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The International 5 (TI5) - Dota 2

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So, TI nitpick - I kept waiting for replays and detailed analysis and breakdown of plays and I never got it. You ask an extremely buzzed, tired man what he thinks of how people have named the play, but you aren't showing me the play while you're at it? Literal game defining, tournament winning moment has been identified (in the moment, by the live team!) and you only show it once before you go off air? Valve has a lot of really good presentation, and in general I like the casters, but that's such a missed opportunity.

 

As such, I will make you be my stand-in analysts and ask where the 3rd source of damage is coming from? The slam and the ice blast hit, but then the middle two guys just pop and I'm not sure why.

At least the end of TI5 was a lot better than the end of TI4. Watching the stream, I was kinda into Deadmouse (or however you spell it) and it felt like a pretty nifty send-off. Last year they pretty much held up the Aegis cheered, and then said goodbye. I still think they have a lot of work to do though. I'd love something like the super bowl where they have an honest to god presentation ceremony, and then local news comes on for an hour and reviews the whole final or something.

I can fix that for you!

 

Purge and ODPixel were also casting the game, in the newbie channel.  Their coverage of the The Play will make you forget Tobi's tepid reaction:

 

http://www.twitch.tv/dota2ti_newcomer/v/10164406?t=8h41m00s

Dang it, I missed so much of the Newcomer stream. On the first day, it was advertised on Dota2.com/watch and I watched it, then it disappeared and I couldn't find it anywhere. I found out on Friday that they renamed the twitch channel dota2ti_newcomer instead of noob, but I wouldn't know that because, with all the options, going directly to Twitch is the place I least want to watch the stream. I'm so angry at the way they relegated the newcomer stream after it was such a pleasure last year.

Now I've got to decide if I want to go back and watch the Newcomer finals stream, or if I've just had enough of Dota2 for another year.

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Did anyone else find the "U-S-A" chanting a little weird? 'Cause I did. I'm all for chanting for teams, but chanting for countries feels disingenuous to me. Especially when nobody was yelling "SOUTH KOREA! SOUTH KOREA!" or whatever else. "MVP! MVP!"

 

Not that the crowd had any problem rooting for other teams or anything, but geez the team was Evil Geniuses, not "Team USA". (Of course, EG did hand out little US flags with the stars replaced with the EG logo, so I guess that didn't help. But, given past tournaments, I know it would've happened anyway.)

 

I'm probably weird I guess.

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Did anyone else find the "U-S-A" chanting a little weird? 'Cause I did. I'm all for chanting for teams, but chanting for countries feels disingenuous to me. Especially when nobody was "CHINA! CHINA!" or whatever else.

 

Not that the crowd had any problem rooting for other teams or anything, but geez the team was Evil Geniuses, not "Team USA". (Of course, EG did hand out little US flags with the stars replaced with the EG logo, so I guess that didn't help. But, given past tournaments, I know it would've happened anyway.)

 

I'm probably weird I guess.

 

As someone at Key Arena, yeah, I definitely could not get behind the USA chants. And before people claim that it was ironic (I've seen a lot of people claim that), my observation is that plenty of EG fans looked like frat bro dawgs. If it was all an ironic pose it sure fooled me! As such, as much as I enjoy watching EG play, and I like most of the players, I will never be able to root for them.

 

That being said, there were sections of the crowd waving Chinese flags, so the patriotism cut the other way too (they would chant the names of the teams though).

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Back in SC2: Wings of Liberty, people would chant U-S-A at live events for any non korean player, mostly Europeans. I'm convinced this was still meant to be ironic despite the fact that it's a team of 3 USA players, a canadian and a Pakistan immigrant to the USA.

 

This and DAC is the first time I remember an american (NA/USA/SA) player/team winning anything big.

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EG is a US-based organization, right? They're seen as an American team. I can't imagine the chant's original intent is irony in the slightest.

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As someone at Key Arena, yeah, I definitely could not get behind the USA chants. And before people claim that it was ironic (I've seen a lot of people claim that), my observation is that plenty of EG fans looked like frat bro dawgs. If it was all an ironic pose it sure fooled me! As such, as much as I enjoy watching EG play, and I like most of the players, I will never be able to root for them.

 

That being said, there were sections of the crowd waving Chinese flags, so the patriotism cut the other way too (they would chant the names of the teams though).

