Fashion

[Badfinger]

Yeah, and that's the problem.

 

The point I'm trying to make and doing a very poor job is that even if we got people to agree that "fashion" isn't important, you can't make people not care about physical appearances, full stop. They are still going to gravitate towards the person on whom the formless sack looks best.

[Twig]

I understand your point, and I know it to be true, but that doesn't make it good. I also know it'll never not be true. But that doesn't make it good! Judging people based on the way they look is bullshit.

 

Though then there are people who intentionally just wear pajamas to class in college, despite having better options, and I judge them poorly, so I guess I'm a hypocrite.

[feelthedarkness]

I'm working on a post about my particular interests, but what if you try thinking about it as a creative expression? a kind of art? (there are a lot of designers literally making art, Rei Kawakubo of CDG comes to mind (some are literally barely wearable sculptures)) a thing you make, whether physically or by combining things. Do you feel the same opposition to graphic design, or interior decoration?  

 

every culture has decorated themselves since the dawn of time. it's fine if that's not where your interests are, but it's not just like buying the right suit. 

[Coods]

So, does anyone have any favorite things to wear? I've been rocking these shoes (sort of an approximation, I can't find an actual picture) for 2 years now. 

[dibs]

Oh they are tasty. I had a pair very like them, but i'm pretty hard on shoes so they never last long:/

[Bjorn]

Fashion, what you wear, is also just another form of communication.  I really don't understand the overall hostility to it.  Of course there are all sorts of shitty elements to fashion, but the same is true of written, visual, and audio communication as well. It seems like the shitty elements of fashion are usually used to try and torpedo any interest in it at all in a way that isn't usually done with other things.

 

Anyways:

 

 

So, does anyone have any favorite things to wear? I've been rocking these shoes (sort of an approximation, I can't find an actual picture) for 2 years now. 

 

A few years ago my wife got me a set of Allen Edmond wingtips, which are easily my favorite pair of shoes ever.  Also, buying high end shoes on eBay is the best.  Once you are familiar with a specific brand and what size you need, you can buy with a pretty high degree of certainty that they'll fit.  Well made shoes last for years if not decades, so they won't fall apart anytime soon. 

 

[Twig]

It seems like people are repeatedly conflating hostility targeted at others mocking/judging for "poor fashion sense" with hostility targeted at people into fashion in general. The former is what's actually happening in here, as far as I can tell, and the latter is dumb because everyone's into different things. Maybe I'm just misreading all the "I don't understand the hostility" statements, and everyone's just speaking in broad terms, but I don't think I am?

[clyde]

Is Guy Fieri really a douche though? I like that he goes to all these owner-operated restaurants, talks about how interesting the food is, seems sincerely interested in unique workflows that are developed by workers rather than by some corporate policy that is trying to eatablish centralized consistency, and just generally demonstrates an appreciation of diversity. He does say "off the hook" more than I am personally comfortable with though.

[Zeusthecat]

This thread reminds me of a mainstream news site comment thread talking about domestic violence. That's how bad this thread is. There are a couple of people who are trying, but the majority of the participants are completely ill-equipped to have this kind of conversation, have no interest in developing those skills, and are willing to say it loudly and with hostility to everyone else.

 

Fashion, what you wear, is also just another form of communication.  I really don't understand the overall hostility to it.  Of course there are all sorts of shitty elements to fashion, but the same is true of written, visual, and audio communication as well. It seems like the shitty elements of fashion are usually used to try and torpedo any interest in it at all in a way that isn't usually done with other things.

 

I re-skimmed the comments in this thread and I really don't think any of us are being hostile towards the concept of fashion. I and others have stated multiple times that people wearing what they want to wear to express themselves the way they want is fine. We all clearly participate in this and choose the fashions that suit us best, even when we don't give a shit.

 

The hostility I have is directed at a lot of the culture surrounding fashion and the way it fosters this judgmental attitude towards others. It should be pretty clear at this point that that's been the point of contention. And what the fuck does it even mean to be ill-equipped to have this conversation? 

[Bjorn]

I re-skimmed the comments in this thread and I really don't think any of us are being hostile towards the concept of fashion. I and others have stated multiple times that people wearing what they want to wear to express themselves the way they want is fine. We all clearly participate in this and choose the fashions that suit us best, even when we don't give a shit.

