Please tip your postmate

[Twig]

In this case it's more of an issue that these kinds of workers are already overworked and underpaid, so removing an avenue to make fairer prices is an unethical business practice that ought to not be supported.

 

Correct!

 

I said earlier I think tipping is garbage. But when the person serving me (in whatever fashion) is not making as much money as they should be, I'm going to go with the option that allows tipping, because I can afford it, and they need it.

[clyde]

I'm confused. I was under the assumption that Lyft was paying their freelancers less than Uber and depending on tips to make up for the difference. Is this not the case?

[Twig]

Kind of depends on where you are. On average Uber probably pays slightly more, but not by a significant amount.

 

http://www.fastcompany.com/3048563/fast-feed/this-is-how-much-uber-and-lyft-drivers-make-in-different-cities

 

I'm pretty sure that doesn't include tips.

 

I live in Dallas, and this tells me Uber pays more, but I've had drivers in Dallas tell me Lyft pays more. It definitely pays more with tips.

 

It's also worth noting that you can tip your Uber driver, but they're not allowed to mention tips at all, and you have to do it with cash, which, if you're using Uber, you're probably not the type to carry around small bills for tips...

[Badfinger]

In this case it's more of an issue that these kinds of workers are already overworked and underpaid, so removing an avenue to make fairer prices is an unethical business practice that ought to not be supported.

Others have chimed in, but this is correct in my mind. This is how I address it. My feelings are pretty well known about Uber, though (see below for how I feel about Uber!).

 

I'm confused. I was under the assumption that Lyft was paying their freelancers less than Uber and depending on tips to make up for the difference. Is this not the case?

 

My understanding is it's less of a wage gap specifically, and more that Uber has presented a completely opaque front where you click the little button and the might-as-well-be-a-robot picks you up and then puts you where the second pin in the map is and then the money is magicked from you to them. Introducing a step where the drivers are allowed to talk about tipping breaks their smooth business model, which just happens to be a business model that doesn't give a FUCK about the person actually providing you the service.

[Salacious Snake]

I'm glad this is being discussed. I tried Postmates, but before I placed the order, I googled around to see about tipping and stuff, since the app didn't mention it up front. (As others have mentioned, it does prompt you to tip after the delivery is complete.) So, I tipped with cash, which they probably appreciate anyway.

 

Icky business model aside, it's pretty incredible being able to expand my delivery zone. I have an annoying dietary restriction that makes it really hard to do the takeout thing otherwise (ow, right in the gluten). Getting stuff delivered from Manhattan to Brooklyn is baller as fuck.

[Vader]

I'm glad this is being discussed. I tried Postmates, but before I placed the order, I googled around to see about tipping and stuff, since the app didn't mention it up front. (As others have mentioned, it does prompt you to tip after the delivery is complete.) So, I tipped with cash, which they probably appreciate anyway.

 

Icky business model aside, it's pretty incredible being able to expand my delivery zone. I have an annoying dietary restriction that makes it really hard to do the takeout thing otherwise (ow, right in the gluten). Getting stuff delivered from Manhattan to Brooklyn is baller as fuck.

 

Glad I'm not the only one who looked like a foolish old man tipping with cash. The delivery lady was pretty eager to run off before I handed her the money which was odd, and the tipping on the receipt later clarified things for me a bit.  

But yeah, Postmates convenient and all. Go around the icky business model to compensate the deliverers well, and its pretty sweet.

[Gormongous]

Independent contractors who are paid based on work done rather than by time worked are exempt from minimum wage laws. Labor laws are screwy.

 

And, in the case of adjunct instructors, "time worked" only applies to the time spent teaching the class, so the "generous" wage of $65 an hour paid to teach a three credit-hour course is actually slightly less than minimum wage even if the adjunct is some ridiculous machine who's able to keep prep and grading to twenty hours a week. In general, the idea of a "contractor" has drifted so far from the spirit of the law that it's functionally unrecognizable.

