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Rob Zacny

Esports Today 8/11/15: Reliving the International

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Esports Today August 11, 2015:

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Reliving The International
The International is over, but there's a lot of ground to cover in this extended post-event episode. Hosts Andrew Groen and Rob Zacny talk with Idle Thumbs' and Dota Today's Sean Vanaman about their big takeaways from the tournament. Then it's time for IEM StarCraft and another soO second-place, and a check-in with CS:GO.

Dota 2, StarCraft 2, League of Legends, CS:GO

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Loved the talk with Sean!

One thing that was really interesting that I was told was that, Shiki CDEC's player has only played Leshrac a handful of times ever (http://www.dotabuff.com/players/101375717/matches?date=&hero=leshrac&skill_bracket=&lobby_type=&game_mode=&region=&faction=&duration=&timezone=Etc%2FUTC)  

Since he had no experience with the lord, he didn't even play it the first time CDEC played it.

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Good discussion about TI, but I don't think CDEC was given their proper dues by anyone other than Sean. They played extraordinary DOTA, and despite having a disadvantage in the drafts, I thought the games were surprisingly close except for game 4 where EG just stomped.

 

Andrew said he didn't feel like CDEC were respecting Fear's Gyrocopter at all, but I don't think that's correct. All of CDEC bans were respect bans for EG players. They knew Aui's Techies and Naga were hard counters to their play style, so they prioritized banning those heroes. I'm sure they would have loved to ban Gyro or take it themselves, but you only get to ban two heroes initially, and playing VS Gyro would mean they had a shot at winning (like in game 2) whereas playing against Naga made that chance remote, and against Techies their chances were non-existent. They won against Aui's Naga in game 2 of the upper bracket finals, but PPD made sure they weren't allowed to have heroes that would allow CDEC to recreate those conditions. Note how PPD consistently banned the Bounty Hunter, and Dark Seer or Tusk every game.

 

As jennegatron pointed out, CDEC's mid player wasn't really much of a Leshrac player which is another interesting thing about them, that they went so far without really playing a bunch of  heroes that are considered OP this patch. But they also knew they couldn't give the Leshrac to Sumail. Andrew claimed that perhaps Leshrac wasn't that scary, but I think it has more to do with the fact that he's a terrifying hero in the right hands. The changes made to Leshrac made in 6.84 mean that after Leshrac picks up his blooodstone he can farm faster than any other hero in DOTA. That's exactly the type of hero you don't want to give to Sumail, who can farm a bloodstone in under 15 minutes. We saw this play out when EG played against LGD. LGD gave away the Leshrac pick, and it wasn't pretty.

 

CDEC tried a few different approaches to running an OP hero that their mid player couldn't really play. First they ran Leshrac as a support. Leshrac is a perfectly respectable support in a sense, but he isn't terrifying since he will never have enough farm to pick up a bloodstone. In game 2 they pulled a brilliant switch and ran a surprise Broodmother pick mid, and ran their Leshrac as a carry. That worked out great, but of course it was a one time event, ppd was sure to ban the Brood in the 2nd round of bans in subsequent games. Finally they tried Leshrac mid in game 3, but having a mid player playing a hero they're relatively unfamiliar with against Sumail was predictably miserable. Finally in game 4 they banned Leshrac instead of Naga, and that proved to be their worst match.

 

Ppd is an excellent drafter, but I think sometimes people take that too far talking about how much of a genius he is. He has an important advantage in how many heroes his teammates can play extraordinarily well. This was mentioned by Sean, saying how unlike other teams ppd just picks whatever for his teammates. Well, you only get to do that when you know your team can play those heroes! That gives EG a serious edge when it comes to drafting.

 

But I would say CDEC only got moderately outdrafted. The real problem was EG had just figured out how to deal with those smoke ganks. And they were able to do that because they consistently won the warding and counter-warding game against CDEC which I don't think I saw any other team really pull off against them. It's such a simple and unflashy thing, but wards and vision really do win DOTA.

 

Anyway, great episode, just thought I would offer my own perspective about the grand finals!

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Shiki obviously isn't a lesh player.  He is the most broken mid hero in the tournament and game 1 of the grand finals they played support leshrac.  When it didn't work, they made Shiki play it and Suma1l just crushed him in lane every game.  This was the crux of the severe outdrafting that happened.  They were forced to use their first pick on a lane they would lose and give up a top tier hero (gyro) that fear played really well.

