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The stuff he wrote there makes sense. Just that they've been in a setting with no real theme, fighting random monsters and not interacting with many NPCs while they literally loop through rooms.

If they had just done the sacrifice game once that would be more interesting to me. But they went through 3 times. It did give more chances for interesting sacrifices but it dragged and felt more repetitive each time.

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I'm not totally convinced by the "This is not sadistic, I just want to tangibly endanger them and strip them of their powers" argument. I think I still trust that Griffin is going someplace meaningful (or at least not more gross) with this. However, I really don't want to listen to many more episodes where they are shown adventurers that have been blinded and otherwise mutilated and are almost death because Taako literally couldn't have survived another fight.

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If I'm not mistaken, this is the last arc, correct? So the fact it's so abusive toward the players doesn't mean as much as it would have earlier on.

 

Also, they're at such a level in D&D that they're approaching (or have already surpassed?) absurd demigods (EDIT: which he says in his post heh). I'm okay with it being a punishing arc for that reason alone.

 

I've not once been bored. /shrug

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God I hope the abuse serves a better purpose than just to strip the characters that we will be saying goodbye soon of their powers. If it only served a stupid game mechanics purpose, it would feel even more gross to me.

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For the same reason I don't like that pets, children, and love interests are killed in movies just to give the protagonist the justification and motivation for his carnage. This is not on the same level, obviously, but I'm definitely more interested in the characters and the story of The Adventure Zone than the silly dice rolling bit, and if the protagonists turn out to be mutilated and otherwise tortured just because the leveling system in D&D is stupid or whatever, then it is gonna feel really stupid and disrespectful of the characters.

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All right. I think that's a very reductive way of looking at it but hey.

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They are literally suffering

to allow liches to feed off of their torture so I can see the complaint with it.

 

 

I don't think this is the final arc though, isn't this just the 2nd last relic? It's the 6th of 7 if I remember right.

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I've read Griffin's post about it and I get what he's going for, and in theory the idea of using "narrative damage" to build stakes is pretty clever. In practice, though, I don't think it actually works, mostly because it doesn't feel like they're being punished for choices they've made, they're just being put through the grinder repeatedly and unavoidably. I initially thought Wonderland was going to be a puzzle, and they would have to keep enduring punishment until they solved it, which might also have worked ok, but they found the lich and it's spend the last two episodes telling them just to wait for the signal, so I guess the solution is just "wait for this NPC to solve it for you". Also, as someone on the reddit thread put it: "Merle getting his arm hacked off by Magnus because he saved his friends from an exploding crystal is fun and interesting. Merle losing his eye because a random number generator landed on "lose an eye" just doesn't have that same impact."

 

The episodes have still had some great character moments and goofs, so these episodes haven't been a complete slog, but I wish whoever DM's the next game can find a different way to provide tension.

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Griffin has said this is indeed the last arc before the final conclusion which I assume will be a mini-arc like the moonlighting arcs.
It is the 6th of 7, but this is the last relic retrieving arc, if I understand what Griffin has said thus far. The relics thus far are:

1. the flamefire gauntlet 2. the oculus rift  3. the gaia sash 4. harry potter and the sorcerer's stone 5. the time chalice 6. the animus bell

I think that this arc is super influenced by the Spike Chunsoft games (virtue's last reward, dragon grandpa, etc) and I understand why this wears on some people. I feel like there are so many different aspects of the podcast that individuals gravitate toward that it's hard to make everyone happy with every arc, unless you are really just interested in the story telling Griffin is doing, which is why I'm in to the show. I like that Griffin has plotted out these stories and is hitting specific moments for his players to play out, and am willing to give him as much time as he & the tres horny boys need to get there.

I wonder if people who had missed listening to the show in real time and marathon listened are caught up and now have to listen in real time and it's extra painful for them. I have been listening as they came out from the jump, so this arc isn't bothering me really at all. The time loop was way more tedious to me.

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I think I binged to catch up shortly before the time loop arc started, but honestly it's hard for me to really say when it was I started. Anyway I liked the time loop a lot, too, so I'm probably just a bad person. :P (It probably helps that I listen to a lot of different fictional podcasts (role-playing and otherwise!), so one having a dud week doesn't affect me as much as if it were the only one.)

 

I will say I'm SUPER DUPER looking forward to seeing what Justin does when he's running a game (I get the impression he's running the next one, anyway).

