Please tip your postmate

[Vader]

I haven't posted here in a while, but I felt inspired to get this message out there. Not being from San Fran I had never heard of Postmates until they started sponsoring Idle Thumbs a couple weeks ago. As someone who is car-less and in Philadelphia, the service had immediate appeal to me and I took advantage yesterday of the offer code "thumbs," though I am sad to report I did not order a Whiz Burger (such establishments do not exist on the East Coast, and I am a vegetarian which I think probably rules out "Whiz" as well as "Burger").

In any case, I found there to be a lack of tipping option when I put in my order. I was immediately a bit dismayed by this, as I know how poorly food services jobs pay. Even with the added "delivery fee," my driver would be left with only a few dollars to show for about 30-45 minutes of physical labor, as I found out that Postmates keeps 20% of delivery fees for themselves as overhead. Even though the base cost of deliveries might seem pricy, it is actually quite a lot of work for those who do the delivering. They should really be paid a tip on top of the service cost in order for them to pull in anything approaching a living wage.

I found out afterward that Postmates does give you an option to tip once they send you your receipt by email, but to me this seemed somewhat obscured and unintuitive. Because I didn't know I would have such an option, I tipped my Postmate with cash.

 

People in the service industry often struggle to make ends meet, so I just thought it would be good if the Thumbs Postmates community could be known for their generous tips. Thanks.

 

[clyde]

So if you don't tip then they don't make minimum-wage? How is this legal?

[Vader]

I'm sad to say that is the American service industry, Clyde :-/ In most states there is a separate minimum wage for jobs that can collect tips. Nationally, it is only $2.13

[clyde]

This Postmates company sounds incredibly exploitative of their workers.

[Vader]

Maybe. I don't like the fact that they don't seem to encourage tipping, though honestly their wage minus tip is probably better than what most restaurant servers get. 

We need better protection for workers, but that aside tipping well is a good way to make things more fair on a micro level.

[Twig]

Lack of tipping is one of the reasons I stopped using Uber. I probably wouldn't use Postmates for exactly that reason. That's a bummer. ):

 

Wish America would figure out its shit and outlaw tipping and increase minimum wage.

 

Well okay maybe outlawing tipping is a bit extreme, but eh. I hate it.

[SuperBiasedMan]

This Postmates company sounds incredibly exploitative of their workers.

 

This seems pretty on par for startups in the 'sharing economy' from what I've heard.

[Twig]

This seems pretty on par for startups in the 'sharing economy' from what I've heard.

Yeah pretty much.

[Dewar]

Postmates, Uber, Lyft, Dolly, and any of those other work sharing apps (I guess, I don't know what to call them) work because each person is an independent contractor, and thus isn't subject to the same minimum wage laws. In many ways it's dumb, but in others it's more efficient by cutting out at least some of the middleman stuff. That's part of the reason that taxi companies throw a fuss, because they can't offer prices as low because they have to stick to certain government regulations that increase cost.

 

In short, yes, tip!

 

Edit: Sharing economy, I guess that's as good of a term as any.

[tabacco]

Worth noting that unlike Uber, Lyft does let you tip at the end of a ride.

 

...and if you're in San Francisco, consider signing up for Scoot Networks instead of using Postmates. They're a pretty awesome way to run errands. And I'm not sharing a referral code, so you can trust me

[Twig]

Yeah, I should've said, I switched to using Lyft as an alternative! Most drivers I talk to prefer Lyft, anyway. They're just stuck using Uber, too, 'cause that's what most customers use.

[sclpls]

Postmates, Uber, Lyft, Dolly, and any of those other work sharing apps (I guess, I don't know what to call them) work because each person is an independent contractor, and thus isn't subject to the same minimum wage laws. In many ways it's dumb, but in others it's more efficient by cutting out at least some of the middleman stuff. That's part of the reason that taxi companies throw a fuss, because they can't offer prices as low because they have to stick to certain government regulations that increase cost.

 

In short, yes, tip!

 

Edit: Sharing economy, I guess that's as good of a term as any.

