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I think their self-indulgence is less of a problem than their arrogance.

 

See: anytime anyone tries to criticize The Adventure Zone, and Griffin reacts negatively. Or Justin tweets about what a genius storyteller Griffin is.

 

I love 'em and enjoy everything they put out (to varying degrees) and I find them incredibly inspiring (although I know I'll never be like them), but I do think pabosher's onto something.

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I don't know how you can go from Justin, Travis and Griffin McElroy to THE INTERNET'S OWN MCELROYS without it affecting you in some way.  Most stand-up comedians have an arc in their career where their peak is before they have a fanbase and then after they're a big name their jokes slowly get less and less refined because everywhere they go they get laughs and applause anyway, so it's hard to chisel down into the perfect joke the way they used to have to. Late period George Carlin mostly alternates between him preaching to the choir and basking in applause (basically no laughs, just applause).

 

Podcasting isn't the same thing (you aren't dealing with direct audience feedback the same way) but it wouldn't surprise me if a similar arc happened. I feel like early MBMBAM the tone was along the lines of "Why would anyone listen to this?" and now that's a disingenuous question, so the instinct to reign in the weird indulgences is probably a lot weaker.

 

But I also basically consume zero McElroy #content outside of Car Boys, so what do I know.

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I don't follow all of their stuff, but I would probably argue that most content creationtm  is self-indulgent and it's usually made better for it because you generally want people creating content their passionate about (see Idle Thumbs and Important If True). 

 

I can totally see arrogance being a driving force behind something @Patrick R describes, because I'm sure you get to a certain point and think "why should I work on this joke/this delivery when I know I'll hit it out of the park and people will love it?"

 

I'm all about creators getting buck wild about things they are into because at the end of the day it's up to the audience to decide if it's for them or not.

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I do think that, whether or not there's arrogance in the mix, there's a general sense with entertainers that, once you've "made it," you've got this thing figured out and you don't need to lean into it because it's working out fine. There's no drive to excel more than they personally want to excel, which means that there's a lot of variable quality.

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I've often thought about this in the context of authors - there's a saying that most people have a book in them, but almost no one has two. An author's debut work being fantastically well realised because they basically spent years to decades writing it in their head before it was ever close to being published, but then having following works be much less novel (pardon the pun) and interesting because they had to scramble to come up with something new within a year or two is a well recognised syndrome.

 

I recognise that podcasting, especially when it's as improvised as with the McElroys, is a pretty different endeavour to writing a book, but I think the principle of a critical mass of creativity birthing an initial work and then struggling to maintain that energy long-term may still apply. I suspect it's especially difficult when you're putting something out every week with no off time, like for example a TV show would have, and now they're actually all putting out multiple podcasts/other projects a week + most of them having day jobs.

 

That said, while I definitely don't adore MBMBAM as much as I did initially, I still find it amusing enough most of the time. And while I'm not 100% sure everything Griffin has set up with the Adventure Zone will really pay off, as someone who has been a GM for roleplaying games before I can say he's definitely put some effort in and at least tried some interesting stuff, and I really can't fault him for that. Those are the only McElroy shows I actually engage with, with the exception of Sawbones which is a pretty different animal, so if there's been a downturn in their other stuff I won't have noticed it.

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I used to listen to MBMBAM pretty regularly and these days I only occasionally do, but think that's less to do with a decline in quality as it is me just having less time to listen to podcasts. Personally, I thought the Seeso show was great, and most of it's problems seemed to be the result of them never having made a TV show before, which is sort of the opposite problem of them becoming too comfortable in their popularity.

 

Another thing is that I really do think The Adventure Zone has continued to get better over time, both as Griffin started taking the story increasingly more seriously and as Justin Travis and Clint have put more thought into their characters. TBH that's why it's never bothered me that Griffin tends to be kinda railroad-y, as all four of them are so clearly on board with taking it that direction. It's not always perfect, the ~3 episodes in the Wonderland loop were pretty awful and the current flashback arc isn't really working for bunch of minor reasons, but those feel like isolated problems rather than recurring ones.

