Rob Zacny

Episode 324: Tower Defense

Recommended Posts

Three Moves Ahead 324:

787__header.jpg

Tower Defense

Rob, Sean Sands, and Troy "I play Plants vs Zombies for the lore" Goodfellow hunker down to defend their glowing orbs and talk about tower defense. The genre is still alive and well, but did it ever really die? Or has it been the Samwise Gamgee of genres: consistent, comforting, and good at gardening?

Orcs Must Die, Sanctum, Deathtrap, GemCraft, Defense Grid, Dungeon of the Endless, Prime World Defenders, Plants vs Zombies, Warcraft 3, Company of Heroes, Toy Soldiers, Dungeon Defenders 2, Fortnite

Games discussed:

Orcs Must Die 2

Sanctum

Deathtrap

GemCraft

Defense Grid 2

Dungeon of the Endless

Prime World Defenders

Plants vs Zombies 2

Warcraft 3

Company of Heroes

Toy Soldiers

Dungeon Defenders 2

Fortnite

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a thing for Tower Defence games.

 

I couldn't even finish the podcast without coming here to mention a few of my notables over the years...

 

Immortal Defense - (storied surreal vector based participatory plan and shoot-a-thon)

http://immortaldefense.com/

 

Defenders Quest - (RPG where your "towers" are developing team of adventurers!)

http://www.defendersquest.com/1/

 

Rymdkapsel - (abstract tetris based space build and defend with timed peril)

http://rymdkapsel.com/

 

Iron Brigade - (3d Mech stomp-a-thon)

http://www.ironbrigadegame.com/

 

Anomaly series (Tower offense - escort and kill)

http://www.11bitstudios.com/games/14/anomaly-2

 

Spira Defense/Void Defense [Android] - (abstract pure numbers & mechanics orbitting spiral shootdown on mobile devices)

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.craigahart.android.spiradefencepro

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.craigahart.android.voiddefencepro

 

Infested Planet (squad based tower offense)

http://www.rocketbeargames.com/infestedplanet/index.html

 

Atom Zombie Smasher (zombie quell and evac game)

http://blendogames.com/atomzombiesmasher/

 

Gratuitous Tank Battles (tanks and trenches)

http://gratuitoustankbattles.com/

 

Creeper World III (land grabbing, base building tower stemming the flow of the creep)

http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld3/cw3.php

 

Iron Grip Warlord (3d steampunk FPS, tower and base defense)

https://www.isotx.com/the-games/#www_igwarlord_com

 

Freaking Meatbags (tower defense, population genetic hybridisation and robots)

http://www.wildfactor.net/StaticPage/FreakingMeatbags/FreakingMeatbags.htm

 

I hope these gems give you a glimpse at the often esoteric edge of TD gaming. But many of them are worthwhile pursuits in their own right, and for me really take the genre past the likes of Kingdom Rush/Defense Grid style stalwarts.

 

 

What I'd like to see, is a TD game where your turrets/emplacements are moveable to react to the creeping hordes - so you can pause, plan and then run simultaneously, checking your timed movement plans. It might end up a complicated game, of patterned movements, but I imagine it to happen as a large scale military battle would where advancing the right kit to the right place and right time is crucial, and pulling them back to rest and recuperate with reinforcements plays out a complex dance of offense and defense and perhaps even supply. Maybe a little too complex for TD, but its a dream of mine. Battle of Waterloo TD. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This was such a frustrating podcast! Was there a conscious decision I missed mention of to completely ignore mobile/handheld games? Because there are a ton of tower defence games coming out and most of the things the crew were looking for from the genre are found there. Games where the towers can be damaged (the Sentinel series, Tiny Heroes, Castle Doombad). Fleshed out RPG elements with gear and stuff (Defender Chronicles and many others).. Iteration by developers over many games (Sentinel, Bloons TD, Anomaly, and more). There's an entire genre of defending-castles-against-sieges games, in 2D and 3D. 

 

Much as I love Defence Grid and Orcs Must Die and Toy Soldiers and (the original) PvZ, you can't have a meaningful discussion of the tower defence genre without looking at where most of the games are being made and played. 