 

On the question of heroes coming up a lot, I thought a lot of it had to do with versatile heroes.  So teams liked to third pick Earthshaker because he is a top tier offlaner and support.  QoP was picked a lot since she can play all 3 lanes.  Lina can be a mid or a support.  Tusk can play 4 position or offlane.  In my opinion, many of the common heroes were played in many roles.  So the heroes coming up over and over again didn't actually mean the play style and positions were repetitive.

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But I would say CDEC only got moderately outdrafted. The real problem was EG had just figured out how to deal with those smoke ganks. And they were able to do that because they consistently won the warding and counter-warding game against CDEC which I don't think I saw any other team really pull off against them. It's such a simple and unflashy thing, but wards and vision really do win DOTA.

I completely disagree with this.  In most of those games, EG had drafted stronger lanes with better initiation and counter initiation.  In every game, CDEC only had one way to win.  Their ganks had to work and Agressif had to get a lot of farm because they were losing 2 lanes every game.  In fact, one of the main ways they figured out the smoke ganks was with their draft.  They just picked great counter-initiators like clockwerk, gyro, storm, Naga, and ember.  On the other side, CDEC were getting heroes they weren't comfortable with or didn't have a great way to end the game.  For example, even if things went better for them in that slark game, how were they going to end the game going high ground into a clock, gyro, ember with a leshrac slark?

 

Those were massive outdrafts.  For sure.  If you can draft lanes where you get everything you wants, make the other team play heroes they don't like, and counter their play-style that is an outdraft.

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I love Dota so much. The mind games between captains in the draft are fascinating. I've spent thousands of hours on that game, and I feel like I've only scratched the surface of what there is to know and learn. 

 

All I know for sure is that this was a fantastic tournament. Possibly the most fun I've ever had with a week of esports. 

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Any chance you all might cover a bit of Melee?  It's the only game I dabble in as a viewer you all haven't touched on yet.  I don't know if either of you follow it at all.

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So FGC coverage in general will probably a bit more sporadic on this show than we would like. Andrew and I are foremost SC2 fans, then we each have our respective Lords Managements that we're into. Then for our third areas Andrew skews more FGC and I skew more CSGO.

 

So the answer is yes, but it's something that we'll probably have to grow-into. Also, just in terms of timing, it's tough because we just missed EVO. We've had TI. Now all the final SC2 seasons are getting underway. LoL is ramping up to to Worlds. And IEM Cologne is kind of a big deal, I think. So it's a tough slate, and I'm not sure there's a TON happening in Smash right now post EVO. But don't be afraid to message us on Twitter or email if something big is upcoming that you worry we'll miss.

 

We will also make an effort to find people who DO know what they're talking about when it comes to the areas we're less confident in.

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Sounds good.  I think SC2 and LoL and Dota2 is a lot already.  Especially with interspersed CS:GO.  I keep telling myself I'll try LoL at some point, but I do.  So, my understanding of the game is very stilted since I only know what Dota2 players say about it; and let's be honest, Dota2 fans have a serious little brother complex with league. 

 

On a side note, it was cool to have Sean on the podcast as the resident Dota guy on idle thumbs. 

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If you liked theorizing why ppd did what he did: 

here he explicitly talks about what he was thinking. I love these draft analyses. 

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Oooh, really excited to watch that, jennegatron. Thanks for embedding that.

 

And yeah, we'll definitely do FGC stuff at some point. I wouldn't be surprised if it became relatively regular once we get outside of the summer and fall months which are usually the biggest for the traditional esports. I personally love Smash, and I have a working relationship with Prog, one of Melee's most prominent casters (and a great dude who cares about making the game accessible to the non-hardcore). I've interviewed him a few times, and I'd be excited to get him on the show to talk Melee.

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Prog is the best.  I think he is the first person I ever heard commentate in Melee.  For those who don't know him, watch this video and you'll like him:

 

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Sounds good.  I think SC2 and LoL and Dota2 is a lot already.  Especially with interspersed CS:GO.  I keep telling myself I'll try LoL at some point, but I do.  So, my understanding of the game is very stilted since I only know what Dota2 players say about it; and let's be honest, Dota2 fans have a serious little brother complex with league. 

