Episode 332: Chaos Reborn

[Rob Zacny]

Three Moves Ahead 332:

Chaos Reborn

This week Rob, Bruce, and Troy "I'm not playing unless I can summon a unicorn" Goodfellow discuss Chaos Reborn. In 1985, game designer Julian Gollop released Chaos: The Battle of Wizards for the ZX Spectrum. He would later go on to be the designer of the venerable XCOM series. Chaos Reborn is a new game in the tactical gaming space made possible by a successful Kickstarter campaign.

Chaos Reborn

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[hexgrid]

This game makes me wish for a modern reboot of Archon: The Light And The Dark.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archon:_The_Light_and_the_Dark

 

Come to think of it, a modern Archon would be a hell of an e-sport too.

[ilitarist]

It was a nice venture into the inner psychology of Rob' and Bruce's minds.

 

You forget to mention the game has a singleplayer too. Sort of campaign. With optional multiplayer invasions. And - rare thing! - it has a demo. With tutorial, some single player challenges and even some multiplayer modes. I'd say it's a rare thing to see a demo for a modern strategy game. And no, there are no microtransactions there in case you were wondering so it's an honest demo.

 

Ah, and also there's hot seat.

[SlipperyJim]

Hi all,

 

I really enjoyed this discussion!

 

Having backed the game from the start (18 months) I find it very interesting to listen to what you guys think from a new and board game focus.

 

Thanks very much for covering it!

 

I can address any specific questions you have.  

 

Also - http://www.forum.chaos-reborn.com/index.php

 

Regards,

 

SlipperyJim

Chaos Reborn Community Manager

[Vesperan]

I'm afraid all I have to say is that the game sounds interesting but not compelling. Bit of a nothing comment.

 

I have a technical query for Michael though. I download and listen to 3MA using Podcast Addict on Android. For some reason episodes over the last couple of months get to the end of the file and then just stop, and it doesn't move on to the next item in my playlist. While this is probably a Podcast Addict fault, it only happens with 3MA  (I listen to about a dozen podcasts)  and only with recent episodes. Its just a minor annoyance, but I wondering whether there was something you've changed at your end recently?

[Troy Goodfellow]

We didn't even touch on the Single Player realm quests, because you need to be at a Wizard rank to get those - and none of us are there yet.

 

But I like Chaos Reborn quite a bit.

[Michael]

I'm afraid all I have to say is that the game sounds interesting but not compelling. Bit of a nothing comment.

 

I have a technical query for Michael though. I download and listen to 3MA using Podcast Addict on Android. For some reason episodes over the last couple of months get to the end of the file and then just stop, and it doesn't move on to the next item in my playlist. While this is probably a Podcast Addict fault, it only happens with 3MA  (I listen to about a dozen podcasts)  and only with recent episodes. Its just a minor annoyance, but I wondering whether there was something you've changed at your end recently?

Hmm, interesting. There's only one thing that's changed in the last few months, and that was our switch from hosting the podcasts on Libsyn to Soundcloud back in August or September. As far as the actual files go, nothing has changed. If it does have something to do with the files being hosted somewhere else, I would try unsubscribing and then re-subscribing to the podcast feed.

[riadsala]

You said it had a-sync multiplayer? I may pick this up over the holidays for playing with friends. Is it too much to hope that it offers the same deal as Frozren Cortex/Synapse?

[Parallaxion]

Long time listener , first time I've been compelled to join the forums to comment. I WANT those roll results too!!! It increases trust and immersion, especially in a game that is such a board game. In fact part of the problem with the Space Hulk video game was that it failed to feature the roll results prominently, I remember that being discipussed on TMA or Idle Thumbs.

[ilitarist]

You said it had a-sync multiplayer? I may pick this up over the holidays for playing with friends. Is it too much to hope that it offers the same deal as Frozren Cortex/Synapse?

 

Pick it up. Even if your friends betray you we will be here.

[Sorbicol]

Pick it up. Even if your friends betray you we will be here.

Generally speaking, I'm not that much of a git to Riad. At least, most of the time

[ilitarist]

We didn't even touch on the Single Player realm quests, because you need to be at a Wizard rank to get those - and none of us are there yet.

 

But I like Chaos Reborn quite a bit.

 

I think you have to have high rank to *create* those. I'm playing single player quest right now. It's sort of King's Bounty map, but with some counter-action and smaller scale.

[murdocj]

As always, really fun to listen to.  Always love the depth of the discussion. 

 

But I have to disagree with Bruce's insistence that knowing the die roll isn't just a personal preference, it somehow provides information for playing the game.  Bruce is clearly a smarter guy than me, but in this one case he's definitely wrong.  When you have a 70% chance, you have a 70% chance.  The fact that on a previous roll, you needed the extra 20% is utterly irrelevant (assume the die rolls are pretty much random, they better be).  The liking for knowing the exact die roll is exactly the same as Rob not liking the way magic casts fail.

[hexgrid]

But I have to disagree with Bruce's insistence that knowing the die roll isn't just a personal preference, it somehow provides information for playing the game.  Bruce is clearly a smarter guy than me, but in this one case he's definitely wrong.  When you have a 70% chance, you have a 70% chance.  The fact that on a previous roll, you needed the extra 20% is utterly irrelevant (assume the die rolls are pretty much random, they better be).  The liking for knowing the exact die roll is exactly the same as Rob not liking the way magic casts fail.