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I gave up on MBMBAM earlier this year after listening since literally day 1 and couldn't be happier. As for their arrogance and weird defensiveness, I will relate this story:

 

When the Times Online dropped The Bugle and the fate of that podcast was in question (around 2013), there was some talk that Maximum Fun may pick it up. I threw a tweet into the void along the lines of "Happy to hear that MaxFun may pick up The Bugle, but I hope that if they do it doesn't get overloaded with ads the way that MBMBAM has since their acquisition." There were no #s, no @s, no nothing that would allow it to be found unless you were actively looking for plaintext mention of something. Justin McElroy was responding to me like he wanted to fight me within about 30 minutes of me posting that tweet. Like, what the hell, dude?

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to be fair most people who host podcasts search for the name of their podcasts, and have a tab in tweetdeck dedicated to it. I've tweeted without @-ing idle thumbs and had Jake among others tweet back at me.

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Did Roman Mars tweet back at you when you voiced similar concerns after it was finally announced that The Bugle would be part of Radiotopia?

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I'm fairly new to their podcast and tv show ( watched a bunch of monster factory and other polygon related things previously ) and I dont get any sort of arrogant vibe off them at all. 

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On 5/13/2017 at 7:46 AM, gavku said:

I'm fairly new to their podcast and tv show ( watched a bunch of monster factory and other polygon related things previously ) and I dont get any sort of arrogant vibe off them at all. 

 

That's good! Maybe it is just a factor of having listened to them for so long that we're all jaded :)

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21 minutes ago, jennegatron said:

I also don't get an arrogant vibe from them.

 

No I know you don't :P I don't know what it is; probably it is just personal overexposure for me!

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Nah they can definitely be arrogant. You're not jaded or overexposed. It's not an all-the-time thing. It's most evident with Griffin's unwillingness to accept criticism re: his DM'ing. And, of course, the now infamous Justin tweet. What a disaster!

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The Besties is back on a monthly schedule and it's the only video game podcast I listen to anymore

 

 

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I don't know that I'd call it arrogance, but it's for sure an example of a pretty common trend amoung people who hit it fairly big online making 'goofy' or 'dumb' comedy as a personality, which is a tendency towards self-indulgence at times, especially in people who view their own work as silly or dumb, and especially in younger people. This is probably the most common reason I stop consuming various online media, self-flanderization and indulgence. 
I don't exactly know how popular MBMBAM or TAZ are, but I think in the millions, and that's a lot of people to be paying attention to you to not have problems like this.

I feel like Griffin (who is my favorite nonetheless) has more problems with this because Justin and Travis either had or have had much more serious careers and their outside work is more grounded, where as far as I know Griffin is 24/7 goofs, and also (at least from my perspective) incredibly more popular than them. I feel like that's why he had such problems with criticism of TAZ, that one of his goofs turning into something more serious and important to him and that's new ground for him.

I feel weird saying this because I think I'm assuming a lot about their careers and shit, but I've noticed it to, and I've seen it in other people. I do think that they are handling it very well, and that it's not a big deal or anything, and that the quality hasn't dropped, but yeah. 

 

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It's definitely arrogance when someone refuses to take criticism at face value and instead reacts negatively to everything as if they can make no mistake.

 

It's definitely arrogance when someone tweets about their brother being a genius storyteller who, again, can make no mistakes. True, you can call this fraternal pride, but pride can only go so far before it turns.

 

I have no issue whatsoever with the self-indulgence (besides the fact that it can result in repetitive jokes (especially with Griffin...)), but arrogance is a real problem.

 

And the reason it's so surprising to me is because they openly admit to making mistakes early on, the most (in?)famous being when they trash-talked furries and later apologized for that. They've admitted fucking up regarding inclusivity across the spectrum, but always try to be better. That's great!

 

But when it comes to criticism about the quality of the things they create, they can be very defensive and unwilling to listen to criticism.

