them.

 

I'm glad you used 'almost always' because many of them however misinformed are just worried about jobs and are not racists. Another reason Trump won was people who might have been undecided were sick of being unjustly called racists and etc. and went with Trump as a way to say F U to the arrogant I'm-smart-and-educated-and-you're-not people who kept putting them down. That is no way to win people over. Liberals got to quit doing that. Especially if they think they got the high moral ground. I consider myself a liberal, but I was not so quick to insult people who might have been thinking about supporting Trump.

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7 minutes ago, TokyoDan said:

I'm glad you used 'almost always' because many of them however misinformed are just worried about jobs and are not racists. Another reason Trump won was people who might have been undecided were sick of being unjustly called racists and etc. and went with Trump as a way to say F U to the arrogant I'm-smart-and-educated-and-you're-not people who kept putting them down. That is no way to win people over. Liberals got to quit doing that. Especially if they think they got the high moral ground. I consider myself a liberal, but I was not so quick to insult people who might have been thinking about supporting Trump.

 

I think the fact that white people are more interested in protecting the feelings of other white people by not calling them racist than looking at their own role and complicit participation in a system that props us up is the real problem. Honestly fuck white people who are offended by being called racist. It's not an inherent personal flaw, and it's something that our white supremacist culture actively instills and encourages in us and that we need to actively combat whenever possible.

 

Trump won because people care about preserving a white majority identity. Trump won because of rampant and persistent gerrymandering by conservative states in this country based on the gutting of civil rights legislation by a court that was stocked by conservative presidents. Trump won because our electoral college was decided as a compromise and concession to slave holding states. Trump won because white people want to hear that it's PoC's fault the world isn't the one promised by their parents. Trump won because he won white men & white women & won people earning middle and upper tiers of wages. Trump won because of voter suppression by conservative state governments that restricted polling places, days, times, and required voter ID to systematically disenfranchise those for whom the barriers became too high to vote. Trump won due to conservative media that spent the last decade telling conservative voters that we don't need qualified people in office, we need someone to treat Washington like a business and career politicians are the problem. Trump won because of race baiting and undeliverable promises. Trump won because working class white people feel entitled to manufacturing jobs that no longer exist in America and have systematically disempowered union bargaining based off of some red scare that they're a socialist conspiracy to steal your dues.

 

I'm tired of being sympathetic to educated upper-middle class white people who are scared of the scary Muslims who are going to build a rec center too close to the site of the world trade towers. These people are my parents and my extended family members.

 

The educated liberal elite is not the fucking problem, and if you're going to make someone a scapegoat for why Trump won, make it fucking Donald Trump.

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I'm still planning to reply to your questions later on this week once I can get to a desktop, so if anyone else wants to chime in with some before then I welcome those as well. 

 

Love unimural's bullet format so feel free to keep those kind of questions coming. Happy Thanksgiving, friends!

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"I think the fact that white people are more interested in protecting the feelings of other white people by not calling them racist than looking at their own role and complicit participation in a system that props us up is the real problem. Honestly fuck white people who are offended by being called racist. It's not an inherent personal flaw, and it's something that our white supremacist culture actively instills and encourages in us and that we need to actively combat whenever possible."

 

@jennegatron  So how should we combat it and how would you like it all to turn out? Should fuckin' white people be tarred & feathered and run out of town on a rail?

 

And what makes you think I am white?

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White people should educate themselves on systematic racism and generations of discrimination and how they benefit from a country that was built on the backs of forced unpaid Black labor and the lives of forceably removed and killed Native peoples.

They should actively do works in life to advocate for people of color in situations where the social capital of being white allows our voices to be heard over the voices of people of color. White people should help educate other white people in their lives in how white privilege manifests itself in every aspect of life.

I have at no point made any assumption about your race, and have exclusively spoken about people in the abstract or saying "our" in order to indicate that I am not unaware of the fact that I am white and therefore a part of the group doing the harming.