 

On a side note, it was cool to have Sean on the podcast as the resident Dota guy on idle thumbs. 

 

I feel similarly about Dota, for very similar reasons. I think both LoL and DOTA can inform your knowledge of each other very well. Some of the lords look awfully similar. But dammit, I already had to learn 120 LoL Lords. Relearning a second whole set of lords with new physics, mechanics, and items is just...

 

I had a day at home yesterday where I had some free time, and told myself there were a couple of champions in Legal Legends I wanted to play. I ended up playing 2 games of ARAM because the time commitment to put in 90 minutes and think about warding and build paths and whatever didn't feel like it was there. Now multiply that for 90 hours and that's DOTA to me. I often wonder if the cost of learning the game is higher than for a new player because there are so many unconscious things I have to unlearn. I bet that's not true, but I think about it.

 

I'm glad you, Rob and Andrew, are into SC2, because that helps me know when the hell things are happening. That's the hardest part about following it is knowing when and what's happening. (I know what a 6-pool is! It's when you build a spawning pool as Zerg when you only have 6 workers. It's a do-or-die rush move designed to end the game quickly by catching your opponent off guard as they build their economy thinking they're safe.)

 

BTW I want to touch on the use of the word "meta". Why is that a slimy word? I guess you could say meta-game all the way out rather than abreve-ing. But the fact that you understand the concept of a metagame means you DO know what you're talking about. It's like talking about zone blitzing in football, or saying your soccer team runs a 4-4-2. Triangle offense. You might not be able to speak to the intricacies of what goes into the formulation of those things or all the depth that a professional or analyst requires, but you're not a professional! I think it's a natural progression of fandom to want to dig into the details of what makes something tick.

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Tackling the concept of what "meta-game" means could be a good show discussion topic. You hear it constantly, but it doesn't really have one exact definition.

 

As for learning Dota, I understand the trepidation. I played LoL for a year before transitioning to Dota. I've found Dota to be a far more complex and convoluted game than LoL, but that intricacy is what I enjoy about it. Rather than a set of rigid mechanics, it's more like the Lords Management equivalent of Spelunky: a series of interlocking mechanics that often converge in unforeseen ways. The mechanics can be manipulated in a way that you can't in most online games which allows you to do some pretty weird and fun stuff. Playing Dota is like being part of a scientific team that is still discovering what is possible. I've played almost 2000 hours, and I literally still learn something new about the game every time I play a match. I think of it more as a hobby (the way someone might practice their Tennis game) than as a video game for entertainment.

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I made the switch pretty completely from LoL to Dota 2 within the span of a month, which is a not insignificant amount of time to a layman, but when I have 3000+ hours in Dota 2 at this point... is actually pretty insignificant.

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I put this in the Dota thread but it relevant to this ep as well

The amount of trust ppd has in his team mates is remarkable.

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Dunno if anyone here has seen this but I thought it was pretty cool. ppd goes over his drafting strategies for the TI5 grand finals.

 

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Andrew and Twig, I've played a little bit of DOTA (counting hours in the dozens, basically insignificant), but I've been playing League since 2011. There's no hours counter, but I would have to estimate I'm at at LEAST 2000 hours with it. So I'm at the opposite end. I realize that the biggest barrier to me playing Dota is me. I just... don't really want to. I've put a lot of time and a reasonable amount of money into League of Legends, and I really like it. I'm comfortable with how things work and how I work. It'd be like switching my fandom to the CFL from the NFL. Everything is still the same, it's just different and I'm comfortable.

 

Rather than a set of rigid mechanics, it's more like the Lords Management equivalent of Spelunky: a series of interlocking mechanics that often converge in unforeseen ways. The mechanics can be manipulated in a way that you can't in most online games which allows you to do some pretty weird and fun stuff.

 

Here's the cool part - everything you said about DOTA is true about League, but applied differently. They both have all those things, all the time, forever. I've found that at a general level, League's complexity manifests on a more strategic, objective focused level than DOTA, where tactical and mechanical complexity have a nearly unlimited skill cap.

 

 

e: oh hey, thought this was cool. PPD did an in-depth video on his drafting strategy against CDEC.

