Rob Zacny

Episode 347: Dwarf Fortress and World Simulators

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Three Moves Ahead 347:

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Dwarf Fortress and World Simulators

After many requests, the Dwarf Fortress show is finally here. 3MA editor Michael Hermes and Troy "Wait, how does vomit work again" Goodfellow are joined by Gaslamp Games' Nicholas Vining and freelance writer Gita Jackson to talk about everyone's favorite simulation, Dwarf Fortress. Dwarf Fortress has helped move forward an entire genre of games, from direct copies to finely honed world-building experiences. What is the secret sauce that makes Dwarf Fortress so endearing? What's the deal with the interface? Why does everyone keep dying?

Gnomoria, Clockwork Empires, Craft the World, Game of Dwarves, Rimworld, Towns, Spacebase DF-9, Prison, Architect, Banished, Aurora 4X, UnReal World

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Some useful links:

 

Dwarf Fortress

 

The Lazy Newb Pack - This is an easy way to get started with tilesets and terrific tools like Dwarf Therapist. If you are intimidated by ASCII and don't know what to do, use this launcher, turn off Aquifers, pick a random tileset.

 

- updated for the 2015 version and the gold standard for DF tutorials.

 

Gita's latest article on Giant Bomb about Dwarf Fortress.

 

I also like

and his channel is great overall. (Formerly Das24680)

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Haven't listened yet, but I'm amused that Michael is talking. Forum posts not withstanding, I've regarded him as something akin to Ben (if there is a 'Ben') from Dan Carlin's Hardcore History/Common Sense podcasts: a mute figure standing at a bank of audio mixer controls.

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Why did you completely ignore the existence of adventure mode which lets you explore and interact with the world as an RPG of more depth then daggerfall and even visit old fortresses or even retire in a fortress , to a ludicrous amount of depth aswell and the fact that it legitimately is simulating all important people in the world as you play aswell ? (The entire world) 

 

I think thats  a huge important part of it, that and legends mode, which lets you read about everyone and everything in the world that ever existed?

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If you're asking yourself how much of the simulation in Dwarf Fortress is "necessary" you have already failed. It's all necessary. My militia commander not having a little finger due to a fight with a forbidden beast is deeply important, as much as anything else in the game.

 

Though yknow criticising the interface being awful is fine.

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The interface is the biggest barrier for sure, but as Toady (aka Tarn Adams the developer) has explained, it's still premature to focus on the interface when half the features of the game aren't in yet. From his perspective it's an alpha. He does the minimum to make it functional.

However he promises the interface will be redone and polished when the time is right. One could argue that doing it now would be a massive quality of life improvement for his current players and a huge boost in popularity (and support). But remember this is a passion project, and Toady never promised a timeline or tried to sell his game even when people started throwing money at him for it. I think it's a bit unfair to expect polish from a work in progress.

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I will say I find it ironic that a podcast that frequently covers wargames spent half of an episode on DF complaining about the interface.  I personally find games like War in the East far more impenetrable than Dwarf Fortress.

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A couple of good points, but be careful of not becoming too colleaguel, it makes the podcast feel like casual small talk.  

Can you provide the titles of the japanese games?

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I will say I find it ironic that a podcast that frequently covers wargames spent half of an episode on DF complaining about the interface. I personally find games like War in the East far more impenetrable than Dwarf Fortress.

+1

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+1

 

Et tu, Bruce?

 

If anything, I recall us spending most of our time acting as apologists for the interface, pretty much agreeing it is a core part of the DF experience.

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Haven't listened yet, but I'm amused that Michael is talking. Forum posts not withstanding, I've regarded him as something akin to Ben (if there is a 'Ben') from Dan Carlin's Hardcore History/Common Sense podcasts: a mute figure standing at a bank of audio mixer controls.

 

I've been on a few shows, mostly when I can convince Rob that we need to talk about a topic I really enjoy. Final Fantasy Tactics, AI War, Victoria... the sad thing is that a DF show was my white whale and now we've covered it. What's left for me? Chess? Troy has said we'll never do a chess show. 

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Not to deluge you with negative feedback, I do want to say, I enjoyed this episode immensely. Particularly a lot of the points Nicholas and Gita made were good observations and insight into both the technical side and player side. Dwarf Fortress is a huge crazy thing in a lot of ways, and all of you did a good job covering and exploring those different aspects.

 

Speaking of something that came up a few times in the cast, I still find it mysterious that some things in DF feel brilliant, yet those same things implemented in other games fall flat or just don't have the same appeal. There's some magic alchemy going on it seems. Or maybe the simulation is the correct level of detail, so that things like butterfly corpses preventing doors from closing present a verisimilitude that brings the DF world to life, which otherwise would be a game-breaking frustration.

 

I really agree with Gita on the point that a lot of the goofy and frustrating stuff just winds up making the game more charming because there is no win state, it's a pure simulation upon which you can layer your own narrative. And due to the psychological detail, you almost surely will.

 

While it's clear that some simulation games don't go far enough into the micro (e.g. SimCity, Banished), I wonder if it's possible to go too far. DF isn't there yet, but maybe it's in danger of getting bogged down in detail as the development progresses? Both Aurora and UnrealWorld (from what I've seen and played anyway) look like examples of this.How wide is the viable spectrum between ground-up systems-based simulation and top-down "manageable" gameplay?

 

Also, good luck Nicholas! Developing a game like this with actual time and budget constraints must make it many times more difficult, let alone making the game accessible at the same time. I wish you the best!