[clyde]

And, in the case of adjunct instructors, "time worked" only applies to the time spent teaching the class, so the "generous" wage of $65 an hour paid to teach a three credit-hour course is actually slightly less than minimum wage even if the adjunct is some ridiculous machine who's able to keep prep and grading to twenty hours a week. In general, the idea of a "contractor" has drifted so far from the spirit of the law that it's functionally unrecognizable.

 

So should students tip you?

[Twig]

Lol what a world that would be.

[syntheticgerbil]

So, I may be expanding the conversation here beyond the realm of what it should be (if so, I apologize), but I did want to weigh in on a few things.

 

I don't know how postmate works, if the drivers are employees or contractors (which works out in different ways), or whatever, but I DID want to clarify that in the US, all companies ARE REQUIRED to make sure that their employees make the minimum federal wage ($7.25/hr). While this IS a separate minimum wage for tipped workers (2.13), if an employee makes less than an average of 7.25/hr for a pay period, including their declared tips, the employer is required to make up the gap in their paycheck (ie: if you worked 50 hours and made $0 in tips (you would be a terrible waiter, but whatever), instead of getting $106, like normal for people that make more than minimum wage on their tips, you would get $362 on your paycheck). 

 

Now, this doesn't mean that you should tip people who rely on tips--largely because the minimum wage is garbage and shouldn't be used as a barometer--but it is an important clarification, and also something that many people who know about the separate wage for service workers don't seem to know. 

 

I do have another thing on these topics though: Tipping is awful and we need to get rid of it. Services that don't allow tipping are far, far, far better. The actual wages of the job should be what attracts people to the job, and the fact that businesses externalize their expenses into a separate system is entirely ridiculous. This does not, in any way shape or form mean that you should stop tipping people who rely on tips (don't be an ahole), because they people rely on their tips--don't punish the people lowest on the totem pole for a messed up setup. BUT it DOES mean that for new services and new jobs, etc, that don't necessarily include tipping, please dear god, DO NOT push for it. Tipping doesn't reflect service, almost ever (something study after study shows), and it's very possible and easy for systems to work without tipping (see: somehow food industries in non-tipping countries manage to exist), but it DOES create unnecessary frustration.

Exactly this (although I'm sure Postmates are 1099). Whenever people act like tipped employees make $2.13 an hour, they are wrong, that's not the case ever by federal law. The problem all goes back to low minimum wage anyway. Most tipped employees are making a "fair" enough amount over minimum wage anyway. If minimum wage were higher I'm sure the waiting or bartending job would be way less desirable.

 

Also I work at Favor, it works exactly like Postmates. They are most likely given some minimum an hour if they don't go over. At Favor it's $9/hr. (in Texas at least) since I barely go over because no one tips well and the orders take forever. However I blame the company and would rather just have them raise what you get an hour, not depend on the customer to give you some extravagant tip to match their bullshit advertised average of $15/hr. I don't expect someone to give me 15% tip on $125 of prescription meds. They are already paying out the ass for medicine, don't even worry about tipping. I'd rather just be of service, get the minimum $9/hr. and go home. It's flexible and so fucking easy it's stupid. I spend a lot of time listening to podcasts just playing 3DS honestly.

 

Also if Postmates works like Favor, they aren't tipping people on togo orders, which I already yelled about in some other thread about even more tipped employees getting mad. Angry restaurant staff is the only bad part of the job.

 

However if Postmates does not have some minimum set, even though it's the same as Favor, then it's just not even worth it. You're on a 1099 and will have to try your damnedest to deduct gas mileage from income tax the next year, because federal minimum wage laws don't help you on a 1099. People have the option to just not work there and work at Favor instead. Or really there's more than a few other easy jobs out there that pay at least minimum wage, don't require you to spend your own gas money, don't require you to buy a data plan, and don't put you at a high risk of a car wreck if they in fact stuck at working below minimum wage.