 

It no doubt also has a lot to do with the fact that they have so many fans willing to defend them to the end, no matter what, because the McElBoys are perfect and can make no mistakes gosh aren't they just the best everything they touch turns to diamond. I'm sure that can go to a person's head.

 

I say "they" a lot, but really I mostly mean Griffin... THIRTY UNDER THIRTY LUMINARY GRIFFIN MCELROY. It's a joke, and it's funny, but sometimes it feels like it's not a joke.

 

I need to repeat that I love the vast majority of what the brothers put out. Most of what I consume from them stars Griffin as the main brother, too. But they can be better.

 

Travis is the best.

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25 minutes ago, Twig said:

Travis is the best.

 

To piggyback off of that fundamental truth, Travis' new podcast The Kind Rewind is four episodes in and it's really good. It's just Travis and his wife Teresa watching old TV shows and movies, then talking about what they liked and didn't like, especially compared to what they thought as kids. They just finished going through the first season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and now they're going to do ET: The Extraterrestrial and then the first season of Cheers. It's really warm and genuine, and Travis' passion for talking about media shines through even as he says some pretty dopey things and defends Xander waaaay more than Xander deserves to be defended. I'm rewatching Buffy right now and that made the past few episodes really enjoyable, but I like the vibe enough to follow them into stuff that I'm not rewatching and don't really care about.

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1 hour ago, Twig said:

It's definitely arrogance when someone refuses to take criticism at face value and instead reacts negatively to everything as if they can make no mistake.

 

It's definitely arrogance when someone tweets about their brother being a genius storyteller who, again, can make no mistakes. True, you can call this fraternal pride, but pride can only go so far before it turns.

 

I have no issue whatsoever with the self-indulgence (besides the fact that it can result in repetitive jokes (especially with Griffin...)), but arrogance is a real problem.

 

And the reason it's so surprising to me is because they openly admit to making mistakes early on, the most (in?)famous being when they trash-talked furries and later apologized for that. They've admitted fucking up regarding inclusivity across the spectrum, but always try to be better. That's great!

 

But when it comes to criticism about the quality of the things they create, they can be very defensive and unwilling to listen to criticism.

 

It no doubt also has a lot to do with the fact that they have so many fans willing to defend them to the end, no matter what, because the McElBoys are perfect and can make no mistakes gosh aren't they just the best everything they touch turns to diamond. I'm sure that can go to a person's head.

 

I say "they" a lot, but really I mostly mean Griffin... THIRTY UNDER THIRTY LUMINARY GRIFFIN MCELROY. It's a joke, and it's funny, but sometimes it feels like it's not a joke.

 

I need to repeat that I love the vast majority of what the brothers put out. Most of what I consume from them stars Griffin as the main brother, too. But they can be better.

 

Travis is the best.

 

Yeah, I don't know to me it sounds like the arrogance is on the other foot here, I think it's kind of arrogant of the fan base to think their individual critiques or criticisms should be addressed by the boys. I'm sure they get criticism directed at them literally all the time via Twitter, I don't blame them for getting defensive at times. 

 

I feel like there is a weird assumption that everyone creating content for the internet should be wholly receptive of criticism/feedback all the time. I don't think it's arrogant if Katy Perry doesn't respond to my last 100 tweets critiquing her latest single, why would I assume MBMBaM would be any different? The fact is they probably aren't super well equipped to handle their own popularity. I think part of the reason they are so popular is that they all wear their hearts on their sleeve which probably makes the popularity and criticism via social media pretty hard to deal with. 

 

I don't think your criticisms are wholly off-base, they obviously come from someone who enjoys their content for the most part, but I'm not sure it's on them to try to please the world. I don't think TAZ is my thing anymore, but I wouldn't say it's arrogant for Griffin to continue what he is doing since there are obviously a ton of people that enjoy it. I don't think it's arrogant of Justin to tell the world how proud he is of his little brothers hard work, whether or not I agree with it.