I would like that we as white people work to level our economic inequality by instating things like blind hiring and admissions processes thereby removing passive barriers to economic development for people of color. I would like for increased resources be dedicated to first generation college students and for schools to be funded not off property taxes which just means that poor students of color go to schools with no access to the resources white kids get. I want white people to stop blocking bussing that would integrate schools.

Individual white people are the not problem but the systems that reinforce economic & educational divides based on race.

If you're going to keep pretending that I'm advocating for self flaggelation or bullying of white people for being white, I'm not going to engage with you anymore. The fact that you focused on that part rather than the rest of what I said makes me think that you're not actually interested in conversations about dismantling systematic racism.

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@jennegatron All good points and I agree with them. And I hate racism. At a very early age, I couldn't understand it, but it was pushed on me by my father. I grew out of it while comparatively young. And living in Japan as a foreigner I experienced it...but nowhere near the same hate-filled violent racism sometimes found in the USA.

 

And I'm not pretending anything. It's the vibe you give off. 

 

And another thing. You got to tone down your superior patronising attitude. You can't make a point without talking down to people. A bit a self-reflection would do you some good at improving your ability to get people on your side.

 

Therefore I do hope that you won't engage with me anymore. I don't think I can learn anything from you. And It's bad for my high blood pressure. And if you do engage, I won't engage with you. So please..have the last word. I know it's important to you.

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36 minutes ago, TokyoDan said:

 And I hate racism. At a very early age, I couldn't understand it, but it was pushed on me by my father. I grew out of it while comparatively young. And living in Japan as a foreigner I experienced it...but nowhere near the same hate-filled violent racism sometimes found in the USA.

 

 

Here's the problem: you keep keep saying racism and ignoring that I'm talking about systematic racism. I'm not talking about calling someone the n-word. I'm talking about how in the 60's black families were denied home loans because of redlining, denying the accumulated wealth of home ownership to another generation. That's the sort of shit I'm talking about. Racism isn't something one can grow out of, it's the systems that everyone in the US lives within, because our laws and our structures are built with the baked in purpose of denying humanity and resources to people of color. It's nice that you live in Japan. I can't speak to your experience. I can however speak about the country I see, live in, and read about all the time.

 

I can't get over the fact that you're trying to come into a community and try to tone police me for not ingratiating me to you and scold me for not doing enough to win you over. You come into a space that is one of the few welcoming spaces I've found on the internet and ask why we don't want undocumented people deported. When I respond that there are costs and consequences too great for virtually no benefit, and with the factual observation that the rhetoric chosen to speak about deportation and undocumented immigrants is racially charged, you say "but what about the white people who aren't racists? don't they deserve to be pandered to? that's why donald trump won. it's all the liberals' fault." When I go into great detail to explain a fraction of the myriad of real reasons trump won, many of them systematic rather than individually racially based, you imply that all I care about is punishing white people for being white and ask me what I want done. When I talk about the real things I want solved and solutions for them, you ask for praise for not being racist anymore, and then call me patronising.

 

Don't worry about me. I do plenty of self reflection. I think about my whiteness a lot. I'm happy in who I am, and the growth I've made in my life unpacking my racism and internalized misogyny, and that I work every day to be better than I was before. tbh I don't think I really want you on my side TokyoDan.

 

On 11/23/2016 at 2:12 PM, TokyoDan said:

One thing I can't understand is why so many people are against deportation of illegal immigrants (i can understand not doing this when it might separate children from their parents. and I'm not talking about refugees). But what is wrong with sending back people who didn't came to the US illegally? Isn't that unfair to the people who are trying to immigrate to the USA legally? Of course there should be exceptions and guidelines. e.g. If the illegal has been in the US over a certain number of years, never gotten into trouble, can support themselves, can speak English, then give them a visa.

 

I live in Japan and have been here for 45+ years. And the Japanese government have no problem (no does the population in general) with exporting illegal aliens.

 

Also I didn't vote for either one on the candidates.

 

Also please stop using super dehumanizing language like this. Human beings aren't objects to 'export' like a trade good. It's a bad look.

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