 

That assumes one has an intuitive grasp of probability math, however; not everyone can look at the difference between 55% and 72% and immediately grasp whether the increased odds balance with the resource expenditure.  The odds don't change by knowing the results, but for someone who isn't intimately familiar with probability they can be a useful teaching tool *about* probability and how it meshes with resource use.  Repeated exposure to the extra information (whether the boost was successful) can help someone develop a more intuitive grasp of how the boost affected the odds, and whether it was worth it.  Think of it as the game showing its work.

[cornchip]

I agree it feels bad when you waste a whole action on a miss and I'm okay with people developing support mechanisms (viewing a random number, etc.) to deal with it.

 

I think the only long-term solution is to play a lot of games quickly so your true skill level starts to become more evident. I like when games support this. To tie into the remark near the end about showing more statistics, I'd like to see more meta-stats that highlight a player's strengths in the face of bad luck, weak areas subsidized by good luck, and so on. And I think 'illusions summoned' should be in a range (or better yet, HOMM-style groupings. Zounds...illusions.)

[murdocj]

That assumes one has an intuitive grasp of probability math, however; not everyone can look at the difference between 55% and 72% and immediately grasp whether the increased odds balance with the resource expenditure.  The odds don't change by knowing the results, but for someone who isn't intimately familiar with probability they can be a useful teaching tool *about* probability and how it meshes with resource use.  Repeated exposure to the extra information (whether the boost was successful) can help someone develop a more intuitive grasp of how the boost affected the odds, and whether it was worth it.  Think of it as the game showing its work.

 

I agree that getting that intuition about whether it's worth "taking the shot" takes time.  Certainly in XCOM it took a while before I had some feeling about whether I wanted to take that 50% shot.  I'm just not seeing how knowing the actual roll is going to help develop that intuition. 

 

I'd contrast that with knowing WHY you have a 50% chance.  For example, in XCOM where you can bring up a screen when you have an enemy targeted that shows that flanking the enemy has given you x% more chance to hit, but the enemy is above you decreasing your chance by y%, etc.  That information is pure gold.  It helps you know how you should be setting the situation on the battlefield.  I have a feeling there's a bit of confusion here between knowing what your percentage chance is, and knowing why you have that percentage.

 

Hmmm... maybe I'm wrong... it's been known to happen.

[Salacious Snake]

I'm not sure how I feel about it, but it's an interesting discussion. This is kind of a useless reply, but I wanted to give this thread a thumbs up!

[riadsala]

Generally speaking, I'm not that much of a git to Riad. At least, most of the time

 

 

True. Perhaps once you've weaned yourself of Star Wars, we can look into picking this up. One for the holidays I think

[Mygaffer]

Sounds like an interesting game. I don't know what the purpose of being shown your roll would be, either way you are taking the game's word for it that it did the math right. It could show you a roll but unless you see how it is arriving at that roll you just have to trust the math adds up.

[Vesperan]

Sorry to dig up an old thread, but I just started playing this. Well, just started trying to play this..

 

All I remember from the show was that Troy had issues with the random number generator, and wanted to see the numbers.

 

I don't want to see the numbers - I want to kill the numbers. I want to kill that random number generator. And I only have four hours of total game time under my belt!

 

I'm doing the single player campaign on Chaos Mode (I can see the new Law Mode in my future..) and it is totally infuriating to see the enemy rattle off spell after spell (and pretty damn good ones too!) while I fail 80% rolls turn after turn. For match after match.

 

It's at the point that I'm literally rage quitting the game on multiple play attempts, which is something I have never done - even back in my younger Counterstrike days!

 

So I get that its a random chance thing - thats ok, mostly. But the campaign itself actively punishes you for losing.You travel around and collect up some mercenaries (creatures you can start a battle with) and win some battles - all good. And then you lose - thats fine too. Except now there are no mercenaries for me to collect, the clock is ticking and... the enemies are getting reinforcements? And new enemies are spawning? So the game just got harder to punish my losses. Thanks a million designers, way to make want to play again.

 

So I'm off to play something else now. Will try Law Mode later, when I've forgiven the game somewhat.

[cornchip]

Everything okay here?

[Vesperan]

No not really. So I started playing Invisible Inc - which is the polar opposite given nothing at all is left to chance. And it is fantastic. One of the best games I've played in ages.

 

I do want to go back to Chaos Reborn though - I enjoyed the game (and oddly, the writing of the journals), but I'm going to have to start the campaign over again so that I can steam roll the battle I got to. That battle was/is impossible to beat it if you happen to lose it the first time, as you then start it at a two creature disadvantage, and that particular map was completely featureless (flat).

[riadsala]

So I finally picked this up in the gog sale. Only half way through the tutorial, but it seems like a really smartly designed game. The way the bluffing/illusion mechanic interacts with the %chance of casting is inspired. I look forward to getting in bit more practice then trying to multiplayer.

 

 

Also, I remember Rob (? I think ) not liking the % chance  to cast, but he's ok with % to hit? [Or something like that? It's been a while since I listened to this show]. I quite like the way the game treats chance, and I think it fits with the theme. Magic is hard to cast, but it you manage to cast ok, then it will work as intended. As opposed to magically casting a spell, but then missing with it.

 

 

 

[osmosisch]

If anyone wants a copy of the game, I got a spare one for free off backing Phoenix Point; Steam or GOG.

[riadsala]

4 hours ago, osmosisch said:

If anyone wants a copy of the game, I got a spare one for free off backing Phoenix Point; Steam or GOG.

 

 

I have a friend I'd like to gift a copy to, so we can play each other. But perhaps first wait and see if anybody more deserving asks for the code