 

What I'd like to see, is a TD game where your turrets/emplacements are moveable to react to the creeping hordes - so you can pause, plan and then run simultaneously, checking your timed movement plans. 

It's not quite what you're looking for, but Unstoppable Gorg has moveable emplacements. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rob came close to saying it, but anyway.

 

I think the most important thing in tower defense is this  loop of planning and executing. Your brain isn't required to work all the time, you are welcome to look at the spectacle. It's not the same as watching animations in TBS, it's a different state of mind pressing different buttons in your brain. Strategy - Action movie - Strategy.

 

Also it's very easy to learn those games and vary difficulty. The usual RTS tutorial goes like that: move mouse to edge of the screen, select unit, move it here, attack here, build a building. Now go and explore the map while watching your base resources, expanding your economy and making sure it's exploited properly, make a well-composed army to defend from enemy attacks and destroy it. TD  games are much easier to learn and skill ceiling is still well beyond anything  an average human being is capable of. 

 

And no AI is the best AI.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tower defense multiplayer is also amazing (the ones where you buy and choose what minions to send to the other guy's base).

 

Bless Wintermaul TD in all of its variations for WC3.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I never got into TD games in general, but Dungeons of the Endless really clicked with me and I think I played about two dozen hours of it.

 

What I like about that design is the push your luck element to the game. I thought the way the dust economy works was a stroke of genius. You light up rooms by using dust to prevent monsters from appearing in a particular area as you proceed to explore a new room, and you get more dust from killing monsters. So the way this works is that as you explore you get stretched thin, thus increasing your risk as you have to continue to move throughout a level with more and more unlit rooms. But the bigger the hoard of monsters gets from all those unlit rooms the more your dust economy grows, thus allowing you to light more rooms. So there is this really nice back and forth in your state of vulnerability/safety.

 

It kind of reminds me of the dynamic of the Super Puzzle Fighter games where it is when you are on the verge of losing a match that you are at your most powerful because if you manage to land the right combo suddenly you have one shotted your opponent. Too many games involve a fairly predictable linear trajectory of power. More games where there is a real swing please.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow no mention of Harvest Massive Encounter in the podcast or this thread!

 

http://store.steampowered.com/app/15400/

 

It has a lot of the elements asked for in the podcast. Your towers and production are constantly under attack as you're forced to expand to the ore across the map as you use it up.

 

It forces a lot of decisions you don't find in other tower defense games and is well received.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tower defense multiplayer is also amazing (the ones where you buy and choose what minions to send to the other guy's base).

Bless Wintermaul TD in all of its variations for WC3.

I loved wintermaul and all the other -maul variations that came out.

Edit: also I really wish there were more multiplayer tower defense games. There're things like Sanctum and Orcs must die, but I really loved wintermaul where you were on a team where different people were in different positions and they were very different. Being Orange required you to build very differently than if you were gray. On top of that the collaborative yet competetive nature of having the scores was super interesting. You'd be mad if someone's maze leaked, but if it leaked into yours you'd be happy for the extra resources you'd get from killing the creeps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was happy to see this podcast topic.  Made me finally register for the forums here to comment on it.

 

I really like the Tower Defense genre and think it has a lot of potential and room for growth how the guys do, although there is more that they haven't seen (and as Spelk linked to above there are Tower Defense games doing some different stuff out there).

 

I think personally I just really like defending an area.  Keeping an eye on one spot, maximizing coverage of things like turrets, placing walls, improving defenses as time goes on and repairing them, the frantic moments where you need to shuffle around your infantry or weapons when the enemy breaks through in one spot.   I also love "you have 5 minutes to set up defenses" type moments where you need to make educated guesses and formulate a plan.  So personally my draw is not the same math and effeciency focus as far as why I like the genre.  I think it is planning, covering an area with defenses based on different enemies, and that desperation and tension that comes with waves of enemies crashing against your walls.