 

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Andrew and Twig, I've played a little bit of DOTA (counting hours in the dozens, basically insignificant), but I've been playing League since 2011. There's no hours counter, but I would have to estimate I'm at at LEAST 2000 hours with it. So I'm at the opposite end. I realize that the biggest barrier to me playing Dota is me. I just... don't really want to. I've put a lot of time and a reasonable amount of money into League of Legends, and I really like it. I'm comfortable with how things work and how I work. It'd be like switching my fandom to the CFL from the NFL. Everything is still the same, it's just different and I'm comfortable.

Yeah I was trying to avoid going into any gameplay details because the last thing I want is another LoL vs Dota argument on the internet, but I played League for a long time before I made the transition to Dota. I'd also say that making the transition to Dota is more about adding information than it is about changing information, if that makes sense. Like there's very little League does that Dota doesn't do (biggest being summoner spells, runes, etc.), whereas there's a lot a lot a lot Dota does that League doesn't do. Unless things have changed considerably since I stopped caring about League. U:

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What is even happening?

 

 

Tackling the concept of what "meta-game" means could be a good show discussion topic. You hear it constantly, but it doesn't really have one exact definition.

 

As for learning Dota, I understand the trepidation. I played LoL for a year before transitioning to Dota. I've found Dota to be a far more complex and convoluted game than LoL, but that intricacy is what I enjoy about it. Rather than a set of rigid mechanics, it's more like the Lords Management equivalent of Spelunky: a series of interlocking mechanics that often converge in unforeseen ways. The mechanics can be manipulated in a way that you can't in most online games which allows you to do some pretty weird and fun stuff. Playing Dota is like being part of a scientific team that is still discovering what is possible. I've played almost 2000 hours, and I literally still learn something new about the game every time I play a match. I think of it more as a hobby (the way someone might practice their Tennis game) than as a video game for entertainment.

 

I like the way you put this about learning DOTA. If you aren't enjoying yourself in the learning and self-improvement process I can't imagine sticking with DOTA.

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*facepalm

I deserve this for not hitting refresh before hitting submit

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Whoa Jen that's so cool, thanks for sharing! :D

 

Yeah I was trying to avoid going into any gameplay details because the last thing I want is another LoL vs Dota argument on the internet, but I played League for a long time before I made the transition to Dota. I'd also say that making the transition to Dota is more about adding information than it is about changing information, if that makes sense. Like there's very little League does that Dota doesn't do (biggest being summoner spells, runes, etc.), whereas there's a lot a lot a lot Dota does that League doesn't do. Unless things have changed considerably since I stopped caring about League. U:

 

Haha, the simple answer is "Yes, so many things have changed." League is so different from where it was 4 years ago when I started. They've remade the jungle a dozen times, dragon and baron are different, towers act differently, so many items are different and new, new champions have added a lot more layers of mechanical complexity than the original run, they literally remade the map. But things are still the same, too! Small example - the way the jungle camps work. Buffs, jungle monster buffs, dragon and baron are things that really don't exist in DOTA with the obvious exception of Roshan dropping the Aegis, which is a wildly different strategic objective in its own right. Jungling is a completely different animal in League than it is in DOTA, and that cuts both ways (camp stacking, creep blocking, etc, etc). Watching TI, jungling as a role doesn't really exist at the professional level in DOTA at the moment. It's more a team function of how to eke out all the gold and exp on the map when it's convenient.

 

I'm completely uninterested in having an argument about League and Dota. I am very invested in having a discussion about the comparisons between the two in an environment where I know an intelligent conversation could actually exist. I watched every second of finals, and I watched most of Saturday's matches. I'm not interested in fighting about DOTA. Dota's cool, yo. League, also cool.

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If Team Secret had gone farther you might have seen some more jungling roles. Puppey plays most of the heroes that can act as a dedicated jungler. But you're right, it is much more rare to see a dedicated jungler in DOTA compared to LoL. That's because there's more gold to be earned in lane compared to in the jungle, so it's typically more efficient to have a support player stack camps and have the players farm the area up at a later time (if you have a hero that can farm stacked ancient camps that is especially valuable). When players do start farming the jungle a lot, it is often out of a desire to not reveal their location on the minimap.

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