 

The hostility I have is directed at a lot of the culture surrounding fashion and the way it fosters this judgmental attitude towards others. It should be pretty clear at this point that that's been the point of contention. And what the fuck does it even mean to be ill-equipped to have this conversation?

 

You yourself said you have a disdain for importance people put on fashion (because of your personal history, which I both understand and sympathize with):

 

 

We lived below the poverty line during the majority of my childhood and most of my clothes came from second hand stores so I just have a natural disdain for the importance people place on fashion. I don't really like the notion that it is necessarily "important" in any way because it isn't something that everyone necessarily has a lot of control over.

 

That disdain has come through several of the comments, to me.  And not just from you. 

 

 

How do you judge people then?  I have to think you do, because we all do.  Our brains are hardwired, both naturally and through our cultures, to make judgements about other people constantly, both positive and negative.  What you wear communicates all sorts of things.  Is this person showing good judgement by what they've worn in this situation?  What are they trying to communicate?

 

I don't think people should be mocked for what they wear, but going back to the origin of this thread, the whole E3 thing, I'm not convinced that was exactly what was going on with those articles.  If a publisher had a big event where the stage was an absolute disaster, full of dumb, crass things that felt out of place, I doubt anyone in this thread would have a problem with criticizing that or even mocking it (mocking the sets of E3 has certainly been a pasttime in gaming before).  Even though you would be literally mocking the visual presentation someone put together, exactly the same way someone puts together an outfit.  What people wear at an event like E3 does not equal judging someone for what they wear day-to-day.  People have taken what is a legitimate professional critique and made it about personal affront.  It comes down to the two questions I asked above.  At an event like E3, what kind of judgement was being shown by the people who dressed the presenters (since I doubt all of them dressed themselves with how obsessive PR is in video games)?  What were they trying to communicate?  In mocking the dress of people at E3, it's those questions that are being addressed, even if it was crude and ham fisted.  I would have appreciated some more nuanced pieces on the fashion of E3, but I'm not going to completely disregard what was written, because I do think there's an interesting kernel of thought there. 

[feelthedarkness]

Onto fashion! Long, likely regretable post incoming! I'm getting older so I'm definitely way past the point of caring beyond "I want to feel cool" and a general appreciation of the weird. 

 

I have two primary hobby/interests: punk records and video games. Looking back on my youth I wish I spent more time dressing classically punk, whether it was 70s New York boho vibe, or classic charged style.

 

My musical interest became recursive enough where old Japanese punk 80s-90s became a particular thing, and they also had some of the coolest/most intense looks. I love the style as a DIY creative expression and kind of armor.  The Stalin   Sakevi of GISM   GISM    Kawakami of Disclose    Confuse   Katsuta from Tetsu Arrey (Iron Dumbell. great name)

 

That led me to find out some punks that crossed, particularly the labels UNDERCOVER (Jun Takahasi) and Julius (Tatsuo Horikawa). One of those clicking moments was seeing the Undercoverism 86 jeans, which became super collectable. Modeled by a pal. (fun fact: he found them for $75 and sold them for like $500)

 

The other thing that cemented it for me was reading William Gibson's Zero History. I love WG, his cyberpunk stuff, and that whole vibe. For an older dude, he gets what I think is cool. Maybe that's just me being old. As I was getting into a kind of "secret labels" he drops a book basically about secret labels, which managed to just predate the explosion of certain labels and secret stores. (though not in the book, Paul Harnden is my favorite example of a "secret" label. It looks like 1920s chimney sweep wear. No marketing, won't let his stuff be listed online, only sells to a handful of shops, and they don't even get to do proper buys. they can request, but then he ships them a box of stuff)

 

I'm really into stark/minimal raw stuff, particular the work of Boris Bidjan Saberi, Lost&Found(Ria Dunn), Label Under Construction, Augusta/A1923, Rick Owens (The man himself in his own stuff. he's all around cool, black flag fan from the 80s, married to Karen Black. pretty jacked.) Important note: these things are shockingly, jaw droppingly expensive at retail, which I have never ever ever paid. I treat them like collectors items, which they kind of are. Stuff holds it's second hand pricing, and sometimes increases if you take care of it.

 

Also, this stuff is almost de-industrialized, hand made from specifically/ethically sourced materials, L.U.C. is particularly interesting in that he often uses old/deadstock fabric to make things. A recent hit was made out of midcentury military tent cloth. Garment makers are paid fairly. When you buy an $8 tee shirt at Uniqlo (which I have out of necessity) it had to be made for under $2. There is no moral way to do that. 