Yeah I was there, too, and, yeah, holy shit the EG fans. The way they dressed, the way they talked, it was incredible. Like I was at a real sporting event! That said, there was a group of hardcore EG fans in front of me for every game, and they repeatedly tried to start EG chants even over the oppressive USA chants, so those guys and girls were cool!

 

That said, Badfinger, there has definitely historically been ironic USA chants at TI (and, as Jutranjo points out, other places). Most notably when Na'Vi won, it was USA USA everywhere. I found it sort of amusing, as that was my first time encountering the joke. But then it never stopped happening... I don't think it was meant to be ironic when it came to EG, though.

 

I was going to mention SumaiL (the Pakistani on EG), but he apparently has a green card and fully identifies as an American, so I decided not to bring it up. The Canadian fellow (Aui_2000), however, yeah. Maybe he was a bit put off? Hell, maybe SumaiL was anyway. It's something I'd be interested to know, as, like I said, I really didn't like it.

 

To be clear, it's not that I'm against patriotism, it just felt like... Meh. I could do without it at this sporting event where people from all over the world play against and with each other.

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I mean, Americans love to chant about America. (The United States of. I know that America refers to the whole shebang, but United Statesians is honestly the worst)

ppd does have a twitch emote that's a US flag. I think an entire enculturation process that tells as that the USA is the best is hard to shake, if you want to, and most people don't know why you would want to stop thinking that USA #1. It's why we care about only the world cup and like the olympics. We want to show that the US is best at all things, so even if there's a Canadian on EG, we are like, ehhh 4/5 players living in the US is close enough. Canada is viewed as a non-threatening little sibling, so that Aui_2000's presence doesn't disrupt our view of EG as an American team.

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That said, Badfinger, there has definitely historically been ironic USA chants at TI (and, as Jutranjo points out, other places). Most notably when Na'Vi won, it was USA USA everywhere. I found it sort of amusing, as that was my first time encountering the joke. But then it never stopped happening... I don't think it was meant to be ironic when it came to EG, though.

 

I was going to mention SumaiL (the Pakistani on EG), but he apparently has a green card and fully identifies as an American, so I decided not to bring it up. The Canadian fellow (Aui_2000), however, yeah. Maybe he was a bit put off? Hell, maybe SumaiL was anyway. It's something I'd be interested to know, as, like I said, I really didn't like it.

 

Ah, gotcha. I'm learning! So from your informed standpoint, chanting "USA" when Na'Vi won something was irony and not ignorance? Because, they're such fan favorites and so popular, I could imagine people literally don't know they're not American.

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Yes, I believe that it was intentional irony in that case.

 

Also yeah I know America is great and the greatest and greater than everyone else and damnit we're so great! But I've never liked it. I never bought into the school spirit thing either so I guess I'm just bad at taking pride in my surroundings just because they happen to be where I exist.

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I'm pretty sure the USA chants in this case are about the excitement over the first ever American team to win TI.  4 of the 5 players are American.  The organization is American.  I know that in someways banal nationalism can be subtly harmful, but in general I don't think the excitement was misplaced in this case.  I know that EG takes pride in being a north American organization (they were passing out EG American flags) and I know many of the players do too (ppd has flag emotes on his twitch).  I think they take pride in the NA dota scene and have done a lot to build it.  Fear has been around forever and mentored most American players of notoriety.  PPD has funded the NEL prize pool in the past.  Universe helped scout and assemble the best talent in America (and is largely responsible for the current EG roster).  I think it's fine, fitting even, to celebrate them by chanting USA because these are people that have been pretty invested in the American scene themselves.

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Yeah I was there, too, and, yeah, holy shit the EG fans. The way they dressed, the way they talked, it was incredible. Like I was at a real sporting event! That said, there was a group of hardcore EG fans in front of me for every game, and they repeatedly tried to start EG chants even over the oppressive USA chants, so those guys and girls were cool!

 

That said, Badfinger, there has definitely historically been ironic USA chants at TI (and, as Jutranjo points out, other places). Most notably when Na'Vi won, it was USA USA everywhere. I found it sort of amusing, as that was my first time encountering the joke. But then it never stopped happening... I don't think it was meant to be ironic when it came to EG, though.