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I've loved Dwarf Fortress since around 2007, and sometimes it has loved me back. I currently make a living by building fluid dynamics models for flood management and engineering projects. Dwarf Fortress has a frikkin 3 dimensional fluid dynamics model in it! What kind of a game has a 3D fluid dynamics model? It's insane! (note its not a particularly realistic model but its still there).

 

I agree that part of the appeal of Dorf Fortress is its weird internet subculture / invite only club house, and its strangeness. I do often wish for more dev time on the game mechanisms though. I've been waiting a while for improvements to siege AI and the political AI routines. 

 

Good list of games that are like it on some level. Aurora TKO'd me with its interface but I might try it again at some point and Dominions is fantastic. I'd consider putting AI War fleet command on the list. Its a bit more accessible but its a very niche game that doesn't care about graphics and shoots for something very different from most indie strategy games. Edit, also put Phil Eklund games on this list.

 

Also, the panel was great.

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Hey. Regular listener, first time poster. I really like the podcast, even if I'm not that much of a strategy gamer. So please don't take my disappointment with this particular episode too badly

 

I will say I find it ironic that a podcast that frequently covers wargames spent half of an episode on DF complaining about the interface.  I personally find games like War in the East far more impenetrable than Dwarf Fortress.

 

Did we listen to the same podcast? The panel spent have the podcast composing a paean to the interface and how wonderful the sunk cost fallacy it creates is! Seriously, if the game collapses the second it actually tells the player what's going on, it has some very deep problems. This is probably unfair, but I've gotten the impression that DF is similar to some of the other world simulators mentioned in that it is all learning curve and pretty simple to keep everything going once you hit a certain point.

 

In general I guess I would have preferred the podcast to spend more time discussing DF as a game, including how DF does or not avoid the above trap, or any of the things the Clockwork Empires devblogs talk about in their game. Rather than going "It's so complicated and amazing!!!!!! **Wowie**" like every article that has ever discussed DF.

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The name of the japanese game which the panel was trying to remember was, it is really is Touhou - it is a "danmaku" or bullet hell kind of "shoot´em up" genre (games like space invaders) , where you play as witch. It is all done by a guy mostly know as ZUN and feature a rather large lore with lots of character and generated a huge fandom around, which create lots of musics, spin off games, mangas and animation, ect....

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I agree this episode had trouble getting past discussing the game on its and the player community's terms. That itself was interesting, so no worries.

 

More Michael!

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This is probably unfair, but I've gotten the impression that DF is similar to some of the other world simulators mentioned in that it is all learning curve and pretty simple to keep everything going once you hit a certain point.

 

The random "strange/fell" moods that Dwarves go into insert chaos and can disrupt a fortress. Not to mention accidentally "digging too deep".

 

Edit: Also, the random named fell beasts that appear at rare intervals.

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I'm familiar with Boatmurdered, but what was the other DF story that they said was even better? Anybody got a link? 

 

It's called Gemclod. I'm about halfway through it right now and I'm a little mixed, I think? The first two authors are excellent, but then the next two try way too hard to roleplay insane/incompetent overseers and cause a lot of (strangely tedious) chaos in the game that isn't as funny as they think it is. Now I'm on the fifth author and, while enjoyable, his writing lacks some presence (which may be because his avatar in the game was killed in the previous year and he's had difficulty coming up with an in-fiction reason why he's the overseer now).

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Did we listen to the same podcast? The panel spent have the podcast composing a paean to the interface and how wonderful the sunk cost fallacy it creates is! Seriously, if the game collapses the second it actually tells the player what's going on, it has some very deep problems. This is probably unfair, but I've gotten the impression that DF is similar to some of the other world simulators mentioned in that it is all learning curve and pretty simple to keep everything going once you hit a certain point.

 

I disagree that the game doesn't tell the player whats going on.  If anything it over explains things, especially in regards to following along with combat as it can be difficult to even know who's winning between tendons severing and toes being cut off.  I recall that Gita made the claim that you need to have a wiki open to see what stone/ore smelts into what metal.  This information is listed in the status screen under economic stone (acessed with the 'z' key), though I could of sworn it was accessible elsewhere as well.  The wiki is useful for understanding underlying game mechanics, but it doesn't have any useful information that isn't already accessible in the game.

As far as your impression goes about the learning curve, you're half right.  Getting a self sufficient fort going is not difficult, like surviving in minecraft it basically involves digging a hole and staying in there.  Since there is no explicit goal and embark locations can give wildly different experiences, the difficulty is ultimately self directed.  It's a bit like Paradox's grand strategy games in that regard.

 

 

In general I guess I would have preferred the podcast to spend more time discussing DF as a game, including how DF does or not avoid the above trap, or any of the things the Clockwork Empires devblogs talk about in their game. Rather than going "It's so complicated and amazing!!!!!! **Wowie**" like every article that has ever discussed DF.

I think this is actually what miffed me about this episode.  It seems like anytime DF is discussed it is in relation to its difficulty/complexity and its interface, which are to me the least interesting aspects of the game.  I get the same feeling when people talk about difficulty in relation to the Souls franchise, which ironically was also brought up on the podcast.

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Really enjoyed this show! Was up there with some of the best episodes. Could you please do another on the same topic? I'm another one of those people who love the idea of DF, but doesn't really have time to play it myself (I figured out the basics in the interface and made a few workshops etc, but never quite figured out how to do the more complex stuff that unlocks the next level of amazingness). But I love hearing people discuss it. So, more please :)

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Having tried a bunch of these types of games, the only that has really grabbed me was Rimworld. No small part because of the fantastic soundtrack by Alistair Lindsey.

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