 

As far as comfort goes, you haven't experienced sartorial comfort until you've tried a Rick Owens double layer tee. The softest cotton I've ever felt!

[Apple Cider]

I'm still attempting to find places that are suited for fashionable plus-size women's lines that aren't super expensive. It's hard. 

 

As for cool summer clothes - I cannot get over Old Navy's foldover waist linen pants. They are SO comfy and are breezy. I have a pair in black and if you regularly deal with pants that dig into your waist, try these out. 

http://oldnavy.gap.com/browse/product.do?cid=1025364&vid=8&pid=407059012

[James]

What people wear at an event like E3 does not equal judging someone for what they wear day-to-day.

While I do broadly agree with you, and do think that there is a place for critiquing how people in E3 press conferences present themselves,* there is sometimes an implicit broader criticism contained in the specific criticism. When people say that those on stage should "wear something that doesn't look like garbage", they might not be telling you not to wear something that looks like garbage in your own time, but they're making pretty clear that they think that you are. It's an honest opinion that one is quite entitled to hold, but it's not necessarily polite to share it.

 

Not that there's been very many comments like that, but as someone who has very little interest in fashion beyond things that I personally find appealing, and also as someone who's probably a little over-sensitive and insecure, I quite often feel patronized by fashion proclamations (if you're wearing your clothes just so you must be some sort of ignorant idiot), which makes me feel defensive and bitter. Besides that, I find the way most fashion stuff presents itself very alienating. Fashion photography always seems to be a bunch of people I neither want to be like nor be around. I am probably just a stupid man-baby.

 

-------

 

 

* (although I think it speaks more of the company than of the individuals - you shouldn't have to be a sartorial expert to be a business executive, but a large company should be able to provide their business executives with the necessary guidance should they need it)

[Spenny]

How do you judge people then?  I have to think you do, because we all do.  Our brains are hardwired, both naturally and through our cultures, to make judgements about other people constantly, both positive and negative.  What you wear communicates all sorts of things.  Is this person showing good judgement by what they've worn in this situation?  What are they trying to communicate?

 

I don't think people should be mocked for what they wear, but going back to the origin of this thread, the whole E3 thing, I'm not convinced that was exactly what was going on with those articles.  If a publisher had a big event where the stage was an absolute disaster, full of dumb, crass things that felt out of place, I doubt anyone in this thread would have a problem with criticizing that or even mocking it (mocking the sets of E3 has certainly been a pasttime in gaming before).  Even though you would be literally mocking the visual presentation someone put together, exactly the same way someone puts together an outfit.  What people wear at an event like E3 does not equal judging someone for what they wear day-to-day.  People have taken what is a legitimate professional critique and made it about personal affront.  It comes down to the two questions I asked above.  At an event like E3, what kind of judgement was being shown by the people who dressed the presenters (since I doubt all of them dressed themselves with how obsessive PR is in video games)?  What were they trying to communicate?  In mocking the dress of people at E3, it's those questions that are being addressed, even if it was crude and ham fisted.  I would have appreciated some more nuanced pieces on the fashion of E3, but I'm not going to completely disregard what was written, because I do think there's an interesting kernel of thought there. 

 

After reading through the thread these were the two points I've felt very confused by. Seeing someone well dressed (and I stress well dressed, not just wearing expensive "in style" clothes) communicates a lot about the choices they make, i.e. if you can wear clothes that fit, are well matched, and fit the situation it says a lot to me that you are socially smart and creatively astute. When the guy on stage at E3 is wearing clothes that are ill-fit, poorly matched, out of style, and most importantly way inappropriate for what you're presenting, it tells me this guys an idiot and what he is talking about ain't important. He doesn't care, why should I?

[Zeusthecat]

 

You yourself said you have a disdain for importance people put on fashion (because of your personal history, which I both understand and sympathize with):

 

 

 

That disdain has come through several of the comments, to me.  And not just from you. 

 

 

How do you judge people then?  I have to think you do, because we all do.  Our brains are hardwired, both naturally and through our cultures, to make judgements about other people constantly, both positive and negative.  What you wear communicates all sorts of things.  Is this person showing good judgement by what they've worn in this situation?  What are they trying to communicate?