 

I share the guys love for stuff like RTS defense missions and Stronghold not just being about managing a castle how it first seems is also one of my biggest dissapointments in games.  RTS games aren't made for this gameplay but they allow a freedom in it that is fantastic.  I always wished I could play Company of Heroes by totally just focusing on defense.

 

Thinking about the issues of it as part of the industry, I also feel like it is unfortunately looked at as a stepping stone genre for developers or designers instead of something that could be fleshed out to be a very complex and deep game.  I think bringing in say RPG mechanics is perfectly viable (and is innovative and exciting in other genres) but just hasn't been executed on continuisly and with enough depth.  I also personally think visually a lot of tower defense games are weak which is an issue for making the games attractive.  Even ones with budgets and talent behind them like say Defense Grid and Sanctum have very unnattractive art and setting, to me.  Few of them try to create a world or setting with any degree of seriousness like other genres do (which isn't required to make a good game, but I like games that do).  That kind of stuff could clearly be improved I think.  I am hoping Steam and how indie games can be made now, Tower Defense becomes legitmized to people and taken more seriously.

 

Anyways, been learning to program myself and after trying to find something managable for a project I settled on Tower Defense because yeah it is far more approachable to make (like the guys say)  I see how the genre could be expanded.  Time to see if I can do it myself.

 

Defenders Quest - (RPG where your "towers" are developing team of adventurers!)

http://www.defendersquest.com/1/

 

To me this is the best one they didn't mention.  It's very rough in presentation and things but I love the basic ideas it has going on.   Instead of very light levels of RPG with tower defense it goes further and I think that alone works.  There should be more games like this.

 

Acutally, they are making a sequel and as far as presentation and everything it looks vastly better (much more like Disgaea or FFT) so that is something to keep an eye on.

 

There's an entire genre of defending-castles-against-sieges games, in 2D and 3D. 

 

Could you give examples?  I haven't seen these games and I think I would really like them.  Stronghold was close but doesn't focus on the idea and has very frusterating elements.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agree with the sentiments above. Loved the episode, but was wondering why there were only really four examples were discussed (although several were mentioned as noted in OP) and all without a mention of mobile ones, and not even the mobile ones that got ported to PC (I'm thinking of you, Kingdom Rush). I know it is impossible to bring up all of the different TD games, but the platform does play a pretty big part in this particular genre, in my opinion, to not get mentioned. Tablets are just too perfect of a platform on which to play tower defense so at least a nod would have sufficed.

 

Glad spelk made a great list—would have done the same thing at midpoint of the episode if I hadn't been driving at the time.

 

All that being said, still a great episode! Really enjoy listening to these guys each week!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

... the mobile ones that got ported to PC (I'm thinking of you, Kingdom Rush)

 

Er, what the hell?  Kingdom Rush was originally an in-browser game made in Flash.  It was later ported to iOS, and then Android.  And then, even later, released as a standalone Unity port for Windows via Steam.  It was available via your flash-enabled browser on any modern desktop OS well before it was available for your pocket telephone.

 

With that said, it was also the last of the not-offensively-crappy-nor-shamelessly-cloned TD games made in Flash and released browser-first.

 

And it's the Flash TD games that I play, mostly.  Mobile after that.  I've never played a single standalone PC-executable or console TD game.  So I totally agree with all the other folks in this thread who are totally baffled by the Steam-centric bias of this episode.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, robotslave. I didn't do my homework. It was indeed a Flash game. Thanks for the correction.

Revenge of the Titans is another good one spillblood pointed out that had played around with some different mechanics and made a very fun TD that I still love to jump back into.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, okay, lots of good suggestions here that makes me think we should revisit this topic again before too long. But to address one point...

 

This was such a frustrating podcast! Was there a conscious decision I missed mention of to completely ignore mobile/handheld games? Because there are a ton of tower defence games coming out and most of the things the crew were looking for from the genre are found there. ...Much as I love Defence Grid and Orcs Must Die and Toy Soldiers and (the original) PvZ, you can't have a meaningful discussion of the tower defence genre without looking at where most of the games are being made and played. 

 

The answer is no, there was no conscious decision, but there is a pretty huge institutional blindspot on 3MA when it comes to mobile.

