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Vader

The Next President

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Not necessarily. I've heard it justified as not wanting to vote establishment, which is valid in its own right if misguided in supporting Trump.

 

I could totally see that, there is obviously a genuine need for a 3rd (and 4th party) but voting in Trump to make a point could be pretty disastrous for the long term.

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It's a good plan if you are well-off and white and have no empathy.

Yeah pretty much.

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Actually, if you look up most definitions of fascism, you've described it perfectly in Trump's actions. Fascism isn't so much about ideology as about methodology: appeals to popular frustrations and fears, with authoritarian control offered as the answer to all of them. The actual content of the appeals doesn't matter because authoritarianism is always the answer to them. That's what makes studying Franco and Mussolini (and to a lesser extent, Hitler) so aggravating, because they're constantly shifting the supposed "heart" of their message to be immediately salient to whatever they personally wanted at a given time. Mussolini even says right out, although I'm going to paraphrase it, that you will never understand fascism if you have to ask what it means, because it's an instinctual force that opposes intellect. That's Trump to a T.

This is true...my memory is a bit foggy about it because it's been at least 13 years since I studied that bit of History in college (and likely 15 years...13 years ago I graduated so it has to be prior to that as I think the course would have been Recent Europe or something I took to fill in hours which is why I sort of accidentally minored in History (which didn't really compliment my CS manor, but I have no regrets and enjoyed those classes as they offered a nice change of pace).

As for Cruz and Trump being similar my Dad had an interesting notion...Trump is a con man by choice, but he's an asshole by his nature and that's just who he is at his core. Ted Cruz CHOOSES to be an asshole and terrible...I think it's more a conscious choice on his part. That makes him worse as a person I think...but they are both terrible and Trump being an asshole doesn't excuse the actions he takes by choice.

I sort of agree with my Dad on this...Donald Trump is a walking id monster to a degree and its hard to tell what is calculated and what is just the ugliness in his heart showing itself. With Cruz I think it's entirely cynically calculated.

If this is a mess I apologize, as I'm typing it on my phone so its probably full of errors and unfortunate auto-corrections.

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Trump says he won't order soldiers to kill families of terrorists and torture anymore.

Trump Reverses His Stance on Torture - The Wall Street Journal

https://apple.news/ArdAmKXyDT-OnXLQhDXYVVQ

As horrible as Trump and Cruz's foreign policy sounds, there is still the underlying problem that no candidate in the campaign is asking questions like:

Why is drone assassination and the associated collateral damage ok?

What is our end game with the drone assassination program?

Why are we still supporting so many dictatorships?

Could we save money by instead of buying bombs, building schools in nations we worry about?

 

All the candidates seem unable to challenge the Cold War thinking that dominates our current foreign policy. No matter who is elected within their first week and drone will kill a civilian and our new president will be a war criminal.

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I know there is the mistake of conflating anecdotal evidence with statistical, but this guardian article  of emails from Trump voters actually surprised me by the amount of outward nihilism:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/mar/03/secret-donald-trump-voters-speak-out

 

The thing that is sort of cracking me up lately, is that in the last nightmare debate Trump said "it was the first time he's heard about his small hands" despite the fact that he has been sending Graydon Carter, now editor of vanity fair, press clippings with his hand and fingers circled for 25 YEARS. That is some bold lying! 

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The gay Arab Muslim student (20, Missouri)

‘My parents are horrified’

 

 

 

 

 

 

i quit

 

when's the first trip to mars again?

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The gay Arab Muslim student (20, Missouri)

‘My parents are horrified’

 

 

 

 

 

 

i quit

 

when's the first trip to mars again?

If you read what the gay Arab Muslim student has to say, it's actually not very surprising that they're voting for Trump - the sorts of concerns they express are pretty pedestrian concerns shared by a lot of the other Trump voters. The assumption that being gay, or Arab, or Muslim, automatically makes someone into a progressive is actually one of the things that has sent this student into the arms of Trump: like they mention, "the Democrats almost arrogantly expect me to hand my vote to them because of who I am, which insults me." Trump, as far as I know, actually hasn't said anything virulently heterosexist, and although he obviously is saying terrible things about Arabs and Muslims, there are lots of different Arabs and lots of different Muslims, and expecting to them to act as some monolithic voice in unity against Trump is almost as ridiculous as treating them all like enemies in the way Trump does. A gay Arab Muslim student has almost as many reasons to hate Democrats as they do to hate Trump: Trump is of course more extreme, but both of the mainstream political parties are both far more heterosexist, far more anti-Arab, and far more Islamophobic than they have any right to be.