 

I don't think people should be mocked for what they wear, but going back to the origin of this thread, the whole E3 thing, I'm not convinced that was exactly what was going on with those articles.  If a publisher had a big event where the stage was an absolute disaster, full of dumb, crass things that felt out of place, I doubt anyone in this thread would have a problem with criticizing that or even mocking it (mocking the sets of E3 has certainly been a pasttime in gaming before).  Even though you would be literally mocking the visual presentation someone put together, exactly the same way someone puts together an outfit.  What people wear at an event like E3 does not equal judging someone for what they wear day-to-day.  People have taken what is a legitimate professional critique and made it about personal affront.  It comes down to the two questions I asked above.  At an event like E3, what kind of judgement was being shown by the people who dressed the presenters (since I doubt all of them dressed themselves with how obsessive PR is in video games)?  What were they trying to communicate?  In mocking the dress of people at E3, it's those questions that are being addressed, even if it was crude and ham fisted.  I would have appreciated some more nuanced pieces on the fashion of E3, but I'm not going to completely disregard what was written, because I do think there's an interesting kernel of thought there. 

 

I guess I feel like those two things are separate. It's fine to be totally into fashion and love it but I don't think it should be considered important. Is thinking something shouldn't be important the same as having a disdain for it? It's because of the importance some people place on it that it becomes this metric that people are judged on and I have a problem with that.

 

I can't tell if you're arguing that it should be okay to judge people on their fashion choices but that's kind of what I'm getting with your comment. Using the E3 example, would it then be fair to criticize someone who's fat for going on stage? They could lose weight right? Or they could make sure a more fit, attractive person goes onstage. Or what if a woman went onstage and didn't wear makeup? Would it be fair game to criticize her and talk about how ugly she was and how she could have looked so much better if she wore makeup?

 

I'm sorry, I'm just not buying the argument. It doesn't make sense that it should be considered fair game to criticize someone's clothing choices. Whether or not we all judge people based on inane metrics doesn't make it okay.

[James]

When the guy on stage at E3 is wearing clothes that are ill-fit, poorly matched, out of style, and most importantly way inappropriate for what you're presenting, it tells me this guys an idiot and what he is talking about ain't important. He doesn't care, why should I?

Because he's not talking about clothes? Like, would you ignore a brilliant mathematician because she was poorly-dressed?

 

I don't dispute that there is appropriate dress for an occasion, but the implication that good dress sense directly correlates to other competencies doesn't ring true for me. Which is unsurprising, given my lack of interest in clothes. Then again, I'm not very competent, so perhaps you're on to something.

[Spenny]

I was definitely being hyperbolic, and when presented with information I can digest it regardless of the clothes of the deliverer; I still would suggest it's made easier to digest that information when it's being presented by a more socially affluent person. That's just a deep desire in my animal brain right? This is true of everybody isn't it? I have to be more conscious of not being judgey, that's normal right, or am I a monster?

[James]

Of course it's normal. I'm just very defensive because I struggle not to extend the same judgements to myself.

 

I should say that I am finding this whole discussion valuable as a tiny tiny minuscule window into the world of constant criticism that a lot of people have to live in. That I can spend a lot of my time not thinking about it is a pretty profound privilege, obviously. That I fall to pieces at the slightest suggestion that I could possibly bear to look better probably says a great deal.

[Bjorn]

Because he's not talking about clothes? Like, would you ignore a brilliant mathematician because she was poorly-dressed?

 

I don't dispute that there is appropriate dress for an occasion, but the implication that good dress sense directly correlates to other competencies doesn't ring true for me. Which is unsurprising, given my lack of interest in clothes. Then again, I'm not very competent, so perhaps you're on to something.

 

I think there's a reason that people like Carl Sagan and Neil deGrasse Tyson end up being ambassadors to the sciences, because their social competence is as high as their science competence, including how they dress.

 

 

I guess I feel like those two things are separate. It's fine to be totally into fashion and love it but I don't think it should be considered important. Is thinking something shouldn't be important the same as having a disdain for it? It's because of the importance some people place on it that it becomes this metric that people are judged on and I have a problem with that.

 

I can't tell if you're arguing that it should be okay to judge people on their fashion choices but that's kind of what I'm getting with your comment. Using the E3 example, would it then be fair to criticize someone who's fat for going on stage? They could lose weight right? Or they could make sure a more fit, attractive person goes onstage. Or what if a woman went onstage and didn't wear makeup? Would it be fair game to criticize her and talk about how ugly she was and how she could have looked so much better if she wore makeup?