 

I know for instance if you just deliver pizzas for Domino's or something you generally make more than either Favor or Postmates and your delivery area is not a whole fucking city you have to learn where to park and not get towed and memorize as many complicated apartment complexes and lofts as you can. Those are probably more desirable to work at in terms of money and driving around. The reason I stick with Favor is because I'm in school until June and I can just give away my work hours literally an hour before my schedule sometimes if I have to. It's ridiculously flexible and I can just make whatever hours I feel like working. Also if I have some freelance project I can just decide I don't want to work that week. That's the perks, not the money.

 

Short answer, don't worry about these new delivery companies, they are desirable because you work whenever the fuck you want, not because you are somehow going to be taking home anything they advertise.

[Griddlelol]

I was going to write about why tipping sucks but I'm sure everyone already knows.

Really informative post synth, I'm not entirely sure how it works in the UK. I believe many of these people are on zero hour contracts, which means they get paid minimum wage but have no security. There's been lots of complaints about these sorts of contracts, but most people love them thanks to the flexibility. It's mainly people in your situation - they're students and want money when they can. The problem is when people have them and need to support a family, which is impossible and when government statistics include zero hour contracts in unemployment rates.

[Ben X]

I think there was a big (heated) conversation about tipping in general a while back, can't be bothered to do a search on my phone. I've been waiting for this one to boil over...

[syntheticgerbil]

Really informative post synth, I'm not entirely sure how it works in the UK. I believe many of these people are on zero hour contracts, which means they get paid minimum wage but have no security. There's been lots of complaints about these sorts of contracts, but most people love them thanks to the flexibility. It's mainly people in your situation - they're students and want money when they can. The problem is when people have them and need to support a family, which is impossible and when government statistics include zero hour contracts in unemployment rates.

Yeah it's basically so you can tell your job to fuck off when you need it to fuck off. The big problem I had with other part time jobs in the past during school is when your boss sees you are competent he/she wants you to work more hours and there's all this pressure to give in and do so because people depend on you.

 

I hear Uber drivers make a lot more money than Postmates and Favor so I can't speak for them, but they also let strangers in their car so it makes sense. These delivery jobs are simply a bad idea if you are trying to support a family. You are better off delivering for Jason's Deli or a pizza place or just working at Taco Bell or something.

 

There is no way in hell I would have taken this job if it weren't for the minimum $9/hr. I did the math before my first day. I really wish other drivers would have done the math because I often find myself consoling them in awkward elevator rides to rich condos that everyone else is pretty much making minimum 90% of the time so they shouldn't feel bad.

 

But it breaks down like this. You get $1.75 to $2.50 per delivery depending on the day. The customer is required to tip at least $2. The general suggested tip by the app is $5 unless it's a far away order or expensive. Most of your orders average $10-20 of food. Sometimes you might just pick something up and there's no cash involved. Favor as a company says orders take about 35 minutes. Should you do two an hour, you made at worst $7.50. Let's say you are wasting a $1 of gas per hour with current prices. So then it's $6.50. Take down wear and tear on your car and a data plan cost and it's just pointless to do if you weren't guaranteed a minimum.

 

But the thing is if someone is buying $10 worth of tacos, $2 is still over a 15% tip, so why get annoyed at the customer? And the reality of the situation is an order generally takes 45 minutes to an hour. You are probably driving 10-15 minutes each way and then if it's a restaurant you are generally waiting 30 minutes as well for them to make the food. Maybe add time if they hate Favor and want to ignore you for as long as they can or drag their feet on purpose. When you get to some person's place, it's generally a rich person, as that's your customer base, so they live in these condo/loft security fortresses with keycards, pass codes, concierges, and protected/limited parking, so there's a lot of wasted time there as well getting both in and out. Also sometimes there's 5-20 minutes between assigned orders where you are just sitting in your car (my 3DS time). My record is two and a half hours on a $12 order from a busy restaurant on a busy Sunday. This particular restaurant is not unheard of for other drivers, very popular and worth the wait to many customers.