I'm not saying that Hillary isn't clearly a much better choice for any reasonable gay Arab Muslim student, but I am saying that it's not ridiculous to me that this student would be subject to the same sorts of biases that the other Trump supporters express, and certainly the idea that it should just be obvious for "these people" (where "these people" is gay people or Arab people or Muslim people or women or black people or whatever) shouldn't support Trump is the kind of reductive thinking that, employed for other reasons to reach other conclusions, makes people think voting for Trump is a good idea.

This is another way of putting the point I made earlier: Trump isn't special and America was not a bastion of tolerance and multiculturalism and love before he started running for president. A gay Arab Muslim student has had literally zero candidates effectively representing their interests when it comes to who to vote for for president throughout the entire history of the United States. The idea that one of them would support Trump should send you to Mars only as much as the idea that one of them would ever have supported anyone else for anything other than pragmatic "the least worst is best" reasons.

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Wow you sure got a lot more out of my post than I ever said.

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I don't disagree.

But I'd think I'd have earned more than enough clout around here for someone to not assume the worst about the things I say.

Guess not enough for Tycho.

It's the accusatory tone that's unnecessary.

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Yeah maybe. Not how it reads to me, but whatveer, I'm over it! Forgetaboutit.

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It's probably less a response to you than it is a response generally to people who disagree with how those of certain identities vote. Like how after Super Tuesday, some Bernie supporters were talking about how black southerners "should have voted" based only their skin color or how many gays are just aghast over log cabin republicans. It's easy to forget that people are more than the sum of their labels.

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I'm not that surprised that someone like Trump would rise the ranks and become popular. I'm surprised this hasn't happened earlier because of how rampant and intertwined white supremacy is in the US. I'm surprised by people being surprised that Trump got this popular. What country have you been living in?

What surprises me tho is how diverse the people who are voting for Trump are. Reveal did a wonderful episode on the voters of Trump.

My father is a Trump voter and supporter and I can definitely see his appeal.

Also, if Trump does become president, oh well. Just one more bullshit to deal with. I love this country-even tho it doesn't love me-too much to move.

Those thinking about Cananda. If I'm not mistaken, the far right is rising there too; it's just under-reported and covered. White supremacists do attack minitoiries there and it is becoming a problem.

Also, fuck the identity votes. I'm an Arab-Mexican and I fucking hate that people automatically assume I'm voting dem because of that.

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It's probably less a response to you than it is a response generally to people who disagree with how those of certain identities vote. Like how after Super Tuesday, some Bernie supporters were talking about how black southerners "should have voted" based only their skin color or how many gays are just aghast over log cabin republicans. It's easy to forget that people are more than the sum of their labels.

 

Yeah, it's true. I'm pretty frustrated seeing all those comments re: Bernie and black voters. That's only going to drive people away. It happens a lot. Not maliciously, but even so. Bleh.

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I'm not that surprised that someone like Trump would rise the ranks and become popular. I'm surprised this hasn't happened earlier because of how rampant and intertwined white supremacy is in the US. I'm surprised by people being surprised that Trump got this popular. What country have you been living in?

I mean, I knew America was racist, but up until relatively recently I thought we had the good grace to be ashamed of it.

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Nah. I've seen and felt it ever since I moved up here.

To feel ashamed you have to know why you're feeling it--for the most part. The problem I think is ignorance and actually thinking we've moved from it is the problem; especially, when it comes from white liberals who think they're never racist because they're liberal or because they think they've never had a racist thought--in the sense that most people think as racist-- or a mixture of both formers.

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From my experience I've felt both and having studied white supremacy; hell, even fallen into its trappings--long story. I think I've just become numb or just used to that type of racism. Maybe that's why I'm not that surprised. In my studies and experiences, you realize how overt and subtle white supremacy is in the US.

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Those thinking about Cananda. If I'm not mistaken, the far right is rising there too; it's just under-reported and covered. White supremacists do attack minitoiries there and it is becoming a problem.

 

Not to say that either of those things are not happening, but the extent of them compared to the US, well I only have a subjective sense of it, but as a dual citizen (so moving is actually a legit option for me as opposed to a lot of people who talk about it), and a member of a visible minority, I'm glad I'm in Canada rather than the US.

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