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3 hours ago, SuperBiasedMan said:

 

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I think it's understandable to leave him given that she was scared, in over her head and might have doomed the whole world if she died/was trapped since no one else knew about the relics and the hunger.

 

 

Separately, now that it's the Max Fun pledge drive I have a question. What kind of commitment do you make when becoming a member? I couldn't see anywhere on the site if there was any kind of minimum/set period involved.

 

re: your comments - very fair. I like that reading a lot

 

As far as the max fun drive goes - you can cancel your subscription at any time. Max Fun will create a recurring payment to pull from your card each month. In your contribution email you'll have a link that gives you a way to manage your account, and you can cancel from there. They don't accept payments of less than $5 as the fees for processing credit cards make it basically worthless to do less than $5 charges.

I assume if you cancel before physical rewards are mailed out, you wouldn't get them, but canceling after you get the password for the bonus content will still give you access to the archive for the year.

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The The Adventure Zone Zone 2 (3? I forget how many there are)

 

Spoiler

I'm so glad Griffin is using "Your/The Stolen Century" because fuck, that's a title and a half

 

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I appreciate a true play podcast is a hell of a thing, but the actor and roleplayer in me still rankles when Griffin gets so defensive about people (rightfully imo) calling out his sometimes heavyhanded method of steering the plot.

 

The lunar interludes when he does a lot of the driving doesn't bother me at all. Exposition and character management are things you gotta do. They all do it to some degree. Like "we do that!" is a silly catchphrase but that's not the way I'd do things.

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It can feel a bit at times like Griffin is just writing fan fiction of his own D&D campaign for all the stuff he actually let's the players do. I think it's due to how they all ultimately know it's for the audience. But honestly it's getting a bit dull as of late.

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I haven't listened to The The Adventure Zone Zone yet but the thing that's especially disappointing to me is that the 11th Hour opened up a lot by having it be a town where Griffin let the boys loose on it. Functionally it wasn't that different but it allowed an atmosphere where it didn't feel as though the boys were being shepherded down a corridor. Then wonderland was 100% the exact opposite, and it didn't work at all for me.

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The Adventure Zone, a comedy podcast: pretty good.

The Adventure Zone, a lore-laden festival of dramatic earnestness: kind of a drag.

 

I mean, I'm being an arse about it, but that's kind of how I feel. Obviously a lot of people get a whole lot of joy from the direction TAZ has taken, which is great, but I really struggle to care about any of the stuff that's been going on lately. Even if I were more on board for something serious, I think I'd want a smaller story. All this end-of-the-world parallel universe Chosen Ones stuff is really unappealing to me, particularly when the characters started out as and to some extent still are lovable goofuses. The McElroys are proven comedians, but I'm not necessarily convinced of their chops as storytellers.

 

At this point I'm much more enthused about the Flop House guest episodes, though perhaps if they were produced regularly they'd go down the same kind of road. I don't know.

 

I don't mean to step on anyone else's enjoyment of the show. It's great that they've struck such a nerve with their fans. But I kind of miss the early days. Maybe it's just not for me any more.

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10 hours ago, Badfinger said:

I appreciate a true play podcast is a hell of a thing, but the actor and roleplayer in me still rankles when Griffin gets so defensive about people (rightfully imo) calling out his sometimes heavyhanded method of steering the plot.

 

The lunar interludes when he does a lot of the driving doesn't bother me at all. Exposition and character management are things you gotta do. They all do it to some degree. Like "we do that!" is a silly catchphrase but that's not the way I'd do things.

 

I think they've touched on that before and it's because of how they want the show to fit in the (relatively) short format and still be fairly punchy. 

 

It should be interesting to see if they keep going down the rail-road-y path or open things up when they start a new campaign with a new DM.

 

I think I share your sentiment @James , I bounce off a lot of the lore heavy aspects. I understand people LOVE that part of the show though, I have met several people who have fallen in love with TAZ outside of the McElroy bubble which is odd. 