 

So if you are taking let's say a $30 order and it takes you an hour with either Postmates or Favor, the customer tips 15% that's still $4.5 plus whatever delivery amount, which is probably $4 maximum if even that on Postmates. Still not hitting that $9/hr. mark. The job only ever really pays good money if you have a super generous customer tipping way too much money, which is a silly thing to expect, or if you can somehow rapid fire orders, which is not often. If you work at a pizza place you have one place you pick up pizzas, they are ready to go when you get to motherbase, you complete way more deliveries an hour, and you know your limited area.

 

I feel like the only way these jobs could pay better than what they do now is not if people were more generous in tipping, since the customer is not really the problem, but that these companies  should give you way more money per completed order or just guarantee a higher minimum per hour.

 

These tech app delivery jobs are pretty much butler jobs for rich people and not really necessary to have in our society. I would never use Favor myself, I don't see the point of paying $5 plus 5% of the order cost PLUS tipping some driver 15% of the whole order, especially if it's for some chinese food or burgers. While I mentioned medication earlier, it's still to rich clientele. There are courier services for pharmacies that are way cheaper and mass deliver to people in hospice care or homes who are not able to make it because of disabilities or financial circumstances in their life. My wife used to do pharmaceutical courier job for a few months in between jobs and it was a full time flat rate an hour thing, not reliant on tips, and it helped people who needed the medication.

 

The only time I'm not serving rich or well off people is late at night (which I pretty much always work because I'm just getting Whataburger rapid fire over and over) and I'm delivering to people stoned out of their fucking mind with bloodshot eyes and tons of weed smoke emitting from their apartment. Also I find this hilarious.

[SuperBiasedMan]

The zero hours contracts are flexible and worker friendly in theory but in reality employers hold more power and can dictate when they want people to work rather than the other way around. I've had friends technically employed but getting no work for weeks because their employer wanted to be able to call on them if they needed to.

 

As with most things, the issue is not that it can't work but that there isn't sufficient regulation to make it work fairly.

[Salacious Snake]

Now I understand what was going on when I tried to pick up some mac and cheese at S'mac a while ago. The kitchen was super backed up because of this one dude picking up a shitload of orders, and the place was full of disgruntled customers. I figured he was doing deliveries, but now I realize it was a service like Postmates.

 

In fact, looking back at articles on it, that was right when they started their service in NYC, so it was probably an extra large clusterfuck at the time.

[Mangela Lansbury]

Exactly this (although I'm sure Postmates are 1099). Whenever people act like tipped employees make $2.13 an hour, they are wrong, that's not the case ever by federal law. The problem all goes back to low minimum wage anyway. Most tipped employees are making a "fair" enough amount over minimum wage anyway. If minimum wage were higher I'm sure the waiting or bartending job would be way less desirable.

 

I don't know anyone who's waited tables for a long time and not occasionally made under minimum wage.

 

Also, I've seen enough local news stories about restaurants having to pay tons of money in back pay because they never appropriately compensated their employees when they made under minimum wage to know that it's common practice to stiff the employee. The most recent judgment against a local business was for a place called Sophia's House of Pancakes.

 

Assuming that businesses obey the law is not a good place to start. It's standard practice to abuse the kinds of workers who live off of tips.

[Vader]

I just want to clarify: I'm not suggesting people tip 20-25% of their Postmate order if they are getting, like, an XBone delivered to them or something. I think I said it earlier, but 20-25% of a MEDIAN priced order of similar size/weight is I think appropriate. I would probably tip somewhere in the $10-$15 range for an order like that. Might be pretty generous, but it's not like I'm ordering XBones every Saturday. 

I haven't held a lot of service industry jobs, so I can't speak to the whole tipping law thing. I'm always a little skeptical of arguments that try to downplay how fucking shitty the pay is, though. At Sonic, for instance, carhops are payed less than minimum wage in accordance with the tipping exception, but their credit card machines don't allow tips to be added :-/ I've heard this might be remedied soon in response to the backlash, so that's good

 

If someone wants to flame me for being full of shit I guess that's cool, but I like to err on the side of being a decent human being and tip people who probably aren't that well paid to begin with. Of course I would prefer a tip free society where everyone is just paid at least $15 an hour, but I think it was Gandalf who said something like "we can't help that we live in a shitty world, but we all need to be the best we can in that world" or something.