 

Lower wages are just the tip of the iceberg for the differences between employees and independent contractors. There are also issues like benefits, safety regulations, and protection from legal liability (this final point is especially important for companies like Uber) that cover employees that do not extend to independent contractors.

 

And you're absolutely right that this method of adopting legal fictions is a hallmark feature of the current crop of SF/Silicon Valley tech companies, and it makes me sick to my stomach thinking about this stuff. What's especially frustrating is these tactics seems completely immune to political change. The difference between Democrats and Republicans when it comes to labor regulations that protect workers is a party that is absolutely complacent, and one that is actively working to dismantle what few protections exist.

[clyde]

This would

 

Worth noting that unlike Uber, Lyft does let you tip at the end of a ride.

 

...and if you're in San Francisco, consider signing up for Scoot Networks instead of using Postmates. They're a pretty awesome way to run errands. And I'm not sharing a referral code, so you can trust me

 

Letting the driver be tipped just seems like a way to externalize labor-costs.

 

This Scoot thing looks interesting; not because I am anywhere near San Francisco, but because it looks like it might be a consumer-cooperative. I wonder if it is a co-op. These sharing-economy jobs could benefit greatly from being run by a worker owned co-op imo.

[tabacco]

This Scoot thing looks interesting; not because I am anywhere near San Francisco, but because it looks like it might be a consumer-cooperative. I wonder if it is a co-op. These sharing-economy jobs could benefit greatly from being run by a worker owned co-op imo.

 

It's not a co-op, sorry

[Mangela Lansbury]

Yeah, I should've said, I switched to using Lyft as an alternative! Most drivers I talk to prefer Lyft, anyway. They're just stuck using Uber, too, 'cause that's what most customers use.

 

I always check Lyft first, but I'm in a small enough market that I'm sometimes forced into using Uber because that's the only way I can get a driver. It's a bummer.

[clyde]

Unsurprisingly, I'm not the first to come up with this idea.

 

 Given that the workers already own all the capital in the form of their cars, why aren’t they collecting all the profits? Worker cooperatives are difficult to start when there’s massive capital needed up front, or when it’s necessary to coordinate a lot of different types of workers. But, as we’ve already shown, that’s not the case with Uber. In fact, if any set of companies deserves to have its rentiers euthanized, it’s those of the “sharing economy,” in which management relies heavily on the individual ownership of capital, providing only coordination and branding.

 

http://www.thenation.com/article/socialize-uber/

 

This one was also good. I like how it points out that there is a massive opportunity for cooperatives to take over this economic distruption.
http://www.geo.coop/story/cooperatives-uber-moment

[Twig]

Letting the driver be tipped just seems like a way to externalize labor-costs.

 

Oh, I completely agree. But that's, unfortunately, how America works.

 

FWIW, I think people have told me that Lyft generally pays better even WITHOUT the tip. 

 

I always check Lyft first, but I'm in a small enough market that I'm sometimes forced into using Uber because that's the only way I can get a driver. It's a bummer.

 

Yeah, that is a bummer. I've had to use Uber c few times when Lyft was being really bad. It's a very rare occurrence in Dallas, at least.

 

...

 

I look forward to the day when this is all just done with self-driving cars. (Putting a ton of people out of work in the process, weeeee.)

[Vader]

I look forward to the day when this is all just done with self-driving cars. (Putting a ton of people out of work in the process, weeeee.)

 

Yeah, but hopefully the unemployed and underemployed population becomes large enough that we can demand guaranteed minimum income 

[Twig]

That's the dream, yeah!

[Dragonfliet]

So, I may be expanding the conversation here beyond the realm of what it should be (if so, I apologize), but I did want to weigh in on a few things.

 

I don't know how postmate works, if the drivers are employees or contractors (which works out in different ways), or whatever, but I DID want to clarify that in the US, all companies ARE REQUIRED to make sure that their employees make the minimum federal wage ($7.25/hr). While this IS a separate minimum wage for tipped workers (2.13), if an employee makes less than an average of 7.25/hr for a pay period, including their declared tips, the employer is required to make up the gap in their paycheck (ie: if you worked 50 hours and made $0 in tips (you would be a terrible waiter, but whatever), instead of getting $106, like normal for people that make more than minimum wage on their tips, you would get $362 on your paycheck). 