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I've been kind of holding it in because it's whatever, but this is gonna bring it out of me

 

 

 

I think it's meant to be partly tongue-in-cheek, but also he later says "I'm drunk right now" which makes me think it's also meant to be in earnest. "Genius storyteller"?

 

God everything in the latest episode was so... M. Night Shyamalan What a Twist! Bullshit.

 

I love the moment to moment stuff and the goofs, but the cap to this whole story is... not good.

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I like the pulpy storytelling, I'm actually in this show in spite of it being a McElboy thing because I'm not normally big on their humour. There's fun, silly twists that are entertaining and since I know multiple people who listen (including my girlfriend) it means that we can be surprised by it together. It's similar to playing the Zero Escape games, where there's a lot of narrative threads and lore wrapped up in itself, but it's fun to hear it untangled even if I don't think it makes a lot of sense or means anything.

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I wish that this arc would end already, and that the next one would be – or at the very least start off – much more grounded. The suffering game was super boring and (for me at least) kinda gross, and unlike what Griffin said, I did not find the conclusion of that part of the quest "worth it" at all. I also find it very hard to care about anything that has been going on in the last couple of episodes.

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It's just so... "I AM GRIFFIN I AM THE DM NOTHING YOU GUYS HAVE DONE REALLY MATTERS BEYOND BEING TOOLS FOR TELLING MY STORY"

 

and i get that that's fine for the vast majority of people listening

 

but goddamn yes make it end

 

plz travis save us

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I think much shorter arcs would be more fun. Like if there wasn't one long running story over everything, and the individual arcs happening were entirely standalone (though setting/characters could carry over).

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I think the show is an amazing exercise in collaborative story telling and I think Griffin is telling an amazing story and I'm excited to see how it ends.

I think TTAZZ is making me appreciate each of the characters even more as they get into motivation and inner dialogues.

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Remember that time Magnus (I think it was Magnus) went on that date with that grim reaper guy?

 

And then Griffin hasn't done shit with him since?

 

Yet he brought back Barry Bluejeans because WHY.

 

Meanwhile Lem from Friends at the Table found himself enamored with an NPC, and Austin found a way to bring that NPC back again and again because Lem wanted it, and it became an awesome collaborative thing between GM and Player.

 

And Griffin just wants Davenport to be important??

 

It's actually bullying to keep comparing Griffin to Austin, but I can't help it. The contrast is significant.

 

FUCK.

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It was

Taako,

and at the end of the Suffering Game 

Griffin did gesture back to it, by having Taako see Kravitz drowning in whatever the big black disc thing is through the portal that nearly pulled Magnus away when he was in lich form.

 

I think Griffin does make these gestures, I just wish he did it more often and they weren't just minor detours before returning to the main path.

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oh okay so he called back to it by killing a dude

 

MEH

 

All this is me complaining about some guy running his first campaign.

 

It's fine, nobody's going to nail it on the first campaign.

 

But what bothers me most of all about this is not that he ain't perfect. I still really enjoyed the vast vast majority of the 'cast. What bothers me is that he seems unwilling to listen to criticism. And the gazillions of McElroy fans are drowning out the legitimate criticisms with "I LOVE THIS AND WILL NOT ACCEPT HATERS"!

 

I want him to be better. I want them all to be better. At this rate, I'm not confident that will happen.

 

Unless Travis' campaign circles back to influence Griffin.

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In TTAZZ he literally talks about how Kravitz will be back in this arc and as SBM mentioned would have been back sooner were it not for his players making their own decisions.

 

He also talks about how he's been trying to incorporate more stuff from here there be gerblins into the overall show, because they did that arc before he had an idea of the story he wanted to explore. I don't think there's anything wrong with bringing back Barry.

 

honestly, i find friends at the table boring and impenetrable. i'm glad other people like it, but it's doing a different thing, I think than Adventure Zone 

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Okay it's cool that Kravitz will be back. Though, it remains to be seen if it's done well. It probably will be if he's making an actual point of it, but... lol barry, lol davenport, so.

 

But that's just one stumbling block on a list a mile long.