[Griddlelol]

I worked as a waiter in the UK for about 4 years. I was paid cash in hand, and tips went to the owner who would (yes, would) distribute them as an Xmas bonus. The idea was that it stopped staff fighting over the regulars who tip a lot, and made it fair so the people behind the scenes also got some of that money.

 

I made £50 a night. Sometimes that was significantly above minimum wage, sometimes it was below. Tips didn't affect how well I did my job. Being professional, and wanting to keep the job affected how I did my job.

[Vader]

I worked as a waiter in the UK for about 4 years. I was paid cash in hand, and tips went to the owner who would (yes, would) distribute them as an Xmas bonus. The idea was that it stopped staff fighting over the regulars who tip a lot, and made it fair so the people behind the scenes also got some of that money.

 

I made £50 a night. Sometimes that was significantly above minimum wage, sometimes it was below. Tips didn't affect how well I did my job. Being professional, and wanting to keep the job affected how I did my job.

 

Yeah, I honestly can't speak to how things differ in the UK. If a business in the US implemented a similar system and paid a livable hourly wage besides, I would definitely get behind it.

[Dragonfliet]

I don't know anyone who's waited tables for a long time and not occasionally made under minimum wage.

 

Also, I've seen enough local news stories about restaurants having to pay tons of money in back pay because they never appropriately compensated their employees when they made under minimum wage to know that it's common practice to stiff the employee. The most recent judgment against a local business was for a place called Sophia's House of Pancakes.

 

Assuming that businesses obey the law is not a good place to start. It's standard practice to abuse the kinds of workers who live off of tips.

Granted, I only ever worked in slightly nice to upscale places, but I never made anything close to minimum wage for a pay period. Always way above. Your smaller, cheaper, "home cooking" type places, though, this can be a problem. 

But those places are very flagrantly breaking the law. Yes, people can break the law, but this doesn't meant that the laws are in place (it's also really, really easy to sue for violations as there is a very simple paper trail where you declare your tips each night, and this is reflected on pay stubs. 

 

But this is actually another reason I'm very opposed to adding tips to any service. Banning tips and requiring employers to just PAY their employees makes things less subject to abuse (part of the problem with tipping is that it is a very fluid, under-the-table kind of system, much of the time), as the paper trail is much clearer and straight-forward.

[syntheticgerbil]

I don't know anyone who's waited tables for a long time and not occasionally made under minimum wage.

 

Also, I've seen enough local news stories about restaurants having to pay tons of money in back pay because they never appropriately compensated their employees when they made under minimum wage to know that it's common practice to stiff the employee. The most recent judgment against a local business was for a place called Sophia's House of Pancakes.

 

Assuming that businesses obey the law is not a good place to start. It's standard practice to abuse the kinds of workers who live off of tips.

If they are making under minimum wage they always have the choice to not work at a place that doesn't run an illegal operation. They can also tell on them to whatever work force commission is in their state to handle these. There are lots of other unskilled jobs that are easy to get that pay minimum wage or slightly over. Lots of times they only require a pulse. I don't see why it's so important to be a waiter if you are getting screwed. It's a minimum wage problem for everyone, not woe-is-me waitstaff types only.

 

I just want to clarify: I'm not suggesting people tip 20-25% of their Postmate order if they are getting, like, an XBone delivered to them or something. I think I said it earlier, but 20-25% of a MEDIAN priced order of similar size/weight is I think appropriate. I would probably tip somewhere in the $10-$15 range for an order like that. Might be pretty generous, but it's not like I'm ordering XBones every Saturday.

Because the problem lies in the math. Even if everyone were generous, the way the service is set up is that they would still most likely get under the guarantee unless they got orders that could be done quickly and orders that were worth more. If you order a burger like you started the thread with and tipped 25% it's still not a big help, they got stuck with an order for a burger for 45 minutes when they probably want an order with $50 worth of food to actually get paid well. But again, that's not the customers fault and I don't think the customer should really worry about it, because ultimately the problem lies with Postmates and Favor for not paying enough.