 

I was going to mention SumaiL (the Pakistani on EG), but he apparently has a green card and fully identifies as an American, so I decided not to bring it up. The Canadian fellow (Aui_2000), however, yeah. Maybe he was a bit put off? Hell, maybe SumaiL was anyway. It's something I'd be interested to know, as, like I said, I really didn't like it.

 

To be clear, it's not that I'm against patriotism, it just felt like... Meh. I could do without it at this sporting event where people from all over the world play against and with each other.

SumaiL's bio on the hype videos said United States, so United States it is as far as I'm concerned.

There is definite excitement when a non-asian team gets up there in Dota, because of the dominance that they have shown in the sport so far, combined with the fact that their play style is noticeably different. Regardless, I'm still not a fan of the USA chants. The only thing that made it work for me was the equal number of chants for CDEC as well as the comments about the Wall of China from the commentators (which I suppose is nationalist in a different way, but at least positive.)

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SumaiL's bio on the hype videos said United States, so United States it is as far as I'm concerned.

There is definite excitement when a non-asian team gets up there in Dota, because of the dominance that they have shown in the sport so far, combined with the fact that their play style is noticeably different. Regardless, I'm still not a fan of the USA chants. The only thing that made it work for me was the equal number of chants for CDEC as well as the comments about the Wall of China from the commentators (which I suppose is nationalist in a different way, but at least positive.)

 

The EHOME chants gave me chills.  As the most storied organization in dota history, to see them back and hear the chants on the main stage was a big deal.  After that, the legendary EHOME coach/manager 71 gave an interview in which he began to cry as he talked about how meaningful it was to him to hear the EHOME chants again after years.

 

Here is the video of it (with some pretty great ROTK footage at the beginning):

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTMwMTc5MTkyOA==.html

 

Here is someone's translation:

 

“It’s been almost three years. I don’t know what this means to other people, but to me, this is everything. We’ve gone through so many things: defeats, troubles, rebuilding, replacement of players, doubts, awful perfomances, and we’re here today. I almost cried when I was watching fans shouting through the TV screen. I don’t know if everybody watching this interview feels the same. We met so many negative things and hard times through all these years, but I know it’s all worth it after hearing the support of our fans.”

 

I really thought it was great how the crowd got behind the chinese teams at this TI.  I think their play styles were obviously better than last year which helped.  Also, the fact that the Chinese teams were actually underdogs frequently made it fun to root for many of the teams. 

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Me too. Although without the super charismatic March, they will have a different image for me. As I said in the esports podcast topic, it's the players I follow and love. I'm already sad that the year after I fell in love with March, he'll be gone. What a beautiful, hopeful man he is.

Also agreed about ehome. <3 rOtk

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It's mostly just weird how he tweets it out from his professional join dota twitter account.  It'd be like if Troy Aikman tweeted out the cover of Debby Does Dallas every week.

As a listener and fan of Howard Stern I am just sitting here with my "so what?" face. Being samey bland to be safe and 'professional' doesn't make anyone distinguished from one another. If a guy chooses to have part of his professional persona be, "Gosh I love boobs," I could really give a fuck. In a way it's almost more honest. There's too much of a stigma about people enjoying sexual things these days. Which is a separate topic but still.

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As a listener and fan of Howard Stern I am just sitting here with my "so what?" face. Being samey bland to be safe and 'professional' doesn't make anyone distinguished from one another. If a guy chooses to have part of his professional persona be, "Gosh I love boobs," I could really give a fuck. In a way it's almost more honest. There's too much of a stigma about people enjoying sexual things these days. Which is a separate topic but still.

 

I think it's important to put it in context as occurring within a community that is particularly toxic to women though. Like I don't care what Tobi jerks it to, but by actively commenting on cosplayers as a visible professional member of the Dota/esports community, what message is he sending? Is he saying that it's okay to make lewd comments about women you see dressed up at tournaments? Is that really behavior that should be encouraged?

I think as a culture we're both too comfortable with objectifying women and too conservative when speaking about consensual sexual activities. When you expose semi-anonymous cosplaying women to your 135 thousand twitter followers, is that really fair?

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I was going to continue on that discussion but it's probably best served by a separate thread elsewhere.

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PPD posted an in depth analysis of EG's drafting during the TI finals. 

 

 

Interesting stuff

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