 

And yes there's nothing wrong, inherently, with bringing back Barry, on its own. But it's yet another example of how Griffin puts more importance and seriousness into his NPCs than he does the actual players. How many times has he said "no, you can't do that" to a clever solution to a puzzle? QUITE OFTEN. How many times has he had someone come in to save the day out of nowhere? QUITE OFTEN. How many times has he neglected cues from his players in order to focus further on his own plans for the greater story arc? QUITE OFTEN.***

 

It's fine to do these things every now and then. But it's happens a lot. Way too much.

 

And obviously, I know he can't just let the players die, it's a podcast, that would suck. But there's a way to add tension for the players that isn't "watch all these NPCs do everything while you are immortal".

 

Yes, I'm exaggerating at times here.

 

Again, these are issues caused by it being his first ever game. That's fine. At least let him learn from his mistakes instead of letting him think he's the greatest.

 

***Best/worst example of this? When he completely overshadowed the characters' own written backstories with Griffin's Super Special Stuff.

 

------

 

Anyway, I've said my piece. I wouldn't care this much if I didn't like it. YOU KNOWWWWWWW.

 

Peace.

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I dono as long as I am entertained I am happy, putting any RPG storyline under a microscope seems like a road to madness.  I do not envy someone trying to handle DMing their first game, while trying to rein in his players, and trying to entertain their giant following. 

 

26 minutes ago, jennegatron said:

 

honestly, i find friends at the table boring and impenetrable.  

 

I can definitely see that, I've bounced off it a few times myself!

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22 minutes ago, YoThatLimp said:

I dono as long as I am entertained I am happy, putting any RPG storyline under a microscope seems like a road to madness.  I do not envy someone trying to handle DMing their first game, while trying to rein in his players, and trying to entertain their giant following. 


Trying to take feedback in stride instead of defensively maintaining that their way is the only way it could possibly work is probably a good first step, but I don't have a podcast, so I can't say for sure.

 

In all seriousness, I don't think anyone's criticizing the story as a story, although I might have a few things to say about Griffin's love of hiding information from his players and springing twist after twist. I think it's more that we're trying to keep perspective on Griffin's achievements as a DM and storyteller. The way that he has trained his players, especially Travis, to try to read his mind rather than to come up with their own solutions (which would probably involve Railsplitter or the Glutton's Fork) really bums me out, as do the people who seem to think that Griffin's railroad-heavy, lore-obsessed way of running a game is the way to run D&D. For all of the cool things in the podcast, Griffin still has a lot of growing to do as a DM and calling him a "genius storyteller" is not going to help him do that.

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I genuinely like the story, I'm invested in the characters. I think Barry Bluejeans is a nice punchline on a joke. I still feel pretty critical about the way their roleplaying is evolved. They talk pretty candidly about not "breaking" Griffin's story, and I think the characters are way more important than a "story", which is where my sandpaper rubs up against theirs. It's nice to nod to Kravitz being penciled into a storyline, but if stuff changes and you think it's important, change the story and put 'im in there.

 

The fact that for the next arc they're thinking seriously about getting away from a d20 system is an excellent idea. Something Dungeon World-y where people can say yes more often is definitely their style. I liked both Travis' idea and Clint's idea. I thought Justin's idea was hilarious but he's obviously steadfastly against thinking seriously or putting real time into this thing ever. I did not like Griffin's ideas, unfortunately.

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My interest in TaZ and FatT are largely informed by my own DM-ing. My major beef with TaZ is that Griffin's style reminds me of my own (largely seat of the pants, with a lot of plot points and scenes I want to see and difficulty accommodating things going unexpectedly or creating opportunities for the players to take the initiative in a way that feels natural, if you've played in any of my games, this isn't news to you :P )  while Austin Walker is the DM I want to be. 