 

And I looked it up, at least in Newport Beach CA, if you take all given orders with Postmates (It might even be forced to take all like Favor now) you get $12/hr. guaranteed. So if you purchase an $8 burger and I don't know what you get per delivery, let's just say $5 even though I'm betting that's high. If you tip them 50% of your burger, assuming they are delivering at 1.5 an hour your tip just was probably pissed away in the wind because the company had to up the hourly to the $12/hr. guarantee so the driver would have been getting paid the same even if you had tipped $2. So really you overtipping isn't really making a difference here unless you want to basically tip the price of the burger completely. The only way you could seriously make a difference is to not waste their time with small orders, only order big, and then tip 20% on that.

 

I've had orders where I buy an ice cream and drive it 20 minutes away melted. One recently where I bought two McDonald's fries for a bunch of lazy girls in a dorm literally one block away, finding time to park was longer than actually walking there. These are all pointless orders that are not worth it, but again none of that is their fault on the customer end because these services allow for that and the blame lies with the company.

 

Part of the reason I work late is because almost all restaurants are closed and fast food over and over means I finally have the possibility of making over the minimum because I can get like 5 or 6 orders done in two hours sometimes and the more high they are the better they tip. Plus I don't have to deal with surly restaurant staff. Otherwise the only actual way to make over the minimum before that time (late afternoon/early evening) is big orders only.

 

When people say "service industry" it goes far beyond tipped employees and really the work varies and the pay is not always bad, but the pay could be better across the board because it's all unskilled work that doesn't necessarily have to mean poverty.

 

But this is actually another reason I'm very opposed to adding tips to any service. Banning tips and requiring employers to just PAY their employees makes things less subject to abuse (part of the problem with tipping is that it is a very fluid, under-the-table kind of system, much of the time), as the paper trail is much clearer and straight-forward.

Yes, it's just a way for the restaurants to get out of having to spend money on their waitstaff now. I salute all restaurants and bars that have finally done away with tipped employees and have started paying them a fair wage.

[Twig]

If they are making under minimum wage they always have the choice to not work at a place that doesn't run an illegal operation.

 

No, they don't always have that choice. That's like saying they always have the choice to work somewhere that pays more. Or that everyone has the choice to be a multimillionaire CEO.

[Vader]

No, they don't always have that choice. That's like saying they always have the choice to work somewhere that pays more. Or that everyone has the choice to be a multimillionaire CEO.

 

If Bob Cratchit can't afford medicine for Tiny Tim, why doesn't he simply go work for someone else who pays better? Scrooge is under no obligation to pay Cratchit more, if the market has valued Cratchit's work at the expense Scrooge is paying him.

[syntheticgerbil]

No, they don't always have that choice. That's like saying they always have the choice to work somewhere that pays more. Or that everyone has the choice to be a multimillionaire CEO.

Yeah that's not the same at all. In what city are there not enough department stores, drug stores, coffee shops, Sonics, pet stores, and whatever else that hire anyone with a pulse on a guaranteed minimum wage? Even the most podunk of places still have these, probably even more likely than restaurants. Hell you could be a greeter at Walmart and get paid more. I think you are living in a dream world.

 

If anything it's harder to get a waiting job. Bartending even harder.

 

If Bob Cratchit can't afford medicine for Tiny Tim, why doesn't he simply go work for someone else who pays better? Scrooge is under no obligation to pay Cratchit more, if the market has valued Cratchit's work at the expense Scrooge is paying him.

If I recall in Christmas Carol, Scrooge wasn't stealing money from Cratchit and minimum wage didn't come into the tale. Again worry about minimum wage for everyone, not only tipped employees.

[Vader]

Yeah that's not the same at all. In what city are there not enough department stores, drug stores, coffee shops, Sonics, pet stores, and whatever else that hire anyone with a pulse on a guaranteed minimum wage? Hell you could be a greeter at Walmart and get paid more. I think you are living in a dream world.

 

If anything it's harder to get a waiting job. Bartending even harder.

 

Oof