 

Now, this doesn't mean that you should tip people who rely on tips--largely because the minimum wage is garbage and shouldn't be used as a barometer--but it is an important clarification, and also something that many people who know about the separate wage for service workers don't seem to know. 

 

I do have another thing on these topics though: Tipping is awful and we need to get rid of it. Services that don't allow tipping are far, far, far better. The actual wages of the job should be what attracts people to the job, and the fact that businesses externalize their expenses into a separate system is entirely ridiculous. This does not, in any way shape or form mean that you should stop tipping people who rely on tips (don't be an ahole), because they people rely on their tips--don't punish the people lowest on the totem pole for a messed up setup. BUT it DOES mean that for new services and new jobs, etc, that don't necessarily include tipping, please dear god, DO NOT push for it. Tipping doesn't reflect service, almost ever (something study after study shows), and it's very possible and easy for systems to work without tipping (see: somehow food industries in non-tipping countries manage to exist), but it DOES create unnecessary frustration.

[SuperBiasedMan]

Correct me if I'm wrong but independent contractors (which most of these companies use) are not subject to minimum wage laws because they're paid on a per work basis rather than by time.

[Griddlelol]

I find it really, really strange that people actively stop using a service because there's no way to tip. To me that seems like a step forward, rather than something negative. 

 

I understand that the culture is different in the US, but tipping is just the worst.

[SuperBiasedMan]

I find it really, really strange that people actively stop using a service because there's no way to tip. To me that seems like a step forward, rather than something negative. 

 

I understand that the culture is different in the US, but tipping is just the worst.

 

In this case it's more of an issue that these kinds of workers are already overworked and underpaid, so removing an avenue to make fairer prices is an unethical business practice that ought to not be supported.

[Mangela Lansbury]

So, I may be expanding the conversation here beyond the realm of what it should be (if so, I apologize), but I did want to weigh in on a few things.

I don't know how postmate works, if the drivers are employees or contractors (which works out in different ways), or whatever, but I DID want to clarify that in the US, all companies ARE REQUIRED to make sure that their employees make the minimum federal wage ($7.25/hr). While this IS a separate minimum wage for tipped workers (2.13), if an employee makes less than an average of 7.25/hr for a pay period, including their declared tips, the employer is required to make up the gap in their paycheck (ie: if you worked 50 hours and made $0 in tips (you would be a terrible waiter, but whatever), instead of getting $106, like normal for people that make more than minimum wage on their tips, you would get $362 on your paycheck).

Now, this doesn't mean that you should tip people who rely on tips--largely because the minimum wage is garbage and shouldn't be used as a barometer--but it is an important clarification, and also something that many people who know about the separate wage for service workers don't seem to know.

I do have another thing on these topics though: Tipping is awful and we need to get rid of it. Services that don't allow tipping are far, far, far better. The actual wages of the job should be what attracts people to the job, and the fact that businesses externalize their expenses into a separate system is entirely ridiculous. This does not, in any way shape or form mean that you should stop tipping people who rely on tips (don't be an ahole), because they people rely on their tips--don't punish the people lowest on the totem pole for a messed up setup. BUT it DOES mean that for new services and new jobs, etc, that don't necessarily include tipping, please dear god, DO NOT push for it. Tipping doesn't reflect service, almost ever (something study after study shows), and it's very possible and easy for systems to work without tipping (see: somehow food industries in non-tipping countries manage to exist), but it DOES create unnecessary frustration.

Independent contractors who are paid based on work done rather than by time worked are exempt from minimum wage laws. Labor laws are screwy.

[Vader]

In this case it's more of an issue that these kinds of workers are already overworked and underpaid, so removing an avenue to make fairer prices is an unethical business practice that ought to not be supported.

This. If Postmstes were to simply increase the service fee to the value of a 20-25% tip for a median value order, I would be totally ok with that and indeed see it as a step forward (so long as this portion wasn't also pegged with overhead cuts)