 

The Tower Defense topic is something I'd put on our wish list last year, when Defense Grid came out. I dusted it off a couple weeks ago because another topic ended up getting delayed with only a couple days' notice. Hence this episode was also delayed quite a bit as we scrambled to fill the slot, and dealt with Sean's busted PC.

 

So already you have a topic that's a bit less prepped than a lot of our other episodes. But then there's the fact that I do not play mobile games. That's not out of snobbery or anything. I just don't have a commute where they fill any kind of niche, and my job is all based around PC games. So that's where I look. Add to that the fact that I have a first-gen iPad and a slightly broken Samsung S3 and my mobile experience is not exactly cutting-edge.

 

We did have time to prep this. We didn't go in cold. We all recommended taking a look at different games (and I didn't even get a chance to bring up Iron Brigade during the show), but we all looked at the PC because that's just where we tend to look. Usually that's okay. This time, apparently, we were a bit like drunks searching for their keys under a streetlight. Though I still think the show was decent, even if it was nowhere near comprehensive regarding the state of the art.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I enjoyed the show, despite its popular PC based bias. But, I had to post my list, because I think TD gets a bad rep amongst strategy titles, probably because of the mobile explosion and the throwaway/monetisation of the genre. Designers cutting their teeth on a TD game, because its limited in scope. I just wanted to show that the TD mechanic is being pushed in different ways more in the Indie game sector than anywhere else, although there is always overlap with the mobile arena.3MA is primarily a PC based show, so it follows naturally that the titles looked at are from the PC. Iron Brigade is firmly in the Sanctum camp, but big stompy mechs are very satisfying. I forgot to post that wasn't Brutal Legend an RTS/TD hybrid? Then I thought well any RTS that has base defense in it could be loosely classed as a TD, and you more or less said that in the podcast. TD is basically an RTS Turtler's wet dream.

 

In the mobile arena, I have major issues with what the higher powers that be call a "Strategy game". Usually anything that involves online content and blatant monetisation/microtransactions. The TD arena on mobile is overpopulated with guff, there are several really good ones in there, but finding them is difficult and not being duped into the "same old same old" is a pursuit towards futility.

 

https://play.google.com/store/search?q=Tower+Defense&c=apps&docType=1&sp=CAFiDwoNVG93ZXIgRGVmZW5zZXoCGACKAQIIAQ%3D%3D:S:ANO1ljKHGFs

 

However, if anyone has an Android device (even an old S3 Rob) I'd like to throw down the gauntlet (a rather weak floppy cotton affair) to have a go at Spira 2 (I think you can play it for free if you can put up with ads, but it is worth a few quid/dollars). I'd particularly like to hear from Sean Sands with his TD obsession, having a go at this one - he'll probably grok it in double time.. it's all about the mechanics and the numbers and not much else. But I've yet to find the exact synergies between the towers..

 

Spira 2 [Android]

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.funqai.spira2

 

This abstract mobile Tower Defense game, might give you some balance and optimisation decisions, and hopefully will amuse you if you like to tinker with turret composition, with only 5 positions to fill.


Here are some of my initial thoughts...

The Rapid turrets are too weak, even when beefed up with damage and rate of fire.

The Chain turrets are amazing early levels, with 5 or 6 chains on them, but their damage is very poor later on level 30+

The Nuke turrets are pretty good, if you can get their damage and their % Critical values up. Their damage is expensive, but you only need it to match a 12th of what you're hitting, and get it to Crit, because a Crit (at about 30% fire rate) will trigger a 3rd of the time and will do x12 damage!

The Reaper turret is amazing, beef it up damage and %Reap chance as best you can. It's damage is expensive, but it climbs pretty drastically in numbers until much later levels 50+. Plus when it fires of a Reap it adds a +1 life to your central base. So get this firing all the way up the levels and you build health and more longevity into your base.

The Gold turret marks enemies for killing with a gold bonus. It does work but you have to get it next to something that will kill it outright quick, because the Gold mark doesn't last long.