 

EDIT: The criticism that The Adventure Zone is focusing too much on the gamey aspects for this arc strikes me as funny because I know some people really hate certain aspects of The Adventure Zone related to that. Particularly Griffin's tendency to force his players along his own storyline, rather than allow them a lot of freedom, like, say, Austin Walker does with Friends at the Table. In other words, it's not gamey enough for their tastes. Which is something I can empathize with, but doesn't personally bother me.

 

EDIT EDIT: It also strikes me as funny that my definition of "gamey" in the context of tabletop RPGs is greater narrative freedom being placed in the hands of the players. So everything I said probably makes no sense. D: I'm bad. D:

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5 hours ago, Twig said:

 

EDIT: The criticism that The Adventure Zone is focusing too much on the gamey aspects for this arc strikes me as funny because I know some people really hate certain aspects of The Adventure Zone related to that. Particularly Griffin's tendency to force his players along his own storyline, rather than allow them a lot of freedom, like, say, Austin Walker does with Friends at the Table. In other words, it's not gamey enough for their tastes. Which is something I can empathize with, but doesn't personally bother me.

 

That's my particular criticism of the podcast (except, as you've noted, NOT gamey) and when he posted his thoughts I told him as much. I think between his extremely setpiece-heavy narrative and Justin's insistence that talking isn't playing Dungeons and Dragons, they've put themselves in a place where none of the boys feel like they're allowed to say no. They've joked that they should have t-shirts that say "We Do That", but the herding between funhouse rooms isn't amazing dungeoneering. Can you imagine if they stopped the loop, where they didn't accept any sacrifices? Holy shit that would have been amazing. Or if Merle had turned undead (and other Cleric magic) because damn they liches, girl.

 

 

This is unrelated to the rest of it, but fucking OOF did I recoil physically when he said BOSS RUSH. That was awful. It's such anathema to the rest of the game.

 

The chalice is definitely the peak of all the elements coming together to make a good game and a good podcast. It's a puzzle, it's a contained but unconstrained area, and they got to go everywhere and do everything.

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Yeah, the time chalice arc was great, and the overall contrast between that arc and this one, is why I dislike what I have heard of this one so much.

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I did binge up til this arc so I think that's a lot of it (especially when 2 weeks is the wait between episodes). But also yes the contrast between this and the last arc is stark. The 11th Hour felt very Friends at the Table like to me. Griffin had characters and events but he let the boys off the leash and do things out of his intended order, probably because as a time loop there wasn't really a way for them to miss things by playing it 'wrong'.

 

Griffin's storytelling is fine, but not my interest. I like the surprising moments where systems collide. When Taako realised he could levitate a crab and then get Magnus to punch it out the train window, that stuff is great and surprising. I like Actual Play podcasts more than scripted fiction because the unexpected improvised turns are always more fun to me than the more obvious fictional arcs. I'm rarely very surprised by Griffins pre-planned twists but I love every unexpected turn.

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11 hours ago, Badfinger said:


Can you imagine if they stopped the loop, where they didn't accept any sacrifices?
 

 

Holy shit I was hoping so much that this would happen. I thought they were going to do it!!!, but then they didn't. ):

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57 minutes ago, Twig said:

 

Holy shit I was hoping so much that this would happen. I thought they were going to do it!!!, but then they didn't. ):

It'll live on in our minds as a cherished alternate reality forever.

 

I should also be clear that I <3 those boys and the podcast and I finished my thoughts with telling them as such. In between episodes of this arc, to fill podcast space, I have been relistening to the whole series and I got to the Flophouse guestcast, so I listened to both of those back to back, and the difference in construction is stark. Those episodes are mostly figuring things out by talking.

 

Should I just give up on S1 of Friends and start S2? I like a lot of what's going on but the audio made me not like the paladin because he was loud and crackly, and I can't (6-7 episodes in? They've split up) hear the fighter even now. I can always go back, right? It feels crazy to skip 30 episodes of a sequential podcast, but...

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I've always been curious what would happen if one of the players in The Adventure Zone just said no, especially when Griffin is obviously setting up a trap for them, but I think they're all too experienced as entertainers and comedians to snuff out someone's bit like that. Also, Griffin's used instantaneous incurable poison, surprise 20+ stats during opposed skill checks, and immune-to-everything baddies to railroad them before, so I'm not convinced that he wouldn't just make them do it anyway.