 

I'm sorry, I'm just not buying the argument. It doesn't make sense that it should be considered fair game to criticize someone's clothing choices. Whether or not we all judge people based on inane metrics doesn't make it okay.

 

I think that's a shitty and painfully unfair comparison to draw between something that is easily within ones control at a major industry event (putting on 4-6 pieces of clothes) versus altering your actual fucking flesh.  That actually demonstrates the kind of hostility I was referencing.  It's a straw man designed to try and show that I'm being shitty by showing any kind of interest in what people wear. 

 

The makeup question crosses over into some other territory.  Literally everyone who goes on stage at something like E3 should probably be wearing makeup (stage lights and all).  I do not think makeup should be an expectation or standard anyone, especially women, are held to anymore.  You can claim that I'm being hypocritical with that statement, and there might be some truth there, but I think there are differences between dressing well and putting on makeup. 

 

So do you think all forms of human communication should be free from judgement from other people?  What areas of communication are acceptable to judge other people on, and what ones aren't?

[Zeusthecat]

I think there's a reason that people like Carl Sagan and Neil deGrasse Tyson end up being ambassadors to the sciences, because their social competence is as high as their science competence, including how they dress.

 

 

 

I think that's a shitty and painfully unfair comparison to draw between something that is easily within ones control at a major industry event (putting on 4-6 pieces of clothes) versus altering your actual fucking flesh.  That actually demonstrates the kind of hostility I was referencing.  It's a straw man designed to try and show that I'm being shitty by showing any kind of interest in what people wear. 

 

The makeup question crosses over into some other territory.  Literally everyone who goes on stage at something like E3 should probably be wearing makeup (stage lights and all).  I do not think makeup should be an expectation or standard anyone, especially women, are held to anymore.  You can claim that I'm being hypocritical with that statement, and there might be some truth there, but I think there are differences between dressing well and putting on makeup. 

 

So do you think all forms of human communication should be free from judgement from other people?  What areas of communication are acceptable to judge other people on, and what ones aren't?

 

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you are being shitty and I don't think you are. I just disagree with your stance and I was using an extreme example to try to illustrate how ridiculous I find judging someone publicly for their physical appearance to be. It is such a subjective thing that I think only warrants criticism if you are specifically involved in something where that is the focus (like a fashion show or something). Presumably, the outfits people wore were chosen because someone thought they looked good. Even for people who don't care, they don't usually actively try to look terrible. I just don't think it's as simple as you make it out to be. If it were, there wouldn't be a whole industry dedicated to fashion criticism.

 

I hope I'm not misrepresenting your argument but it seems that you're saying that people should know what the societal norm is when it comes to fashion and should conform to it (in public events at least) if they don't want to invite criticism. And if they don't it is fair to criticize them, even if this person is in a venue that has nothing to do with fashion.

 

I do not think all forms of human communication should be free from judgment from other people. That's a pretty broad statement and I can think of plenty of examples of human communication where it is pretty fair game to judge someone based on the way they are communicating. But judging people based on what they wear or how they look is not, in my opinion. I know we all do it and we are all constantly judging people on stupid shit all the time but I don't think it is fair that we do that. It is one of the shittier aspects of humanity and it bothers me and I'm a hypocrite!

 

And again Bjorn, I'm sorry for being a dick. I have no idea why this conversation is getting me so fired up and I have immense respect for your opinions. I'm just trying to get these thoughts into words and not doing the greatest job.

[Dewar]

Fashion, what you wear, is also just another form of communication.  I really don't understand the overall hostility to it.  Of course there are all sorts of shitty elements to fashion, but the same is true of written, visual, and audio communication as well. It seems like the shitty elements of fashion are usually used to try and torpedo any interest in it at all in a way that isn't usually done with other things.

 

I would imagine that a fair portion of the folks in this thread (and perhaps in the video games industry in general) were the people that were mercilessly taunted at school for our appearance, whether it be clothes, weight, or other physical characteristics. No matter how much I look back at that time logically and say it shouldn't color my current views, it does, and comments to the same subjects now are going to make me defensive. Thankfully, I work in Tech and live in Seattle, both areas that tend to be more casual than most, so I don't have to think about it much.