 

Friends at the Table demonstrates what a group of close friends with a lot of experience gaming and an openness to new and different systems can do together. I largely listen to FatT the way I watch The Joy of Painting; it's a demonstration of people doing something they do very well. The thing about a well run RPG is that it's basically a shared lucid dream. Creating a world and allowing your friends to feel like they're inhabiting it is something I've only experienced a couple times, as a player and as a DM, and they are the most deeply satisfying gaming experiences of my life. However, this also means that listening to a real play of a well run RPG is about as interesting as hearing about someone else's dream they had. Which is why I completely get it when people bounce of FatT. 

 

Also, part of the reason I think FatT works is that they're not using D&D as the basis of their play. More modern story-telling games include rules that effectively act as dramatic tools as much as they simulate a physical interaction. This means that even in a story where the players aren't necessarily the prime movers of the plot (like in TaZ) , the players can still exert some agency and make things interesting. Old style D&D is basically an analogue video game which exists to settle disputes, leaving all of the dramatic heavy lifting in the laps of the DM and the players.

I wonder how TaZ would go if they started using Dungeon World or something. However, I get the impression that they, like 99% of people who play RPGs, wouldn't want to bother learning a whole new system to do, ostensibly, the exact same thing (collaboratively make a story). These aren't thing I think are necessarily bad about the McEl-boys since it takes a special kind of weirdo to care enough about PnP games to really dig into alternative systems but for me, who's interest is mostly in the craft of DM-ing and RP-ing, I find TaZ deeply unsatisfying. 

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To be fair to Griffin, I do feel some sympathy for the fact that the two main criticisms levelled against him are pushing him in exactly opposite directions: on the one hand, people hate that he let things like the Kravitz plot get sidelined; on the other, people get mad that he funnels things along too much. But that doesn't affect how I feel about the final result. The latest TTAZZ crystallised a lot of this for me: what they described as the podcast coming into its own and really starting in earnest was an almost exact inverse of my enjoyment of it.

 

Clint's explanation for Merle's antagonism towards Angus was pretty nice, mind you.

 

That Justin tweet makes me want to unsubscribe, though. Jesus.

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53 minutes ago, Reyturner said:

I wonder how TaZ would go if they started using Dungeon World or something. However, I get the impression that they, like 99% of people who play RPGs, wouldn't want to bother learning a whole new system to do, ostensibly, the exact same thing (collaboratively make a story). These aren't thing I think are necessarily bad about the McEl-boys since it takes a special kind of weirdo to care enough about PnP games to really dig into alternative systems but for me, who's interest is mostly in the craft of DM-ing and RP-ing, I find TaZ deeply unsatisfying. 

 

They sound interested and perhaps even enthusiastic about doing this particular thing when the current arc ends.

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16 minutes ago, Reyturner said:

Friends at the Table demonstrates what a group of close friends with a lot of experience gaming and an openness to new and different systems can do together. I largely listen to FatT the way I watch The Joy of Painting; it's a demonstration of people doing something they do very well. The thing about a well run RPG is that it's basically a shared lucid dream. Creating a world and allowing your friends to feel like they're inhabiting it is something I've only experienced a couple times, as a player and as a DM, and they are the most deeply satisfying gaming experiences of my life. However, this also means that listening to a real play of a well run RPG is about as interesting as hearing about someone else's dream they had. Which is why I completely get it when people bounce of FatT. 

 

Hm, I'm not sure if their choice of system would really change the end product, Critical Role seems to make due in the D&D framework and makes a (generally) engaging product. It sounds like Clint wants to do something with super heroes next which sounds interesting. I think TAZ at the beginning for me felt like the total inverse of of FaaT, but I think in the last few arcs has been trying to mold itself into something resembling FaaT which only works if everyone at the table buys into this world and self-serious lore.

 

50 minutes ago, Gormongous said:


Trying to take feedback in stride instead of defensively maintaining that their way is the only way it could possibly work is probably a good first step, but I don't have a podcast, so I can't say for sure.

 

I happen to agree with the feedback given, but I often feel like criticizing role playing feels too much like saying "Your Fun is Wrong". If Griffin is having a good time, and his players are having a good time I don't really see a problem. It might not be for us, but as long as the people involved with it directly are having fun I can't really fault them. 

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