 

9 minutes ago, Badfinger said:

Should I just give up on S1 of Friends and start S2? I like a lot of what's going on but the audio made me not like the paladin because he was loud and crackly, and I can't (6-7 episodes in? They've split up) hear the fighter even now. I can always go back, right? It feels crazy to skip 30 episodes of a sequential podcast, but...

 

I am also curious about this. I tried hard with the first season, because I love Austin's DMing, but some of the players were bleh and other players talked to much and/or were hard to listen to, so I gave up after four or five episodes.

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FatT gets better and better as they go on.

 

Holy shit can I understand the complaints about Art's mic. HOLY SHIT!! It's so fucking bad in those early episodes. It does get better, though. I... don't remember when, but it does take a while. D:

 

As for the characters/players themselves, they also get better. I think some of them are relatively new to tabletop RPGs in the beginning, while others are very experienced, and that imbalance makes it kinda rough all around. Hella in particular is a very... mixed character, before she finds her voice. It definitely pays off as they all figure out what they're doing with each other. Speaking personally: I flipped a lot from not really liking most of the characters (but loving a select two) to wanting to hear everything they do forever.

 

I'd say if you aren't enjoying S1, give S2 a shot, since it's an entirely different series (and one that's Finished, as opposed to one that's Ongoing). Or maybe do their Marielda miniseries, which might be my favorite stuff to date. It's a prequel of sorts to S1/3. Though it starts off a little offbeat as they use a different system to build the world before jumping into the main characters' shoes.

 

...

 

Honestly I've been thinking about making a thread (or many threads??) to talk about the myriad of fictional podcasts I listen to for a while. Maybe I should do that. Give these thoughts more structure, and more room to breathe. Not right now though; I'm working!! OSTENSIBLY!!!!

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26 minutes ago, Badfinger said:

It'll live on in our minds as a cherished alternate reality forever.

 

I should also be clear that I <3 those boys and the podcast and I finished my thoughts with telling them as such. In between episodes of this arc, to fill podcast space, I have been relistening to the whole series and I got to the Flophouse guestcast, so I listened to both of those back to back, and the difference in construction is stark. Those episodes are mostly figuring things out by talking.

 

Forgot to respond to this, but yeah I noticed that too in the latest special. It's a very interesting contrast.

 

I don't personally thing one way is worse or better than the other, but they are different so I can understand why people can have a preference.

 

There's a part of me that wishes Griffin was actually flexible as a DM, but also a part of me that's like "I've never disliked the end product, so I don't really care".

 

All of this though is why I said earlier I can't wait for Justin to DM. I'm hoping it'll be a shift in storytelling style. Maybe it won't be, though! Maybe I'll just be disappointed. )':

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Justin has been pretty vocal that he's not interested in DMing and has deflected whenever it's come up on the show iirc.

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10 minutes ago, jennegatron said:

Justin has been pretty vocal that he's not interested in DMing and has deflected whenever it's come up on the show iirc.

 

Which is a shame, because Justin's a strong storyteller in his writing and is, in their other shows, often the most inventive of the brothers. The reasons that he typically gives, mostly that he couldn't hope to come up with something as creative and unique as Griffin, make me sad. I wouldn't mind a D&D campaign with a fuckin' castle and dragon, it doesn't all have to be medieval Men in Black from the moon!

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I love the podcast, I just see the parts that frustrate me more than excite me right now. I'm pretty excited for when Travis gets a chance to DM, as he's clearly the most experienced player and has also expressed interest.

 

In other McElroy news, I saw the trailer for the show and it has me cautiously optimistic. They need to thread the needle between the feeling that they got a budget so they went and did something completely unlike the current show, and hewing so closely to the current format that you end up asking why they made it. But it's promising so far!

 

My friend who has watched all the McElboy vids finally listened to MBMBAM and was like "holy shit the dog's purpose episode was funny". Yeah my dude, it's a pretty good show. He pointed out that knowing Justin and Griffin's corpus, it's pretty hilarious that Travis is the one that's painted with the "corny bad joke" brush.

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I'd definitely recommend skipping ahead to another season in FatT if audio issues or teething troubles bug you in season 1. They're separate arcs and even after Marielda they did a recap of the first season to catch people up before continuing with it.

 

I think the problem with the boys saying no to Griffin is that it's the antithesis of the "Yes and" you're supposed to do in improv. Obviously Griffin doesn't always "yes and", but he has to do a lot more prep for the show and doesn't seem to be that experienced a player. If that's how they all want to play the game (and mostly they seem to be happy with it) then I'm not going to complain too much about that specifically.

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