 

My work requires business casual, and I don't like wearing jeans anyway, so I'm mostly in slacks or khakis with a button down shirt, or a polo shirt if it's especially hot. At home, I switch out for a t-shirt and I've been trying to get more of them that express my interests but aren't just black with a logo (thanks to the Thumbs for offering some color variety.) I've had a 10 year struggle to find a brand and style of pants that is of somewhat decent quality, somewhat cheap, and fits well. I thought I'd finally found a brand that works for me (Haggar has a nice run of $30 dress pants and $40 slacks) but then I had two in a row that broke the buckle within a week or two of me buying them so I guess their build quality has gone down some. Anyone have any recommendations for brands?

[James]

I think there's a reason that people like Carl Sagan and Neil deGrasse Tyson end up being ambassadors to the sciences, because their social competence is as high as their science competence, including how they dress.

It qualifies them as communicators and educators, but not as scientists. I think mainly I was reacting to "it tells me this guy's an idiot and what he's talking about is not important". I don't actually disagree that presentation is important for getting the results you want from a presentation (which is already basically theatre, so it's all about appearances), but that particular wording pushed some buttons for me, because there are all sorts of people who have and do make all manner of valuable contributions to humanity without paying much or any heed to their clothing beyond utility. Interest in fashion is not a requirement. It has value like there is value to being eloquent, but it's fine not to be eloquent and not to particularly pursue eloquence. To some people it just isn't important, or any great impediment. Could they benefit from working on it? Perhaps. Can I tell them they should, and that they ought to make it one of their interests? Well, I wouldn't.

 

BUT people will obviously be better able to give more convincing presentations (and otherwise communicate formally) if they are eloquent. Similar is true of good dress, I suppose.

 

 

(I am sorry that this thread still isn't actually about the specifics of fashion.)

[feelthedarkness]

i tried! 

[clyde]

i tried!

It was actually a very interesting read, I just had nothing to say about it. I'm interested. The idea of "secret labels" is really interesting. I've never heard of that.

[Bjorn]

I would imagine that a fair portion of the folks in this thread (and perhaps in the video games industry in general) were the people that were mercilessly taunted at school for our appearance, whether it be clothes, weight, or other physical characteristics. No matter how much I look back at that time logically and say it shouldn't color my current views, it does, and comments to the same subjects now are going to make me defensive. Thankfully, I work in Tech and live in Seattle, both areas that tend to be more casual than most, so I don't have to think about it much.

 

I agree with all that, and even fit that description.  I've been overweight most of my life, struggled with poor body image, have struggled to dress well.  Hell, I work from home and spend most days in sweats and t-shirts.  And this is one of those cases where a younger me 5-10 years ago likely would have reacted more like zeus or twig.  But I've flipped on how I feel about dress and presentation in the last few years.  Which I have some more thoughts on that, but I'll use those in my reply to zeus.

 

 

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you are being shitty and I don't think you are. I just disagree with your stance and I was using an extreme example to try to illustrate how ridiculous I find judging someone publicly for their physical appearance to be. It is such a subjective thing that I think only warrants criticism if you are specifically involved in something where that is the focus (like a fashion show or something). Presumably, the outfits people wore were chosen because someone thought they looked good. Even for people who don't care, they don't usually actively try to look terrible. I just don't think it's as simple as you make it out to be. If it were, there wouldn't be a whole industry dedicated to fashion criticism.

 

I hope I'm not misrepresenting your argument but it seems that you're saying that people should know what the societal norm is when it comes to fashion and should conform to it (in public events at least) if they don't want to invite criticism. And if they don't it is fair to criticize them, even if this person is in a venue that has nothing to do with fashion.

 

I do not think all forms of human communication should be free from judgment from other people. That's a pretty broad statement and I can think of plenty of examples of human communication where it is pretty fair game to judge someone based on the way they are communicating. But judging people based on what they wear or how they look is not, in my opinion. I know we all do it and we are all constantly judging people on stupid shit all the time but I don't think it is fair that we do that. It is one of the shittier aspects of humanity and it bothers me and I'm a hypocrite!

 

And again Bjorn, I'm sorry for being a dick. I have no idea why this conversation is getting me so fired up and I have immense respect for your opinions. I'm just trying to get these thoughts into words and not doing the greatest job.

 

Apology accepted, we all certainly sometimes get more worked up than intended on some subjects (lord knows I'm guilty of that). 