The Plant turret is meant to trigger a boost in the power needed to fund your specials - its expensive and slow to gain power I've found.

The defensive towers I've struggled with to use effective, because none of them have much poke when hitting the enemy.

I've tried the Pusher, which shoves an enemy back out a bit, but theres usually too many enemies and it doesn't fire regularly enough, nor does it push far enough to justify the expense.

The Stopper can be effective if you pair it with a fast killer like Reaper or Nuke. Because it holds an enemy in place for a number of seconds (beefed up), and thus your heavy hitter gets a couple of chances at it. If you pair up the turrets tactics (close enemies, or fast enemies etc.).

The Slower, just slows targets 3 enemies at a time - I've always thought this one wouldn't work well... but have yet to try it out.

My best yet, is Level 73 - anyone fancy seeing how they can do and sharing any possible strategies?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also really liked the episode and think overall the thinking was right about issues with the genre even if it wasn't as comprehensive.  Though I think TD is growing and trying cool stuff too over time.  Some developers that stick with TD are doing some great stuff and there's room for the genre to keep getting better and adding depth.

 

 

 TD is basically an RTS Turtler's wet dream.

 

This describes my attraction to the genre perfectly.  RTS games are almost always discouraging turtling but TD embraces it.  When RTS do occasionally embrace defense, usually a mission or two, it's often my favorite part of that game.

 

There are reasons I like defense in games, but one is not that I like simple strategy games.  That was the label on the genre, that it was shallow.  I actually love tactical games with depth.  Just other aspects make me prefer defensive set ups.  It's cool that audience is being catered to more and more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Though I still think the show was decent, even if it was nowhere near comprehensive regarding the state of the art.

Still a great show for sure! I had actually saved this episode as you three brought up some great points about the genre that a hobbyist gamedev (and I'm sure real ones as well) would do well to revisit in the future.

Spelk again had the same thought as I had about TDs really hitting the sweet spot for RTS turtlers...TDs have turned an RTS strategy into a full-fledged game genre.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you like Tower Defense try AI War by Arcen Games.  I'm almost positive Arcen or AI War has been covered in the past but it was some time ago.  It looks like an RTS and plays like an RTS, but the game is at heart a tower defense game blown up to epic porportions.  Some people may have even tried it and attempted to play it like an RTS and hated it, but once you break it down to controlling/minimizing the AI aggression level as what you are trying to "protect" (aside from your own base/units) the mechanics and flow of the game fit right into the tower defense mindset.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A recent land on Steam, but is also out on mobile devices is the rather traditional

 

Alien Robot Monsters

http://www.kraftixgames.com/arm

 

Been playing it and its very puzzley, but quite enticing with lots of interplay between the turrets and upgrades. Lots of boom-boom, zap-zap, pew-pew-pew. Normally I see the mechanics behind these traditional TD games, and I sort of lose interest, but this one is holding my attention - so thought it worth a mention here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you like Tower Defense try AI War by Arcen Games.  I'm almost positive Arcen or AI War has been covered in the past but it was some time ago....

 

Oooh, good point, and one that I'm surprised Michael Hermes didn't already make, since he's been advocating for the show to be renamed "This Week in Arcen" for the last couple years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oooh, good point, and one that I'm surprised Michael Hermes didn't already make, since he's been advocating for the show to be renamed "This Week in Arcen" for the last couple years.

 

I just assumed you were tired of me talking about AI War by this point. Beating a dead space horse and all that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm ready for more AI War talk! Love that game! Michael did a fine job getting you guys to talk roguelikes, so I say keep the heat on, Michael!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm ready for more AI War talk! Love that game! Michael did a fine job getting you guys to talk roguelikes, so I say keep the heat on, Michael!

 

I fully plan on getting Chris Park back on the show when Stars Beyond Reach becomes available in 2016. In an odd confluence of events relative to these posts, they said they are taking a short break on SBR to work on a roguelike-ish game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ginger Yellow mentions it above - fans of tower defense games should give Unstoppable Gorg a try. Between its campy sci-fi atmosphere and rotating tower orbitals it is one of my favorite tower defense games of all time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now