 

 

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44 minutes ago, YoThatLimp said:

Yeah, I don't know to me it sounds like the arrogance is on the other foot here, I think it's kind of arrogant of the fan base to think their individual critiques or criticisms should be addressed by the boys. I'm sure they get criticism directed at them literally all the time via Twitter, I don't blame them for getting defensive at times. 

 

I feel like there is a weird assumption that everyone creating content for the internet should be wholly receptive of criticism/feedback all the time. I don't think it's arrogant if Katy Perry doesn't respond to my last 100 tweets critiquing her latest single, why would I assume MBMBaM would be any different? The fact is they probably aren't super well equipped to handle their own popularity. I think part of the reason they are so popular is that they all wear their hearts on their sleeve which probably makes the popularity and criticism via social media pretty hard to deal with. 

 

I don't think your criticisms are wholly off-base, they obviously come from someone who enjoys their content for the most part, but I'm not sure it's on them to try to please the world. I don't think TAZ is my thing anymore, but I wouldn't say it's arrogant for Griffin to continue what he is doing since there are obviously a ton of people that enjoy it. I don't think it's arrogant of Justin to tell the world how proud he is of his little brothers hard work, whether or not I agree with it.

 

I don't know about you not knowing, but over and over the McElroys (Griffin in particular) have asked people to be patient as they worked things out, especially with regards to The Adventure Zone. Under those circumstances, reacting with dismissiveness or hostility to more knowledgeable people giving them advice, even over Twitter, does seem like the textbook definition of arrogance. "We're not sure what works, but we're fine with messing up until we figure it out and we don't want anyone's help" was the refrain of TAZ during the entire time that I was listening to it. When they let Jonah Ray speak for several minutes on My Brother, My Brother, and Me about how great he thinks their Seeso series is, but can't be bothered to give the time of day to anyone non-famous who tries to address their admitted ignorance on certain matters, I don't think I'm being an outrageously entitled fan for shooting them some side-eye.

 

This seems to be the problem with a lot of podcasts that suddenly make it big: I like My Favorite Murder a lot, but I hate it when I hear Karen bullshit on some topic about which she has no clue, knowing that she'll jokingly-but-not-jokingly flame people on Twitter for correcting her in the next episode, or when Georgia audibly gets near tears when the audience at a live show corrects her pronunciation of some random township. Like, it's an important life skill to handle being wrong with grace. I know that I've had to work on it hard. I don't think famous or successful people should get a free pass when I don't give myself one.

 

Also, the full text of Justin's half-drunken brag was:

 

Quote

Saw Time had a "50 Best Podcasts" list out today. Some choice picks, BUT: If a list like that doesn't include TAZ, it's wrong.

Quote

I don't mean for the part I do, but my brother is a genius storyteller and TAZ is the best podcast ever made, end of discussion.

Quote

Also, I've had a couple drinks. So be it.

 

Again, that seems to go way beyond brotherly pride to the textbook definition of arrogance, for me. Oh, Time Magazine hadn't heard of (or doesn't care about) your D&D podcast, so its opinion is bunk? I love Justin, but I'd feel embarrassed saying shit like that, even were I trashed.

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I mean obviously were just gonna disagree, and that's fine. It's just like you said, I wouldn't be this frustrated if I didn't live them so much. But I can't change them, so I have to tolerate it until they learn. Hopefully they do. At this point I've said my piece (again, heh) and don't feel like seeing in circles. Gorm said everything I would have said in response, so thanks bud!!

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I wish they hadn't gotten so popular because I will never see them live. The Austin show sold out within 20 minutes. I missed their show at the end of 2011 because I was two months behind on the podcasts. I doubt their venue was full back then.