 

Fashion is a weird thing, and there are often shitty components to both "high fashion" culture and just how people treat each other day-to-day in regards to what we all wear.  And I don't think too much stock should be put into basing judgements off of people because of how they dress, but I also don't think it should be judgement free.  Moderation in all things.

 

I'm going to try and back this up to lay some more groundwork to explain my reaction to this stuff, which may also help explain why some people in this thread just want to talk about fashion.  I'm no expert, by any means, this is just the framework my own brain has cobbled together over the last few years thinking about this stuff.  Someone smarter than me has probably handled it more elegantly than me. 

 

So we often reference multiple types of "intelligence".  You might have professional intelligences like problem solving, math skills, etc.  Then emotional intelligence, EI or EQ depending on who you listen to (I kind of hate IQ, EQ and those shorthands, but some short of shorthand is useful).  And then social intelligence, which may have relationships to both professional and emotional, while still having some other unique components.  When someone dismisses fashion, one of the things they are dismissing is social intelligence, one of the core competencies that informs our entire culture.  Social and Emotional competencies have historically been viewed as more of the female realm, and thus undervalued, while professional competencies are heavily male associated and overvalued.  As far as I know, as we understand behavior more, we find that even in professional settings, high social and emotional competencies can actually be more valuable than the professional competencies.  There are a lot of reasons behind that, and human-to-human communication is a big one. 

 

Edited to add:  I meant to have another comment in that paragraph, that nerd/tech/gaming cultures have, in many ways, crazy undervalued both emotional and social intelligences, and even celebrates that undervaluing, which is something that annoys the hell out of me.  I think the reaction to fashion is in part formed by the decades of undervaluing our niche culture has done of the social and emotional intelligence.

 

Day-to-day fashion (to differentiate it from "high fashion" or fashion culture) matters because it is an easy way for someone to communicate their social intelligence or competence.  The ability to dress and present yourself well across multiple different social settings, from work, to industry event, to bbq to rock concert is an actual skill.  Now it can be radically unfair, some people are so attractive, confident or eccentric they can show up rocking some outfit and get praise for it while me showing up in the same outfit would be mocked.  But even that gets back to social intelligence, knowing what boundaries you personally are able to push and get away with it.  And I'm not meaning that this is some authoritarian set of rules where we are all expected to dress the same or adhere to external social pressure.  Far from it.  Having an internally developed sense of fashion allows one to do the opposite, to break social expectations in ways that still display your social competence.  And there's a radical difference between dressing sloppy (for lack of a better word) and dressing to push boundaries (like refusing to conform to racist dress expectations the way some minorities feel obligated to).  The interplay of race, class, taste, beauty, social norms, personal expression, etc., are fascinating. 

 

To tie this to feelthedarkness' post of punk fashion, I think it's a good illustration of what I'm talking about.  Many "squares" judged the hell out of the way punks dressed.  But the punks were actually displaying very high social competence.  They had two primary audiences their fashion was meant to communicate to, an in-group they wanted to impress and an out-group they wanted to offend.  So even though they were mocked and judged for what they wore by the out-group, their fashion was completely successful for them.  If the out-group would have complimented and told them what a lovely job they had done sewing that anarchy badge onto their pants, the fashion would have been likely been considered a failure. (I'm no expert at all on punk fashion and feelthedarkness can feel free to destroy me on my very basic and uniformed reading of the personal politics of punk fashion). 

 

So when you say something like that you disdain fashion, or don't think it should carry much, if any, import, I hear you communicating that you have no interest in (and by extension, many other people should agree with you) this rich tapestry of human expression and communication, a tapestry that literally unfurls behind us thousands of years to the dawn of recorded human history.  And I also hear you being dismissive of social competence in general (a subject I've spent a lot of time thinking about over the years for various reasons).  I don't want to put words into your mouth anymore than you want to put words into mine, I'm just trying to express the reading I am getting off of your posts. 

 

I don't entirely know how we go about talking about how someone dresses at a professional event without ending up coming off as being overly critical or even mocking of them (the level of snark in the E3 posts was over-the-top though).  Criticizing how someone dresses is a field full of fucking landmines, but I think there are times and places where it is perfectly reasonable to discuss how fashion is being presented. 

 

I had some other thoughts about tech fashion specifically, and the almost Peter Pan like maintenance of youth culture in the gaming industry (refusing to grow the fuck up), and I've totally lost the thread of where that was going.