 

On 5/16/2017 at 10:45 AM, Gormongous said:

 

To piggyback off of that fundamental truth, Travis' new podcast The Kind Rewind is four episodes in and it's really good. It's just Travis and his wife Teresa watching old TV shows and movies, then talking about what they liked and didn't like, especially compared to what they thought as kids. They just finished going through the first season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and now they're going to do ET: The Extraterrestrial and then the first season of Cheers. It's really warm and genuine, and Travis' passion for talking about media shines through even as he says some pretty dopey things and defends Xander waaaay more than Xander deserves to be defended. I'm rewatching Buffy right now and that made the past few episodes really enjoyable, but I like the vibe enough to follow them into stuff that I'm not rewatching and don't really care about.

That's funny that there's some people that like Travis the most. I didn't have much of an opinion on him until trying out his other podcasts Bunker Buddies and Interrobang. Besides that Andi was the worst most obnoxious not funny person I've heard in podcasts for a while, Travis spent a ton of his time on both shows explaining his preferences and likes and dislikes. It just seemed like a weird narcissistic need to put who he was out there without ever truly having an engaging subject more than himself. He just became so boring to me. I gave Shmanners a try and while I liked hearing Teresa discuss all the minutia of the manners subjects, I had to quit still because Travis was doing the same thing and spending a ton of the episodes just talking about his preferences in life.

 

I see a lot of criticism here over TAZ, but I have no fucking clue what is happening in those episodes and often find myself zoning out and never remembering story points. I also have never played Dungeons and Dragons and don't really know what the nitty gritty involves. Griffin's stories are too straightforward and it just sounds like the typical fantasy gobbledygook (which I know some people are a big fan of though, my wife included!) where I can't parse much original that is happening in the story that can't just be cured with more magic and make believe to get to the next bit. So I only find myself engaged when something funny happens which generally comes from Papa McElroy and Justin. I also tried an episode of the bachelor podcast, but reality TV has always been disgusting to me and I have no clue what they are discussing. Also I contribute the shitty Trump fucking guy's rise to presidency as a product of the United State's decade long fixation with reality television.

 

My main love of Griffin stuff just comes with his jokes on MBMBAM and pairing with Nick at Polygon. The two work so great together. Whenever it's a solo Griffin video series there it's very boring. I don't know why I wasted my time with half of his Nuzlocke run.

 

I guess Justin isn't always that funny to me, but I've probably followed almost all of his content and listened to maybe all of the podcasts he has been on to date. The first 60 or so episodes of the Joystiq podcast he is awful. He calls everything stupid and eats food and takes shits while they are recording and he releases these unedited messes. But then something happens after that and he's the reason you want to hear the show and all of his bad behavior is gone. But then I had to stop for a while with 80 episodes of Joystiq to go because Chris Grant is grating and is such an arrogant piece of shit. He literally spends 15 minutes almost every show yelling about how every game company, console developer, and Nintendo doesn't know business the way he does and they all fail because they don't copy Valve. The later episodes where he is gone and it's just Griffin, Ludwig, and Justin are gold though.

 

Then the Satellite Dish pre-Sawbones with Sydnee and Justin is great (Which evolved from the season finale of Two and a Half Men podcast). When they get to this three part finale of the series where they go over Tyra Banks' novel it was just comedy gold. I feel glad that stupid book exists just so they eventually can make an hour and a half of good radio.

 

I also for some reason listen to Still Buffering first thing every week even though I barely have interest in what teens do today and the show isn't really funny at all. I just really like how the dialogue between the three sisters goes and Sydnee's explanation of how things worked early/pre internet. I kind of miss those days honestly.

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The final episode of Car Boys was pretty amazing:

 

 

The latest episode of The Adventure Zone not so much, unfortunately. :( Well, Travis' speech was pretty good.

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I was really feelin' the slog of the blob, but this final episode fuckin' paid off for me in spades. Pretty happy with Car Boys overall. IDLE THUMBS UP.

 

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I liked this week's adventure zone, although it still feels 1) like they're penned in having to make one broad choice per year and 2) because of that it just goes the way it's gonna go. I wouldn't be surprised if the success/mixed success/failure isn't necessarily to people's liking because Griffin is moving on to plot points faster than many DMs would.

 

There IS one question I wish Merle had asked that he didn't.

 

Why do you kill me every time?

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